Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[yoak]

after using my new classic mbp on location for the first time, I have to say I missed the form factor of my old 12" iBook.
I would have been very happy to spend the same amount for a smaller mbp as long as I got the ports needed for my work

 

[BenRoethig]

I'm not sure it's possible from a technical standpoint, plus there are issues connecting two USB-A ports together.

Here's one opinion that it is possible, but would require an EFI firmware upgrade plus a special intelligent cable:

Yes, USB Target Disk Mode is Needed… Badly.

If Apple would come with a USB equivalent to TDM, it'd help with a lot of my reservations. I have never used firewire to connect devices, its getting increasingly hard to find one. I have used it more than once in target disk mode. Without it, I would have had to tear apart my ibook, grab the hard drive, and then put it in an external case.

 

[sushi]

I'm not sure it's possible from a technical standpoint, plus there are issues connecting two USB-A ports together.

Here's one opinion that it is possible, but would require an EFI firmware upgrade plus a special intelligent cable:

Yes, USB Target Disk Mode is Needed… Badly.

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing.

I was thinking along those lines.

How would Apple add this to USB? Target disk mode needs to be able to work independent of the CPU and how do you propose USB works without the CPU?

While maybe not true TDM like FW, the CPU could be used for this on the USB machine. This could be done with a Firmware update.

Note, I would much prefer a FW port installed. Just thinking of options.

 

[Chaos123x]

http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/17/goodbye-firewire-400/

 

[MagicWok]

http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/17/goodbye-firewire-400/

I was just gonna post this, video is funny

Someone send the vid to steve lol

 

[MacHappytjg]

I was just gonna post this, video is funny

Someone send the vid to steve lol

will do hah jk but its not like they got rid of firewire in all there machines tahts what this video is making it look like

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

will do hah jk but its not like they got rid of firewire in all there machines tahts what this video is making it look like

They seem to be phasing out firewire 400 (that's what the video is about). I bet by MacWorld it will be gone from all machines, and we'll just have 800.... except maybe in the Pro.

 

[phrehdd]

Firewire doesn't offer lower latency but it usually offers more bandwidth than usb.

The real issue is the better audio interfaces—the ones you'd prefer to buy—are Firewire. It's too bad Apple offers the ExpressCard on only the Pro as well—a Firewire expansion card would potentially solve a lot of gripes.

That's my take as well - just put the express card slot on all of their systems. Let people decide how they want to populate it.

I do believe the firewire decision was for several reasons. You can go anywhere and get a quickie usb gadget yet, not much for firewire. If Apple wanted to push firewire (back then) they would have dropped the 400 port and only have 800 with backwards compatibility, and push several 800 series accessories. - Alas, they did not and here we are today.

Most average users on Mac or PC are quite happy with USB or through lack of experience accept its speed as compared to fw400/800. As for me, I use all three depending on the project at hand.

- Phrehdd

 

[BenRoethig]

Most average users on Mac or PC are quite happy with USB or through lack of experience accept its speed as compared to fw400/800. As for me, I use all three depending on the project at hand.

And the above average users who Apple used to cater to. Has the Mac become merely Dell in a prettier package?

 

[chrisPA]

And the above average users who Apple used to cater to. Has the Mac become merely Dell in a prettier package?

...and with the significantly higher price tag! Exactly as you said, Apple seems to want to pull in the masses that do very little with their machines, but still charge a premium, apparently now for not much more than aesthetics.

 

[danny_w]

And the above average users who Apple used to cater to. Has the Mac become merely Dell in a prettier package?

No, because Dells offer far more connectivity choices than does Apple. In this case at least they (as well as most Windows laptops) are a far better buy.

 

[notjustjay]

No, because Dells offer far more connectivity choices than does Apple. In this case at least they (as well as most Windows laptops) are a far better buy.

I hate to admit it (and I know this is cliche on these forums) but after switching to the Mac in 2003, I'm starting to feel like the pendulum is swinging the other way. At least back then the expensive 12" PowerBook I bought was quite a technological marvel (it remains an Apple fan favourite to this day), and when I did the math against a comparably-spec'd Dell Latitude it came out about even. And it was perfect timing too, I dumped Windows just when viruses and spyware became the next big thing to deal with.

