Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[Evangelion]

There is no reason to cut it from their line of products.

Of course there is a reason. For starters it would make the computer more expensive and/or they would have to cut back on other features.

Third, I own many Mac's and if I'm on location shooting with Red I want the kit to be as light as possible.

That's a valid desire. But it seems that you need to get a MBP in the future. I don't really see how the weight-difference between MB and MBP is the determining factor here.

Anyway, many of the cams on that site are prosumer. Not professional cams. If you can't use MacBook with a prosumer cam then what kind of crap shooter are you going to connect it with...

One of the multitude of USB-using cameras that are displacing FireWire as we speak?

 

[Chaos123x]

Both tape and HDD are compressed.

AVCHD is very highly compressed.

HDV is also highly compress but not as much as AVCHD I think it is 4:0:1

Where is DV is 4:1:1

DVCPRO and DVCAM are 4:1:1 also.

DVCPRO 50 and Digital Betacam are 4:2:2

Uncompressed sometimes also means 4:4:4


For every 4 reds, it uses algebra to figure out what the blue and green are.

RGB

If something is Digital it is compressed!!!!! only analog can be truly uncompressed.

 

[Evangelion]

Which MacBook Pro would that be?

The new MacBook Pros that use the problematic Lucent (Agere) firewire chip that doesn't work with many/most of the Firewire audio devices?

then get an Expresscard that gives you additional FW-ports, bypassing the problematic built-in FW-controller. Same thing with Mac Pro: get an add-on card if this issue is so important to you.

And you still haven't explained what this issue has to do with removal of FW on the MacBook. This issue would not be fixed if MB had FW, because it would use the same controller as the MBP does. So why exactly are you whining about this problem on this thread, shouldn't you be whining on a separate thread? Thread that is about crappy FW-controller Apple is using? This thread is not it.

 

[Evangelion]

Why the hell did Apple think it was a great idea to put the battery indicator lights (BIL) on the side? - A BIL SHOULD be on the battery, not the side.

Why? So you have to turn the machine upside-down if you want to check the capacity of the battery? Sure, you now have the problem that you can't check the status of a extra battery. But I bet that about 98% of people have only one battery, and they keep it in their laptop all the time.

 

[localoid]

then get an Expresscard that gives you additional FW-ports, bypassing the problematic built-in FW-controller. Same thing with Mac Pro: get an add-on card if this issue is so important to you.

And you still haven't explained what this issue has to do with removal of FW on the MacBook. This issue would not be fixed if MB had FW, because it would use the same controller as the MBP does. So why exactly are you whining about this problem on this thread, shouldn't you be whining on a separate thread? Thread that is about crappy FW-controller Apple is using? This thread is not it.

Why are you whining about other people whining? Shouldn't you be whining about whining in a separate thread? Or in the other one whining about whining about whining? Or in the one whining about been forced to read threads and comments you don't like?

Here's the short version for you since you apparently came in late...

Apple was able to make the nearly perfect laptops for digital audio until about late-2007 or early 2008 when they suddenly lost it.

It's not a Zen Art. It doesn't require bricks, lasers, or robots to solve the problem. It's a really, really simple problem to solve. Use the damn TI chipset. You know, the one Apple used to use before 50 cents because a major accounting issue. The one that just plain worked.

So why are we talking about Firewire chips on the MBPs? Because this subject (of Apple's problematic Firewire chipsets) came up because of "the great advice" of the Apple apologists to "just get a MacBook Pro" (if the MacBook lacks Firewire). But it's not that simple is it? Because a so-called "pro" laptop with non-compatible Firewire isn't a real option.

 

[LillDrutten]

then get an Expresscard that gives you additional FW-ports, bypassing the problematic built-in FW-controller. Same thing with Mac Pro: get an add-on card if this issue is so important to you.

And you still haven't explained what this issue has to do with removal of FW on the MacBook. This issue would not be fixed if MB had FW, because it would use the same controller as the MBP does. So why exactly are you whining about this problem on this thread, shouldn't you be whining on a separate thread? Thread that is about crappy FW-controller Apple is using? This thread is not it.

It's about that none if the new macbooks are ready for pro audio. But at least you can add a express audio card or a express firewire on the MBP. But the new macbook is useless for music. But top end uses the express card for adding sata HD's.. The new MBP have one firewire less and the Agere chip on the last port.
I don't matter how you count them, the new macbook have less possibilites for the external hardware. But what about the new internal audio in the macbook's.
A solution for home studio users could be that the internal soundcard with optical connection was made to talk ADAT directly. Should works for me if they had it done with 64 sampels latency!

 

[toontra]

Who told you the aluminum Macbooks can't boot from USB? It doesn't sound right.

Are you claiming that they can boot from a USB clone? If so, what's the source of your info please?

 

[localoid]

...But at least you can add a express audio card or a express firewire on the MBP.

Having to do that is just so absurd. Apple should change their laptop's name to the MacBook Faux.

...A solution for home studio users could be that the internal soundcard with optical connection was made to talk ADAT directly. ...

ADAT. Great stuff but, now all the non-audio people giving advice and explaining why there is no problem will be even more confused.

