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Steve Jobs: USB 3 Not Taking Off At This Time
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Just keep in mind that this article was written by the same guy who wrote a couple of weeks ago that Intel would release Light Peak in the first half of 2011. This news was then repeated by every tech/news/Apple site in the World. So, it's the same source. And I suspected then and still do that Light Peak is not coming out any time soon (light or copper). Most likely Apple will adopt USB 3.0 as soon as Intel implement it in its chipsets (it was reported that Intel was working on this).
I wouldn't be surprised if Light Peak gets released during CES though as they've had a working prototype on for months now.
This working prototype was based on optical cable. It's not clear what copper-based "Light" peak even means. Could it simply be a USB 3.0 cable?
And the latest news on Light Peak is that it's not going to show up in any devices any time soon. It's all USB 3.0 for now (except Apple of course) as reported by PC World.
I know it's been a while.
I agree about in most situation USB3.0 and FW800 being negligible in speed, but most of the reviews I've seen have 3.0 beating it by a decent margin.
This is all of course dependent on the drives you're using and the files your transferring.
From what I see, Apple just has a thing about providing technology only when it's cheap and easy to implement (after everyone else has had it and Apple issues the usual FUD to keep it's users in the dark), or when they have the ability to hype it up and get it first.
Just like any other company.
Barefeats seems to show it easily getting almost 2x the speed as FW800 except with one adapter. Another factor is cost, FW800 enclosures are more expensive and a little harder to find too.
Nobody doubts USB 3.0 has promise, but so far a lot of people are seeing that promise is currently not being fulfilled. Head over to NewEgg and read the reviews of the USB 3.0 PCI-E cards when used with both USB 3.0 and USB 2.0 drives; people are seeing double, maybe triple the throughput, but not the order of magnitude increase they were hoping for. Maybe that's because of the PCI-E bus, and maybe USB 3.0 built into the mobo chipset will help, but Intel isn't currently interested in delivering USB 3.0 in their newest chipsets, and they have succeeded in freezing Nvida out of that market, so we may not see anything in that space for a while.
As far as USB 3.0 and FireWire 800 being equal, maybe for file transfers but that's it. As a musician I've been looking for the first major manufacturer to deliver a quality USB 3.0 audio interface but, for whatever reason, they just aren't out there. I'm reading that these may be a year or two away, maybe more. And USB 3.0 doesn't change the fact that all the overhead between devices still goes through the CPU (vs. FireWire where a dedicated control chip manages that communication). So without an actual reference implementation to test, we can only assume a CPU bound process with a USB 3.0 audio interface may be subject to the same Rice Krispies triplets (snap, crackle, and pop) that show up on a USB 2.0 audio interface.
Well, the FW800 enclosures are very easy to find. Newegg, Bestbuy, Macsales <<-- Especially these guess, and other have the cases and enclosure in droves. They do cost a bit more though.
I think the promise is being fulfilled totally, one can't expect to see 5x and 6x speed improvement with every situation though, and like you say, it will still be dependent on the rig, PCI card used, files being transferred, drivers, and a host of other issues.
There are HD video I/O boxes that take advantage of USB 3 that are getting getting mixed reviews, with the higher end stuff getting the better ones.
All in all, I think Apple is just going to wait until Intel starts giving the firmware and tech standard, instead of blazing any trails.
They're there, not necessarily easy to find. Newegg already has 4x as many USB 3 enclosures as it does FW800. Firewire 800 isn't an option in their "External Interface" selector in their external enclosure section.
The problem with this 'Firewire is still fine' argument is:
- Firewire performance is starting to look seriously poor, given the increasing size of media files, the increasing GB/$ of external mass storage and the speed of modern high density SATA 3 drives (and SSD).
- Apple has effectively killed Firewire as an interface. First it was the iPod, then the MacBook, then the MacBook air. Apple's lack of long term commitment to the interface is obvious, especially at the low end. Most musicians aren't rich, and they value portability... it's interesting to see manufacturers like RME, MOTU, Apogee all starting to migrate off Firewire-only devices
- Apple doesn't like eSATA. While the PC world have happily switched over to eSATA for external drives - easing the bandwidth bottleneck and effectively mitigating the low performance of USB 2 for this class of devices, Apple has not. Not only that, but only the 17inch MBP and the MacPro can actually have eSATA added - the rest of their machines cannot be upgraded.
