Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[LethalWolfe]

Apple ditched Floppies long before everyone else and everyone screamed. They were right. They have starting ditching CD/DVD drives in favour of wifi and download, and I think that fairly soon, they'll be proved right. They held off on the old HD-DVD/Blu-ray thing because they hate to be wrong.

Apple took away the internal floppy drive but kept USB ports around so people could plug in things like external floppy drives. No such option exists for FW. By "started ditching" CD/DVD I assume you mean the Air since the rest of the computers do have optical drives. You can buy an optical drive for the Air and/or 'hijack' another computers optical drive. No such option exists for FW. They are currently holding off on Blu-ray but you've been able to burn a less-than-fully-functioning HD-DVD for years and, for a time, Apple even touted DVD SP as being first to market w/desktop HD burning.

Of course this all ignores the fact that every Mac made in the past decade or so, even the newly Macs, have FW w/the exception of the new MBs. I don't see that as a sign of Apple migrating away from FW. I see it as a sign of Apple removing a desirable feature to help separate to increasingly similar product lines.


Lethal

 

[Adey]

Like it or not, yes Apple do know more about what you want than you do. As do Microsoft and HP and Dell and a whole host of other companies. They build it you buy it. You don't innovate it. You don't dictate the future. You don;t design and make the products you use. They do. Sure, you'd love to think that it was all your idea all along and that you're not a sheep but if they (ALL of them) don't innovate then you have nothing.

Will Apple dropping firewire over time cripple the company? No. Harm the company short term? Maybe. Long term? No. Will it P you off? Yes, of course. And me too. What you want is what YOU want, not what everyone else wants. Apple don't drop viable products. They are very, very successful because they are not stupid. You may love firewire but it is an outdated, clumsy piece of kit and there is a very strong chance that soon it won't exist, despite your insistence that you are right and that a company who has (very, very, very) successfully served the audio/visual industry for 25 years are wrong.

I have two M-Audio Firewire ProjectMix I/O's and M-Audio still can't get the firewire to behave. Crashing when hot-swapping (so don't), crackles when turning on a second firewire device. M-Audio are very good at what they do but yes, they made a mistake going with firewire. It's worse than useless.

If you don't like it. Don't buy it. Put Apple out of business. But you'll be in a minority.

 

[Tosser]

[...]every Mac made in the past decade or so, even the newly Macs, have FW w/the exception of the new MBs. I don't see that as a sign of Apple migrating away from FW. I see it as a sign of Apple removing a desirable feature to help separate to increasingly similar product lines.

Yup, that may be all fine and dandy. But in the past they a) removed it from the iPod, b) removed the FW800 from the first MBP, reintroduced it with the inferior Agere chipset, and for a little while, they used the TI chipset again.

Now, stay with me here:
Today, there are:
No FW on the 13 incher
A single Agere FW in the 15 and 17 incher
And, to make matters worse: Even when buying a TI-chipset FW/Expresscard adaptor, the firewire is either not recognised or the audio has dropouts after a little while. The idea of course, is that not only have they a) removed fw from certain models, they have b) nixed half the ports on the remaining, and c) used an inferor and unuseable (to some of us) chipset, d) crippled the OS so it doesn't work properly even with an adaptor.

So, how do I know it's OS X not doing what it ought to be doing? Well, the adaptor works fine if you boot into Windows – be it XP or Vista.

The reason I'm writing this, is because to some of us, we don't even have a choice of buying another model. Unless, of course, we prefer the limiting hardware without being able to run the OS.

 

[sushi]

It might be too late at that point. Excluding FW from the MacBooks was a bad move, NT. And from what I'm seeing in this thread, Apple is going to find out just how bad a move it was.

Agree.

FW is something Mac users expect and use on a regular basis.

If space were the issue, I would much rather have FW800 than Ethernet. I can always get a USB to Ethernet dongle if needed.

BTW... how long are you expecting Apple to support firewire? Another six months? A year? 10 years? Will you be sending Apple an email letting them know when you're ready to move forward so that they can update their macs accordingly?

Well, the Mac Mini was recently released with FW800 up from FW400.

This would indicate that Apple still plans on supporting FW.

Makes no sense that they did not include FW on the MB unless it was a marketing move to force customers to upgrade to a MBP to use FW. Then again, a Mac Mini is no a pro machine, so Apple is not consistent.

With the backlash over the lack of FW on the MB, my guess is Rev B will include FW800.

