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You pretty much do nothing but flame and insult people on this forum. What's your problem dude? You may not be intending to come off as a jerk, but that's how it is.

Well, you called me a smarty, I called you a smarty. If you don't want to get flamed and insulted, don't do it yourself. If you don't like my posts, no one is holding a gun to your head. Use the Ignore List function. There's plenty of people on mine.

My point still stands, you failed to grasp the context of my post. In the context, I was right that the ports were the same and thus had no impact on the current look or space taken by the connector. You were wrong in asserting the Type B argument because it didn't apply to the argument.
 

This article really looks like something ordered by Apple. Unnamed sources? The article is rather laughable, especially this part: "If Apple implements Light Peak, it would be a safe bet that Apple will have a lot to say about the technology--maybe with a catchy name in tow". Apple giving a name to a technology developed by Intel? This would be unusual to put it mildly. iLightPeak? I do not think so. I suspect that Apple was unhappy with the criticism Steve Jobs's stupid comment about USB 3.0 "not taking off" was getting in the press and the fact that Intel has just announced that it will support USB 3.0 in its chipsets (the timing was not good and made Steve look not so smart) and CNET decided to help them out.
 

but problem with Light peak is the ports would not be able to support USB 2.0 devices. Like the article pointed out a lot of things we plug into computers have zero use for the bandwithe 3.0 would provide them so they would have even less for light peak.
Put 3.0 on to something it could support the older legacy stuff and things that have no use for light peak speeds (printers, mice, keyboards ect). Light peak has no way to do that and I sure as hell would not want to pay the fees for a Light peak mouse that I have no use for or light peak flash drive. Yes I fill up my 8 gig flash drive with lots of smaller files or movies but hardly ever am I moving huge numbers at one time. Normally the flash drives are used to move files between school and home.
 
but problem with Light peak is the ports would not be able to support USB 2.0 devices. Like the article pointed out a lot of things we plug into computers have zero use for the bandwithe 3.0 would provide them so they would have even less for light peak.
Put 3.0 on to something it could support the older legacy stuff and things that have no use for light peak speeds (printers, mice, keyboards ect). Light peak has no way to do that and I sure as hell would not want to pay the fees for a Light peak mouse that I have no use for or light peak flash drive. Yes I fill up my 8 gig flash drive with lots of smaller files or movies but hardly ever am I moving huge numbers at one time. Normally the flash drives are used to move files between school and home.

Think of Apple account migration with Light Peak :cool:
 
LPBlog5.png

Amazing. Intel recycles elements from a demo from THREE YEARS ago for ironically USB 3.0 and folks think it is new, magical, and ingenious.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1034328/gelsinger-demos-usb-pice-toys

USB-3-0-cable-end.jpg



Elements of Light Peak are recycled elements of Intel's USB 3.0 optical work. In part, they stripped off USB 2.0 backward compatibility and expanded and re-targeted to transport more than just one protocol.
light_peak_slide.jpg


Even just over a year ago this USB tech recycling was highlighted (same source as image immediately above):
For one thing, the USB 3.0 specification explicitly accommodates optical lines in the cable's connector, a move to try to "future-proof" the standard. For another, when Intel demonstrated Light Peak, it used USB connectors on its prototypes. Ziller said in an interview that nothing should be read into that choice, but it was conspicuous nonetheless.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-10362246-264.html

I have doubts USB 3.0 will go to that "future proof" state. Light Peak will likely subsume that move, but that doesn't mean it won't reach wider adoption than LP. USB 4.0 is going to need to find something of value to other than just pure speed (i.e., more efficient, even lower overhead, even better low power modes, etc. ) .


that some tech guru is "amazed" in 2010 by this USB adapter recycling. Good grief! what rock where they hiding under for the last 3 years ?
 
Light Peak in Early 2011

Like I said. :)

https://www.macrumors.com/2010/11/04/light-peak-coming-in-early-2011-with-apple-at-forefront/

That, I believe is why Apple is foregoing USB 3.
Why adopt USB 3 now and have customers upset in a few months because they bought USB 3 peripherals. Sure you will have to get a new Mac to have Light Peak but Apple isn't into stop gaps, and this would be a very small gap, a few months. We are just having this berate now and Light Peak will be out shortly.

Apple gets behind what's next so you don't get stuck with old tech.
 