 

[Evangelion]

Why are you whining about other people whining? Shouldn't you be whining about whining in a separate thread? Or in the other one whining about whining about whining? Or in the one whining about been forced to read threads and comments you don't like?

This thread is about the missing FW-port in the MacBook. This thread is NOT about the FW-controller Apple is using in their newer products. I really don't understand why you insist on having the discussion about the controller in this thread.

Here's the short version for you since you apparently came in late...

Apple was able to make the nearly perfect laptops for digital audio until about late-2007 or early 2008 when they suddenly lost it

And what does that have to do with the subject of this thread?

So why are we talking about Firewire chips on the MBPs? Because this subject (of Apple's problematic Firewire chipsets) came up because of "the great advice" of the Apple apologists to "just get a MacBook Pro" (if the MacBook lacks Firewire). But it's not that simple is it? Because a so-called "pro" laptop with non-compatible Firewire isn't a real option.

But how exactly would FW-equipped MacBook solve that problem? Hint: it wouldn't. So create a separate thread about the controller and go complain there.

It's about that none if the new macbooks are ready for pro audio. But at least you can add a express audio card or a express firewire on the MBP. But the new macbook is useless for music.

And like we have just heard, it would be almost equally as useless even if it had FW-port.

 

[flopticalcube]

Are you claiming that they can boot from a USB clone? If so, what's the source of your info please?

All MacBooks can. I have been doing just that for 2 years now.

 

[localoid]

This thread is about the missing FW-port in the MacBook. This thread is NOT about the FW-controller Apple is using in their newer products. I really don't understand why you insist on having the discussion about the controller in this thread.

And what does that have to do with the subject of this thread?

But how exactly would FW-equipped MacBook solve that problem? Hint: it wouldn't. So create a separate thread about the controller and go complain there.

And like we have just heard, it would be almost equally as useless even if it had FW-port.

You don't understand the issue because audio isn't an issue to you. Fine. You don't think it's a problem because it doesn't affect you. Fine. But don't go off on a rant about your desire to stop the discussion of the issue by those who are affected by it who do have real world knowledge about the issue.

 

[LillDrutten]

And like we have just heard, it would be almost equally as useless even if it had FW-port.

It would be very useful with a working FW-port. If working imply that it must be texas then it must be texas. But now there is none. It like a ferrari without wheels.

 

[toontra]

Backup/cloning

Regarding back-up, cloning and booting from a clone, here's a snippet from the leading back-up utility SuperDuper manual:

"USB drives have a large number of limitations regarding speed and – even if USB 2.0 Hi-Speed rated – can slow down to USB 1.x speeds when used in conjunction with slower devices.
So, if at all possible, please get a FireWire drive!"

 

[drstein13]

To the audio folks who have been contributing to the discussion:

Do we have a list of which Macs have the TI Firewire and which have the Agere chips? I was looking into getting a small audio controller but I want to make sure I get a Mac that won't have any problems with it.

(To think that we have to ask such questions now! I want the 'it just works' Apple back!)

Don't know if it's already mentioned but if you use an external firewire HD as a hub and then connect the audio unit everything will work as it should even on Agere chipset. Tested with RME fireface and WDMybook in iMac (early 2008). Direct connection is unusable. works great with the HD as a hub.

 

[Evangelion]

You don't understand the issue because audio isn't an issue to you. Fine.

Am I speaking latin or something? The FW-controller Apple uses might very well be crap. And it might be causing some real problems to people. But that has NOTHING to do with the subject of this thread!

Hell, why don't we start discussing the US Elections while we are at it?

You don't think it's a problem because it doesn't affect you. Fine. But don't go off on a rant about your desire to stop the discussion of the issue by those who are affected by it who do have real world knowledge about the issue.

I have no desire to stop the discussion about that problem. What I AM saying is that this thread is not about that problem! In case you haven't understood this yet, but we have separate threads that handle separate things. This thread is about SJ's comments regarding the missing FW-port in the MacBook, not about the FW-controller Apple is using.

 

[Evangelion]

It would be very useful with a working FW-port. If working imply that it must be texas then it must be texas. But now there is none. It like a ferrari without wheels.

As Localoid told, Apple uses crappy FW-controller, so in those cases at least, the FW-port would be next to useless.

 

[Cloudane]

Remove what?

*Awaits Microsoft's new ad: "I'm a PC, and I have Firewire"* - just to stir up trouble!

 

[LillDrutten]

As Localoid told, Apple uses crappy FW-controller, so in those cases at least, the FW-port would be next to useless.

Yes, but the MBP have one express card slot. You can add a working soundcard there or what ever you need. But the macbook dont have express nor firewire.

 

[Evangelion]

Yes, but the MBP have one express card slot. You can add a working soundcard there or what ever you need. But the macbook dont have express nor firewire.

then get a MBP. And calling the MB "ferrari without wheels" is totally overblown.

 

[LillDrutten]

then get a MBP. And calling the MB "ferrari without wheels" is totally overblown.

Yes you are right. it's more like a volvo without wheels.

 

[iEdd]

Haha, both the original analogy and the Volvo modification are surprisingly accurate, and clever.