Sigh!
Okay, do tell me how USB3 will be superior for people who want to:
Use target mode
Work with audio

Definitely. These are two important aspects of FW that currently cannot be duplicated with USB.

I see it as a sign of Apple removing a desirable feature to help separate to increasingly similar product lines.

This is the only thing that makes sense as to why they did this. IMHO, it was a big mistake for them to do so.

Hopefully they will rectify it in Rev B.

 

[Adey]

Despite my protestations, I actually agree that FW MAY still appear on future macs, and for months/years to come, despite the fact that I hate it. The thing is, it MAY not. Either way, I'm not a sheep and I won;t nod and smile and take it up the rear, but I do figure that these are decisions taken by TRUE experts in the field over many months of discussion. I may be wrong, but I believe that (perhaps incorrectly).

IF... and I mean IF... firewire is on the way out, then Apple know something we don't. I may not like it and I may stick with Windows/Mac or just Windows, but this is not a whim on their part. This is a business move.

 

[Adey]

Makes no sense that they did not include FW on the MB unless it was a marketing move to force customers to upgrade to a MBP to use FW. Then again, a Mac Mini is no a pro machine, so Apple is not consistent.

Or perhaps you're... you know. Wrong.

 

[Tosser]

Like it or not, yes Apple do know more about what you want than you do. As do Microsoft and HP and Dell and a whole host of other companies. They build it you buy it.

MS doesn't build laptops. And Apple certainly does not know more about I want than I do. You just lost any credibility that might have lingered.

You don't innovate it. You don't dictate the future. You don;t design and make the products you use. They do. Sure, you'd love to think that it was all your idea all along and that you're not a sheep but if they (ALL of them) don't innovate then you have nothing.

That's my point I use the products. I can't help but wonder how old you are? I'm serious, you come of as someone who thinks owning the hammer you got at your third birthday is all there is to it. Some of us actually have to put that hammer to use. Not just sit and stare at it.

Will Apple dropping firewire over time cripple the company? No. Harm the company short term? Maybe. Long term? No. Will it P you off? Yes, of course. And me too. What you want is what YOU want, not what everyone else wants.

Again, utterly missing, well everything.
Why should I let your LACK of needs dictate what I can and cannot use? What's next? Film makers should be using consumer cameras?

Apple don't drop viable products. They are very, very successful because they are not stupid. You may love firewire but it is an outdated, clumsy piece of kit

I thought you couldn't dig yourself deeper. You obviously have no clue whatsoever of anything you mouth off about.
And you STILL haven't responded to my very direct questions about very specific things about firewire and how this usb 3.0 will solve those things.
My guess? You have absolutely no clue about what audio work entails, no clue about film or tv production, and even no clue about what firewire really is. The only thing you're basing your arguments on is that apple nixed it, therefore it must be inferior to whatever you plugin your iPhone.

and there is a very strong chance that soon it won't exist, despite your insistence that you are right and that a company who has (very, very, very) successfully served the audio/visual industry for 25 years are wrong.

Fortunately, there are other companies offering firewire. Since not even USB 3.0 can do what firewire can, it will not die in mine or other industries until there is something that can do the same and do it better.

I have two M-Audio Firewire ProjectMix I/O's and M-Audio still can't get the firewire to behave. Crashing when hot-swapping (so don't), crackles when turning on a second firewire device. M-Audio are very good at what they do but yes, they made a mistake going with firewire.

Actualy, M-audio is low-end consumer paraphernalia. And just because you have had bad luck with a crappy company making those paraphernalia, you assume that it must be the firewire protocol? Please

It's worse than useless.

You should try out some proper firewire equipment on a computer where firewire works as it should work.

If you don't like it. Don't buy it. Put Apple out of business. But you'll be in a minority.

I didn't order a thinkpad out of anger or to put Apple out of business. I know that catering to the lowest common denominator (aka the iPod Crowd) is very lucrative. No, I bought a Thinkpad and that specific model of thinkpad, because it will allow me to do my work and be able to compete with my collegues. I can't use something that doesn't work or something I simply can't plug into –*no, don't give me the "update". I am not buying an MP3 recorder with inbuilt microphone either, just because my recorder and microphone set up (Sound Devices 722 and Schoeps CMXY - look them up) aren't something the iPod Crowd can't fit in their pocket or look great with in their favourite coffee shop.

 

[Adey]

My age? 46.