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A lot of people have mentioned that Apple will not adopt USB3 until Intel incorporates USB3 into their chipsets. I haven't seen anyone ask "why?" Intel seems to be late to the party. It would have been easy for them to add USB3 to their offerings. This should have been the clue that Lightpeak was close to being introduced. And that there will be enough transitional products in the works to make Lightpeak attractive to enough people to make it viable (at least in Intel's calculations).

Also note that there is usually an Apple event in January, and CES. I think January will be an interesting month. I will go further out on a limb and speculate that there will be new Mac Pros announced in January. They have the horse-power, the slots, and the extra space inside the case for the initial LP hardware that will initially be too big to easily fit into iMacs and portables. Plus, you're not going to hurt the consumer customer base if the first generation Mac Pros w/ LP have some glitches.

Once the glitches are sorted and the LP hardware is miniaturized, then expect LP on Apple's other products. imvho, oc.
 
A lot of people have mentioned that Apple will not adopt USB3 until Intel incorporates USB3 into their chipsets. I haven't seen anyone ask "why?" Intel seems to be late to the party. It would have been easy for them to add USB3 to their offerings.

No. It would not be easy.

1. For most of 2009 only one vendor has a USB 3.0 controller. working and fully certified. Right now there are only two in 2010. In a couple of months there will be 4.

It is not like this is some college senior homework assignment level of difficultly.

Right now there are zero 4 socket hub controllers certified.
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/10/20/renesas-working-two-new-usb-30-host-controllers/

2. Also mentioned in the above article AMD is leveraging off the Renesas (formerly NEC) solution. If it were trivially easy they'd use their own design.

3. Both USB 3.0 and LP have problems with limited available PCI-e v2 lanes. Many current motherboards are oversubscribed on PCI-e lanes. Another 5-10Gbps of bandwidth shoved into the I/O southbridge would get choked if other elements elements also trying to grab at bandwidth.
The southbridge hub needs more bandwidth in most designed. Right now you need to plug these discrete chips into the PCI-e v2.0 lanes of the northbridge (or CPU package ) to get the necessary bandwidth.

In part, the Intel (and possibly AMD) designs are waiting for PCI-e v3. ( for which need to add more bandwidth for anyway) and updated southbridge bus ( which hands out full PCI-e v2 lanes as opposed to the PCI-e v1 ones they do now).

In short, most of the current motherboard designs are choked on I/O bandwidth. There is no foundation to support common, multiple 5-10Gbps connections in addition to the other "normal" stuff need to do (GPU, SATA II , SATA III etc.)
SSD are also exposing how under allocated the bandwidth is.


4. Putting the USB 3.0 hub into the chipset is only half the problem. There has to be another set of chips in all the devices. There will be several implementations of that. Your hub must work with all of those to appear to be reliable. Before put into the core chipset where it is much harder to fix they wait till things settle down.

Intel and AMD are also waiting for a "client" chipset market to set up and stabilize. In part this means allowing the discrete hub controllers to get out there and get some traction before the core chipsets come out and wipe out the majority of that market.

5. USB 3.0 ( and LP too if include the transceivers ) are big. To implement USB 3.0 you have to include all the circuitry for USB 2.0 controller. Then add an additional controller to handle USB 3.0.

block_720200.gif

http://www2.renesas.com/usb/en/product/upd720200a.html

This will be much easier to do in coordination with a process shrink. Make the USB 2.0 footprint smaller and then add the USB 3.0 controller into the space freed up. Otherwise will make I/O Hub (southbridge) bigger. Actually, the package may get bigger anyway just due to increased pins. ( have dual networks. ) and need to dissipate a bit more heat.


6. xHCI ... http://www.intel.com/technology/usb/xhcispec.htm
there is another chicken-and-egg in that the OS need to catch up with the software support that USB 3.0 requires. Sure, the individual chipset vendors can cough out their own custom drivers, however at some point the OS ( Mac OS X , Windows 7 ) need default support that lines up with the default core chipset support. The more vendors need to coordinate the slower things tend to go.


Folks ignore all of the above and postulate some grand LP enabling conspiracy.