 

[JoeG4]

I think the message Apple is trying to make is fairly clear:

They want you to buy a MBP.

Hey which would you rather have? A decent graphics chip or a firewire port? A matte screen under a nice glass surface, or a cheaper CCFL backlit LCD with glossy coating that has more orange peel than a Chevy Aveo?

Would you rather that sturdy aluminum case, or the shiny plastic outside that scratches up easier than the back of an iPod and the brittle plastic inside that develops cracks around the edges and turns green from sweat?

Would you rather have the black keyboard or the white keyboard that's a shade of white that doesn't match the grey-ish white plastic that the keyboard sits within on the white macbook?

Oh yeah, and there's also the 50/50 chance that you either get a MacBook with a screen that has terrible image quality due to too much dithering, or a MacBook with a washed out yellowish screen.

How do I know this? I have a last gen MacBook, my bro has a last gen MacBook, and one of my friends just traded his MacBook Pro for a last gen MacBook because he needed a smaller laptop that got better battery life.

I can assure you, the extra $200 and ($1299 vs $1099) and lack of firewire port (time to throw out your 8 year old mini-DV camera that's worth $25 in a garage sale) are worth it.

Maybe if you stop going to starbucks for a month, or stop having those "chevys nights" where you try to act cultural by eating fake Mexican food, or you save the money you were going to spend on that tacky LCD TV to watch "My Parent's House" in HD, you could actually afford to buy a decent computer.

I'm not a huge fan of Apple's decision either, but then again let's look at this:

where would you stick the firewire controller and port? Does the nvidia chipset even have a firewire controller? Would you get rid of one of the USB ports? Or would you have just gotten rid of the battery meter? It's not even big enough to make room for a firewire port anyway is it?

 

[MrCrowbar]

I think the message Apple is trying to make is fairly clear:

They want you to buy a MBP.

Hey which would you rather have? A decent graphics chip or a firewire port? A matte screen under a nice glass surface, or a cheaper CCFL backlit LCD with glossy coating that has more orange peel than a Chevy Aveo?

Would you rather that sturdy aluminum case, or the shiny plastic outside that scratches up easier than the back of an iPod and the brittle plastic inside that develops cracks around the edges and turns green from sweat?

Would you rather have the black keyboard or the white keyboard that's a shade of white that doesn't match the grey-ish white plastic that the keyboard sits within on the white macbook?

Oh yeah, and there's also the 50/50 chance that you either get a MacBook with a screen that has terrible image quality due to too much dithering, or a MacBook with a washed out yellowish screen.

How do I know this? I have a last gen MacBook, my bro has a last gen MacBook, and one of my friends just traded his MacBook Pro for a last gen MacBook because he needed a smaller laptop that got better battery life.

I can assure you, the extra $200 and ($1299 vs $1099) and lack of firewire port (time to throw out your 8 year old mini-DV camera that's worth $25 in a garage sale) are worth it.

Maybe if you stop going to starbucks for a month, or stop having those "chevys nights" where you try to act cultural by eating fake Mexican food, or you save the money you were going to spend on that tacky LCD TV to watch "My Parent's House" in HD, you could actually afford to buy a decent computer.

I'm not a huge fan of Apple's decision either, but then again let's look at this:

where would you stick the firewire controller and port? Does the nvidia chipset even have a firewire controller? Would you get rid of one of the USB ports? Or would you have just gotten rid of the battery meter? It's not even big enough to make room for a firewire port anyway is it?

You could remove the line-in and replace it with firewire. There are enough cheap way to use one small microphone (the built-in one, bluetooth headset, Apple's own microphone earbuds, Griffin iMic USB interface, etc.).

On the other hand: both the hard drive and the superdrive are now SATA. Imagine if the superdrive was removable (like on most bigger PC laptops) and you could slide in a "pro hub", basically Firewire 400, some more USB ports and maybe eSATA.

Apple's manufactureing process should be precise enough to cut a bigger slit into the case and put the cut out on the Superdrive and the "pro hub" so you can swap them out.

 

[Nuvi]

Most negative, every single Apple keynote has reactions like this, where you here after they introduced the Macbook Air and people said Apple was arrogant and would go down because of that, it was even worse than this, just shows how some people deal with change.

Sorry but I think this is different. I have never bothered to comment on these threads before although I've been reading MacRumors for years. I think Apple's screw ups are getting worse. Now Jobs is telling outright lies and nonsense on his private e-mails. This can't be good...

 

[Nuvi]

I can assure you, the extra $200 and ($1299 vs $1099) and lack of firewire port (time to throw out your 8 year old mini-DV camera that's worth $25 in a garage sale) are worth it.

Gee.. Have you ever used your own brain? Ever had a original thought? Get your facts straight and stop writing that bull. Every single decent camera or deck uses FW. None of them use USB that works with Mac. Try to get it in your thick skull of yours that consumer cams that use HDD or flash use such compression that image quality is just awful. The ones that produce acceptable image quality use FW. Take a look at Pana P2's, Sony XDCAM's, Red Cinema etc. etc. Hell, you can use FW to connect a DigitalBeta deck to your Mac and capture if necessary. Stop writing about something you know nothing about.