But Apple's decisions lately have given me cause for concern (movement to glossy-only displays, removal of Firewire, movement to proprietary mini DisplayPort, abandonment of the mini, MobileMe fiasco, multiple delays), amidst a time when the similarity between Macs and PC's are closer than ever. PC prices have plunged. PC's come in lots of form factors including sub-$500 netbooks. And of course PC's can even run OS X now.

At this point I'm an Apple user because that's where my existing time and money are invested. A few years ago I could have guaranteed you that my next computer purchase would be another Mac. Today, I'm not so sure -- it will be highly dependent on what Apple does in the next few years.

 

[cosmonaut23]

http://www.wewantfw.com/

...yes we do!

 

[BenRoethig]

I hate to admit it (and I know this is cliche on these forums) but after switching to the Mac in 2003, I'm starting to feel like the pendulum is swinging the other way. At least back then the expensive 12" PowerBook I bought was quite a technological marvel (it remains an Apple fan favourite to this day), and when I did the math against a comparably-spec'd Dell Latitude it came out about even. And it was perfect timing too, I dumped Windows just when viruses and spyware became the next big thing to deal with.

But Apple's decisions lately have given me cause for concern (movement to glossy-only displays, removal of Firewire, movement to proprietary mini DisplayPort, abandonment of the mini, MobileMe fiasco, multiple delays), amidst a time when the similarity between Macs and PC's are closer than ever. PC prices have plunged. PC's come in lots of form factors including sub-$500 netbooks. And of course PC's can even run OS X now.

At this point I'm an Apple user because that's where my existing time and money are invested. A few years ago I could have guaranteed you that my next computer purchase would be another Mac. Today, I'm not so sure -- it will be highly dependent on what Apple does in the next few years.

I've been using Macs since grade school in the early 90s, but to be honest I'm taking a very hard look at the development of windows 7. Its a very sad day when you start looking at Redmond and Round Rock for the experience you expect from Apple.

 

[phrehdd]

I've been using Macs since grade school in the early 90s, but to be honest I'm taking a very hard look at the development of windows 7. Its a very sad day when you start looking at Redmond and Round Rock for the experience you expect from Apple.

My story is when Vista came out, I knew* it was time to say goodbye to Microsoft. I fine it humourous that Unix/Linux which is really an old operating system still competes with Windows. OSX being no different in its origins being with Unix.

To me, overall, OSX is for my needs a better operating system than Windows. - But here we are today, victim to Job's OS in a box vision....his* box. Sad when the hardware falls behind the ability of the OS by intent. I'll be sticking with Apple and also revisiting Linux. The Apple model of dumping computers for new ones rather than simply updating parts irritates me and certainly is not part of a "Green" concept. It is a greedy marketing model and puts Jobs right up there with Gates in holding the home computer market hostage.

Yeah - Linux is looking better and better every day - sigh.

- Phrehdd

 

[notjustjay]

To me, overall, OSX is for my needs a better operating system than Windows. - But here we are today, victim to Job's OS in a box vision....his* box. Sad when the hardware falls behind the ability of the OS by intent. I'll be sticking with Apple and also revisiting Linux. The Apple model of dumping computers for new ones rather than simply updating parts irritates me and certainly is not part of a "Green" concept.

Which is why I'm really starting to seriously look into the hackintosh option. Seems like they're having quite a bit of success these days, and it would resolve all of the hardware issues (which is really Apple's major downside -- we're all agreed that we looooove the software and OS.)

 

[LillDrutten]

Which is why I'm really starting to seriously look into the hackintosh option. Seems like they're having quite a bit of success these days, and it would resolve all of the hardware issues (which is really Apple's major downside -- we're all agreed that we looooove the software and OS.)

iMac is the worst of them all. You need to replace the screen too. I dont understand why greenpace don't complains about that. A display should last 2 or 3 computers.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Has the Mac become merely Dell in a prettier package?