LP is moving faster through the early launch stages than USB 3.0 for a couple of reasons:

a. Intel is just reusing tech developed for USB 3.0 anyway. (back when USB3.0 had optical components). So yeah there is a "I'm right, you're wronng" element to it. Intel thinks it is time to get high performancee into the consumer market. Other USB folks want think it is too early ( increased costs not worth it). The latter are probably right on costs. Intel doesn't care about margins because only sells high margin stuff. Intel is right that need to capture a small volume market to eventually start the scaling process. (optical 10G Ethernet and Infiniband are not driving volume up. ) You need something that is in the millions for that 4-5 years from now can go into the billions with 2nd, 3rd generation derivates.

b. there is only one vendor. Screw the multiple vendors for the laser transceivers. They just turn light from 1/0 pulses to 1/0 electrons. Same transceivers can be used for Ethernet or Inifinband. They are not LP specific components. Right now the only controller is Intel's. There is no standard (other than Intel's ). When you are a monopoly then getting something out there can happen more quickly. That doesn't mean the market is going to adopt it. [ Apple is a monopoly for the Mac OS X market.... that doesn't mean the overall PC market has adopted it as the most widely adopted solution. LP has many of the same issues of being more expensive, one sourced, etc. ]




And that there will be enough transitional products in the works to make Lightpeak attractive to enough people to make it viable (at least in Intel's calculations).

LP is viable because it solves a significantly different problem than USB 3.0 does. There is some overlap but not so large that both solutions can't get traction.


I will go further out on a limb and speculate that there will be new Mac Pros announced in January.

Out on an extremely thin twig , not a limb.

apple just updated the Mac Pros. There nothing coming till minimally June more likely next August.



They have the horse-power, the slots, and the extra space inside the case for the initial LP hardware that will initially be too big to easily fit into iMacs and portables.

Apple could come out with a LP PCI-e card. That does not require a bringing out a new Mac Pro. Just drivers and the card. Zero motherboard design.
 
Apple could come out with a LP PCI-e card. That does not require a bringing out a new Mac Pro. Just drivers and the card. Zero motherboard design.

Excellent, thoughtful post. Too few of them show up here.

Apple doesn't even need to create a card - they can rebrand or resell one that's on the market. Just add drivers and testing.
 
Excellent overkill deconstruct60. The consumer space off the CPU is bandwidth starved right now and will continue to be in 2011. Sandy Bridge only gives us a few more PCIe 2.0 lanes but you'll still be limited to x20 on the processor with x16 reserved for the GPU(s) and another separate x4 2.0 to the PCH.

X58 and the future X68 are the only viable platforms for 2011.
 
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Given the blog sounds like it's written by an Apple fanboy, I wouldn't take ANY stock in what is said what-so-ever. In fact, "blogs" by their very nature aren't the most trustworthy sources of news to begin with since anyone with a computer can start one and with no way to verify anything they claim, they amount to glorified message board posts.

USB 3.0 will be a standard regardless whether Lightpeak takes off or not precisely because it's 100% backwards compatible with USB 2.0 and 1.x. Thus, there is absolutely no reason what-so-ever not to include it on every computer in existence in the future. Lightpeak is not designed to replace USB for current devices so as long as USB exists in any form, permanently withholding a better form of it would be beyond asinine...kind of like Apple not including USB 2.0 purely to push Firewire, which obviously was a stupid decision from day one since it doesn't take up any more space than just having USB 1.x and the relative costs are negligent, especially over time (as in the course of a single year).

Excellent, thoughtful post. Too few of them show up here.

Apple doesn't even need to create a card - they can rebrand or resell one that's on the market. Just add drivers and testing.

The only problem with that thinking is that they have shown little to no interest in doing this in the past. Where is the Apple USB 2.0 PCI card for PowerMacs, for example? The fact that they have chosen to remove the expansion port on the 15" MBP in favor of a lowly SD (only at that) card reader shows how much interest Apple has in expansion products period these days. They don't want to sell you a $40 Lightpeak card. They want to sell you a $2500-5000+ new computer as often as they possibly can. Anything they can do to practically force you to buy a computer sooner than you planned warrants a happy sticker from the boss at Apple. Profits are the bottom line and the only motivation at Apple beyond Steve's need to control anything and everything (which tends to interfere with otherwise good ideas like supporting Blu-Ray or OpenGL 4.x some time this century).

Now that doesn't mean someone else might not bring one to market (assuming Apple doesn't purposely withhold the license to manufacture the things; I'm sure Intel would have some say in that regard or at least I hope they will; otherwise Steve might succeed in making Lightpeak just as popular as Firewire 800 is, which is not that much at all).
 