My profession? 12 years as Chief Engineer at a major studio in Switzerland working primarily under David Richards with Queen/Bowie among others. I now run my own studio and act as producer with two albums in the UK top 40 in the last two years.

Please don't try one-upmanship unless you're armed to do so and please don't make childish assumptions.

 

[Tosser]

Despite my protestations, I actually agree that FW MAY still appear on future macs, and for months/years to come, despite the fact that I hate it. The thing is, it MAY not. Either way, I'm not a sheep and I won;t nod and smile and take it up the rear,

Too late, you have already admitted that you let a big corporation make decisions on your behalf. Case in point:

but I do figure that these are decisions taken by TRUE experts in the field over many months of discussion. I may be wrong, but I believe that (perhaps incorrectly).

Apple aren't experts in any way when it comes to, say, film making, or audio work. Hell, not even photoshop. I cannot believe someone will admit to letting Apple make decisions on their behalf, and then actually go on, and argue that Apple knows more about the work done in specific pro niches than the pros themselves. Seriously, this has got to be the most idiotic thing I have encountered in this thread. And there's very hard competition in that field.

IF... and I mean IF... firewire is on the way out, then Apple know something we don't. I may not like it and I may stick with Windows/Mac or just Windows, but this is not a whim on their part. This is a business move.

Nothing like blind faith in a corporation.

Btw, going back and forth, switching this and that, removing stuff, only to bring it back and so on, constantly is certainly "whims". I don't care if it's a business move on their part on top of that. But I can't afford (time as well as money) to go whereever Apple wants me to go this particular month, only to go in the opposite direction the next. Those are whims, no matter how much you want them to be "moves". To me, who has to make a living, it's still whims.

 

[Adey]

Apple aren't experts in any way when it comes to, say, film making, or audio work.

Logic? - Too many artists to mention.
Final Cut? - Coen Brothers.

Hahahaha. We'll leave it there. I can see where the user name comes from now.

 

[Tosser]

My age? 46.

My profession? 12 years as Chief Engineer at a major studio in Switzerland working primarily under David Richards with Queen/Bowie among others. I now run my own studio and act as producer with two albums in the UK top 40 in the last two years.

Ah, yes, suuure you do
Seriously, if that were the case, you would know a bit about the audio field and the demands of pro audio. You wouldn't be saying that you let Apple decide your needs if you actually had needs - Especially in the audio field. And especially not if you worked as a chief engineer (audio engineer I presume the claim is?) for twelve years with pros. If you did so, you would realise that a constant stream of high bandwidth audio is a no-go for USB, and not be making such daft claims as the ones you have been making so far.

Please don't try one-upmanship unless you're armed to do so and please don't make childish assumptions.

It's true, though, your argumentation is that a three-year-old who has no clue as to what consitutes work and how a good hammer is necessary. He's perfectly happy with his plastic hammer.

I don't try to one-upmanship anyone. I know what I need. But I guess your next argument will be that Apple knows more about how an audio engineer works than the audio engineer himself. Well, in the case of your claimed work, that might be the case.

 

[NT1440]

Hahahaha. We'll leave it there. I can see where the user name comes from now.

Watch it man, that pendulum swings both ways......


I do love me some Queen tho.

 

[Tosser]

Logic? - Too many artists to mention.
Final Cut? - Coen Brothers.

Wow! I'm amazed. Truly and utterly amazed.
Just because I bought a Schoeps mic that doesn't mean schoeps knows about what I need, and how I go about my work.
Just because I bought a Thinkpad, that doesn't mean Lenovo knows about my work, how I work, and what my workflows are.
I have used a plethora of audio apps through my years, but that doesn't mean they know how I work.
And just because Apple bought another company to make what became Final Cut doesn't mean they know more about the work the individual do than the individual does.
Just because DPA provides mics for singers (as well as measurement mics) that doesn't mean they can sing as Pavarotti.

Hahahaha. We'll leave it there. I can see where the user name comes from now.

Speaking of a three-year-old ... Seriously, making fun of people's nicks and names are something most people stopped with in kindergarden.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Like it or not, yes Apple do know more about what you want than you do. As do Microsoft and HP and Dell and a whole host of other companies. They build it you buy it. You don't innovate it. You don't dictate the future. You don;t design and make the products you use. They do. Sure, you'd love to think that it was all your idea all along and that you're not a sheep but if they (ALL of them) don't innovate then you have nothing.