Gasp!!! No of course not...the stable OS and reliability are still there. As aggravating as no FireWire may be, removing one itty-bitty little port on one model doesn't make all the Macs resemble Dells.

iMac is the worst of them all. You need to replace the screen too. I dont understand why greenpace don't complains about that. A display should last 2 or 3 computers.

Greenpeace whines and complains about everything. When they run out of things to complain about, they'll start complaining that there's nothing to complain about.

Which is why I'm really starting to seriously look into the hackintosh option. Seems like they're having quite a bit of success these days, and it would resolve all of the hardware issues (which is really Apple's major downside -- we're all agreed that we looooove the software and OS.)

I'd like one too...but I've noticed something about pretty much ALL PC notebooks. If they have FireWire at ALL, it's always ONE measly little 4-pin port (which is for data only, no power)

I don't recall EVER having seen any PC notebook that had a 6-pin FW port, and NEVER have seen one with a 9-pin 800 port. Is there any particular reason for this?

EDIT: It's just that I've become spoiled to the Macs which tend to be encrusted with full-size FW ports, I guess.

 

[Tosser]

Gasp!!! No of course not...the stable OS and reliability are still there. As aggravating as no FireWire may be, removing one itty-bitty little port on one model doesn't make all the Macs resemble Dells.

Well, a lot of us think that the reliability and build quality we used to pay for is all but gone.

Further, this is not about just removing a single port from a single product. No, they removed FW from the iPods. Then at a later date (recently) they nixed the ability to power the thing from fw (through the inbuilt dock). When they introduced the MBP they nixed the FW800-port (first time).

Because of demand they reintroduced FW800 to the MBPs so it, once again, had both FW800 and FW400, only to introduce the agere (Lucent) chipset, rendering it useless for some of us. Then, when the latest iteration of portables came around, they nixed firewire completely from the MacBook, nixed a port (read "half of the ports") from the MB "Pro" and at the same time reintroduced the inferior Agere chipset.
This, while introducing the newest glassbooks, was followed up by Steve Jobs claiming that no recent video cameras used firewire, insinuating it was old technology, AND that they will be focusing on the lowest common denominator consumer.

Asking the question whether Apple has become Dell with prettier packaging doesn't come from out of the blue. Steve Jobs himself want Apple to be "Sony" – unfortunately, I think they're not up to it. And I don't even like Sonys products –*for a lot of reasons.


Regarding the OS, I actually haven't felt stable since Leopard came around. I had to reinstall Tiger until Leopard was "good enough" – at 10.5.3 or .4 I think. Hardly the "stable os" I used to use.

Apple used to set their aim high. They don't anymore. Hence the question of whether Apple has become Dells in prettier packages.

 

[editguy]

Well, a lot of us think that the reliability and build quality we used to pay for is all but gone.

Further, this is not about just removing a single port from a single product. No, they removed FW from the iPods. Then at a later date (recently) they nixed the ability to power the thing from fw (through the inbuilt dock). When they introduced the MBP they nixed the FW800-port (first time).

Because of demand they reintroduced FW800 to the MBPs so it, once again, had both FW800 and FW400, only to introduce the agere (Lucent) chipset, rendering it useless for some of us. Then, when the latest iteration of portables came around, they nixed firewire completely from the MacBook, nixed a port (read "half of the ports") from the MB "Pro" and at the same time reintroduced the inferior Agere chipset.
This, while introducing the newest glassbooks, was followed up by Steve Jobs claiming that no recent video cameras used firewire, insinuating it was old technology, AND that they will be focusing on the lowest common denominator consumer.

Asking the question whether Apple has become Dell with prettier packaging doesn't come from out of the blue. Steve Jobs himself want Apple to be "Sony" – unfortunately, I think they're not up to it. And I don't even like Sonys products –*for a lot of reasons.


Regarding the OS, I actually haven't felt stable since Leopard came around. I had to reinstall Tiger until Leopard was "good enough" – at 10.5.3 or .4 I think. Hardly the "stable os" I used to use.

Apple used to set their aim high. They don't anymore. Hence the question of whether Apple has become Dells in prettier packages.

100% Agreed!