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@ deconstruct60 Thank you. I learned more from your one post than just about all the others combined. And thanks, despite that it was my post you thoughtfully dissected, and then handed the back to me in neat slices.

I still think that the Mac Pros are set to be re-jigged. There are technical considerations, and there are marketing considerations. If Apple wants to create some excitement in the computer market, they need to do something "really out there". Other companies are closing the gap on the Apple "just works", and are following where Apple has gone in terms of small laptops, all-in-ones, etc. etc.

Creating a Mac Pro that radically changed how towers worked would fit that bill. It doesn't mess with mass consumer units, but Apple gets the tech media buzz that filters over to the consumer media. Apple annoys some of it's pro users, because their legacy peripherals won't be transferrable when their existing MP dies - but Apple gets new pro users because the new Mac Pro will have some compelling features. Plus the media buzz. So, maybe not a limb - but certainly something thicker than a twig, I think.

Thanks again.
 
but problem with Light peak is the ports would not be able to support USB 2.0 devices. Like the article pointed out a lot of things we plug into computers have zero use for the bandwithe 3.0 would provide them so they would have even less for light peak.
Put 3.0 on to something it could support the older legacy stuff and things that have no use for light peak speeds (printers, mice, keyboards ect). Light peak has no way to do that and I sure as hell would not want to pay the fees for a Light peak mouse that I have no use for or light peak flash drive. Yes I fill up my 8 gig flash drive with lots of smaller files or movies but hardly ever am I moving huge numbers at one time. Normally the flash drives are used to move files between school and home.

As I understand it, that's not strictly true. Whilst you would not be able to plug in a USB 2.0 device directly into the lightpeak port (probably) you would certainly be able to plug a usb hub (or similar) into the lightpeak port for all your usb2 devices. No doubt someone will build LP-USB adaptor as well.

Remember, Lightpeak is designed as a physical layer protocol - it can run anything on top of it. :)
 
As I understand it, that's not strictly true. Whilst you would not be able to plug in a USB 2.0 device directly into the lightpeak port (probably) you would certainly be able to plug a usb hub (or similar) into the lightpeak port for all your usb2 devices. No doubt someone will build LP-USB adaptor as well.

Remember, Lightpeak is designed as a physical layer protocol - it can run anything on top of it. :)
Problem is an adapter is a NOT and I repeat IS NOT an acceptable solution. Just not going to work on the get around. People do not want to fork out 30 bucks for an adapter.
Hell people do not use them. Take for example the USB to PS/2 adaptors. I have 2 of them in a spare parts bin but they came with older mice and keyboards. Hell the only reason they get even used are because it is a basic USB mouse and to keep a USB port freed up. My parents are using one on their computer but it is a basic 3 button USB mouse that is over 9 years old (and on its 3rd or 4th computer)

LP will be the same way. People do not want to get costly abaptors for it.
 
Compatibility is the winner so I think USB 3 will do well.

Maybe Intel will introduce it 'side by side' with USB 3 then letting the consumers decide. Just like the firewire port is next to usb ports.
 
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LMAO - apparently Light Peak is not taking off either

CNET reported today that "The initial version of Intel's Light Peak connection technology will not use light, as practical realities dictate more conventional technology, according to industry sources familiar with Intel's plans for Light Peak"

So, it's going to be regular copper. And Light Peak is supposed to serve as a transport layer for USB 3.0, SATA, DisplayPort etc.? It sounds fishy and it indicates that Light Peak is in trouble. Does it mean that Mac users will be stuck with USB 2.0 for a long while?
 
CNET reported today that "The initial version of Intel's Light Peak connection technology will not use light, as practical realities dictate more conventional technology, according to industry sources familiar with Intel's plans for Light Peak"

So, it's going to be regular copper. And Light Peak is supposed to serve as a transport layer for USB 3.0, SATA, DisplayPort etc.? It sounds fishy and it indicates that Light Peak is in trouble. Does it mean that Mac users will be stuck with USB 2.0 for a long while?

Well there goes the Light Peak will SAVE US ALL mentality.

All joking aside, just for compatibility reasons USB3.0 should be implemented. Anyone who argues otherwise is just arguing for the sake of arguing.
 
So many new technologies, so many to not support! Thanks, Steve-o!

I still love my iPod touch so at least he's doing something I like. Best hand held gaming device out there. Now that Apple's game guru has left, we'll see....
 
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