So Apple, MS, Dell, HP, etc., are all perfectly run companies that never make mistakes and never listen to anyone outside their own walls when developing a product? That's news to me. If you want to think Apple is flawless that's your opinion, but it's obviously not shared by everyone. I'm not in the market to buy a MB so it's lack of FW is no skin off my nose. I'm just stating my views on the situation.


Lethal

 

[sushi]

I now run my own studio and act as producer with two albums in the UK top 40 in the last two years.

Cool.

What albums?

Getting back to the FW issue. The two interfaces were designed with different intended purposes. Until USB can function the same as FW, I don't see it going away.

 

[localoid]

Like it or not, yes Apple do know more about what you want than you do. ...

You've been brainwashed -- obviously a result of years of exposure to Apple's propaganda.

There is a cure. It's called critical thinking.

 

[sushi]

You've been brainwashed -- obviously a result of years of exposure to Apple's propaganda.

There is a cure. It's called critical thinking.

Hey, what's wrong with SJ's RDF?

 

[localoid]

Hey, what's wrong with SJ's RDF?

 

[vvebsta]

I don't understand how anyone can say that Apple is dropping firewire when its on every piece of other machine they are selling minus the Air. Apple isn't dropping anything!

 

[Eric S.]

Despite my protestations, I actually agree that FW MAY still appear on future macs, and for months/years to come, despite the fact that I hate it.

In that case your argument is just a nullity. I don't think anyone would disagree that someday Firewire will be an obsolete technology and will no longer appear on Apple platforms. Every technology that has ever been, or ever will be, eventually becomes obsolete. But Apple is definitely not dropping it now, not when all the most recently released Macbook Pros, iMacs, Mac Pros, and the mini still feature it.

IF... and I mean IF... firewire is on the way out, then Apple know something we don't.

Kind of changing your story now, you know from:

Face it, they're ditching a technology that they intrinsically own.

Like it or not, yes Apple do know more about what you want than you do.

All evidence in this thread to the contrary.

 

[sushi]

Funny. Thanks for sharing.

I don't understand how anyone can say that Apple is dropping firewire when its on every piece of other machine they are selling minus the Air. Apple isn't dropping anything!

Some would say that the MBA dropping FW was the start. The MB the follow on and the start of a trend.

IMHO, that's BS. The new Mac Mini with FW800 (upgraded from FW400) runs completely contrary to this. I tend to agree with those that say it was a marketing concept to move folks into the MBP line if they want FW.

Here's my guess. The rumored netbook will be similar to the MBA. Then the MB will become a MBP. Apple will then have two line ups:

• MBA lineup with 10 and 13 inch displays.
  
• MBP lineup with 13, 15 and 17 inch displays.

Again, just a guess but it would slim down and clarify the lineup. Basically, the MBP models are for those who need full featured laptops and the MBA models are for those who can do with less and prefer a lighter and smaller form factor.

 

[cheesymogul]

So you're arguing your case out of what might be? Does "what might be" constitute a real choice? If someone needs a fw-equipped matte laptop _now_, they should consider what might be included in a future revision because you personally believe it will happen?

Actually I did exactly that by buying a used whitebook instead of a new one. Love the unibody design, but for my use it's a useless brick without FW. Expecting FW800 in rev. B. Will then sell my used Whitebook without losing as much money as I probably would with the January 09 version.

Already looking forward to hear the whining of the USB fanboys when the resale value of their 1G unibody Macbook drops like dead flies.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Hahahaha. We'll leave it there. I can see where the user name comes from now.

I already noticed that several pages back. This guy "lives" in this thread and for the past few months has done nothing but leave comment after negative comment. But yeah, it's funny:

By the way (just thought I'd throw this in for comic relief). One of my British friends just pointed out that in British English, "tosser" is synonymous with "wanker" or "jerk off." Maybe that was intentional? Who knows.

 

[Tosser]

I already noticed that several pages back. This guy "lives" in this thread and for the past few months has done nothing but leave comment after negative comment. But yeah, it's funny:

What's even sadder than someone fighting against ignorance are the ones following the thread and applauding the ignorance. Now, continue with your third-grader rhetorics about usernames

 

[chakosticks]

Perhaps Apple should make an iMac with an 8-Track tape deck or a 45/33 rpm turntable on it. You know, just in case one of you guys feels the urge to moan that you're getting left behind...?

Can I plug my firewire-based, state-of-the-art Digi 003 into an 8-Track Port? Because I don't know anyone who is selling $2000 8-track tapes that I would need a player for on my Macbook. I nominate you for the worst analogy ever.