I've been disappointed for some time and I think it took the firewire issue to bring it to a head. I have begun the transitions to PC's and it's not as painful as I expected. A few tweaks in Vista (with SP1) and it takes care of most of the "memory hog" issues. Also, it's been really stable. Do I prefer it over OSX? No, but the hardware options are helping me get over it. I can recommend fairly inexpensive laptops to my students and if they don't have firewire they have an expansion card slot so that firewire can be added.

I just wish some company would put together a killer Linux OS that would be an OSX competitor and that would cause software developers to be interested. That would be a real solution. Unfortunately, it will never happen.

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

Tonight, my friend's dad was asking about buying a new Mac laptop. He wanted something small and compact to do his work on. We said that there was a new Macbook out, but then told him it was lacking a firewire port. This completely soured him on buying one. We did say that the refurbed firewire Macbooks may still be available so he may get one of those. But the new Macbook? Forget about it.

 

[cosmonaut23]

I think all of us (well, maybe 95%) on this thread are agreed that removing Firewire from Macbooks was a terrible decision and that it bodes badly the future.

So what can we do? There are a couple of petitions, but I agree with others here that they will make precious little difference and Apple will ignore them, (if they even notice them). Direct feedback will likely be similarly ignored.

Money is clearly the only thing likely to sway the mighty Apple. To this end I have a suggestion:

Reviews!

Post product reviews. Lots of online sites allow this. Amazon (who sell lots of Macs) are a prime example, but there are many others. This could be a form of highly effective consumer democracy in this case. With enough negative reviews about this "downgrade" floating around, Apple could stand to lose tens if not hundreds of thousands of sales, thus forcing a rethink. Even if it just causes people to hold off on their new purchase to see what happens, that's enough. I would also suggest it's not only our prerogative as concerned Mac users, but our duty, seeing as we've heard that Apple sales staff have been lying to customers about there being a workaround using the ethernet port. We need to point out that there is no work around.

May I suggest that review should be succinct and informative. Rants are unlikely to be as effective as something factual and to the point.

Thoughts on this, anyone?

 

[editguy]

I think all of us (well, maybe 95%) on this thread are agreed that removing Firewire from Macbooks was a terrible decision and that it bodes badly the future.

So what can we do? There are a couple of petitions, but I agree with others here that they will make precious little difference and Apple will ignore them, (if they even notice them). Direct feedback will likely be similarly ignored.

Money is clearly the only thing likely to sway the mighty Apple. To this end I have a suggestion:

Reviews!

Post product reviews. Lots of online sites allow this. Amazon (who sell lots of Macs) are a prime example, but there are many others. This could be a form of highly effective consumer democracy in this case. With enough negative reviews about this "downgrade" floating around, Apple could stand to lose tens if not hundreds of thousands of sales, thus forcing a rethink. Even if it just causes people to hold off on their new purchase to see what happens, that's enough. I would also suggest it's not only our prerogative as concerned Mac users, but our duty, seeing as we've heard that Apple sales staff have been lying to customers about there being a workaround using the ethernet port. We need to point out that there is no work around.

May I suggest that review should be succinct and informative. Rants are unlikely to be as effective as something factual and to the point.

Thoughts on this, anyone?

I think that's an excellent idea! It has the potential (if enough people do it) to be more effective than any of the other suggestions that have been made. Money is the the only thing that could influence Apple to rethink their decision. I will be doing it post ASAP.

 

[motulist]

Money is clearly the only thing likely to sway the mighty Apple... Post product reviews.

Don't forget about the power of your nerd buying-advice. My friend was considering getting a new alu macbook even though it wasn't a netbook form factor that he's really really wanted for his next laptop. He always asks for my advice an any big decisions (computer related or otherwise) and I told him that it wasn't the form factor he wanted and it didn't have firewire, so he shouldn't buy it. And so he didn't.

 

[the Helix]

No FW, no sale!

I'm going to have to agree with the previous two posts. We need to let Apple know that it is just bad policy to dictate to clients what is in their "best" interest.

It is precisely this way of thinking that seriously hurt Microsoft. It is with regret that I see Apple starting to go down the same path.