So I think we're now in a situation where Firewire ran out of bandwidth and support too soon. The time for Apple to start building realistic successor was 6 to 12 months ago - and now we're well overdue a replacement. If LightPeak is still some distance away, and Intel is unwilling to support USB 3 this year, I really feel it will impact the usability of the Mac platform.
Where did I say, "FireWire is still fine"?
I essentially said, "USB 3.0 hasn't replaced FireWire 800".
I would love a viable FW replacement. For my needs, USB 3.0 isn't there yet (maybe not ever, due to it's architectural design; TBD). eSATA is storage only, so that's out. And LightPeak -- so far -- is vaporware.
AFAICT, FireWire is still my only viable option.
USB 3.0 is a very young interface, and I think you're incorrect to write it off so soon. No, it hasn't yet replaced FireWire 800 - certainly not for non-storage peripherals. But for storage, I expect it to eclipse FW 800 rapidly.
Have you seen the Bare Feats USB 3.0 testing? USB 3.0 performance absolutely blows away FW 800 today, and (if you read the 'counterpoint' at the bottom of the page) it's currently being held back to around 200MB/s by first generation interfaces.
Yes, you're right that USB 2.0 could be problematic with audio hardware - but was that a CPU issue or a software driver issue? I'm hearing great things about RMA's interfaces over USB 2.0 - very stable with low latency settings. Will USB 3.0 prove problematic too? Too early to say.
What's plain to me is that FW800 is now being seriously squeezed from both low and high end. I'm glad I don't have a lot invested in equipment that relies on it, because it is on borrowed time.
USB 3.0 should beat FW800 as it's got about 6x the available bandwidth! If any comparisons to FW800 are coming close it's due to the drive limitations, not USB 3.0.
Besides, try even finding a decent FW800 drive these days without having to either special order it or be limited to certain sizes at a given store. It's usually the last thing you find on a drive (more likely to find eSata even). I just bought a 3TB WD My Book on sale at Best Buy and it's USB 3.0/2.0 (I needed a larger whole house media drive; speed isn't the issue). It doesn't matter much, though since the drive is so slow to begin with. They didn't carry any Firewire 3TB drive enclosure setups period there. I think the largest I saw might have been 1TB. A year or two ago, they tended to have some models with FW800 at the largest sizes, but time moves on and when Apple released a Macbook with NO firewire, I think that send a message that even the niche Apple market doesn't care about Firewire anymore (well Apple doesn't so much anymore). What ever happened to FW3200? Apple dumped it for this Lightpeak thing that may or may not ever take off.
Apple used to care about being cutting edge and having the best possible hardware, at least on the high-end. Now they're more concerned about having the best possible PHONE hardware instead
while the Mac Pro usually sits for years on end with nothing much new to offer when it COULD offer a lot more. Macbook Pro models are more consumer than pro these days and Apple is dumping their server models (not that they ever really pushed them to begin with). Apple seems to have little to no interest in being a top notch computer company any more, which is probably why they dumped the "Computer" from Apple Computer some time ago. And that's what is sad about it, at least for some of us that care more about computers than smart phones.
you are seriously calling USB 3 young? its been on laptops every since last year in feb.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/03/asus-n82-and-n61-join-the-usb-3-0-laptop-party/
you cant possibly call 1 yr old technology new, thats ridiculous, every single new Asus sandybridge mother board as at least 2x USB 3 ports (even the the budget $80 boards)
Less than a year is new for a standard like that.
USB is 15 years old, Firewire about the same.
We were discussing how USB 3 uptake is good considering it's relative age (and I think USB 3 is promising and will succeed).
Do you have anything to add?
at what point does it become mature?
almost every socket 1155 board (sandybridge board) has USB 3
this thing has mainly USB 3
there are at least 4000+ products on newegg along thats USB 3
thats pretty mature to me
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We were talking about audio interfaces. Any of those with USB3?
Any Apple hardware with USB3?
(Any chance you could NOT post an enormous picture?)
(click to enlarge)
You shouldn't post images like that on MacRumours - people will start getting "port envy".
Yes, please use the "TIMG" tag instead of the "IMG" tag. After adding the image with the
TIMG will insert a thumbnail that's linked to the full-size image. An example is in my quote of yours.
If useful, add a "click to enlarge" message, since most people will have no feedback that the image is a thumb unless they mouse-over and notice the cursor change.
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You were perhaps. Some of us weren't. FW is endemic to audio interfaces because for years USB couldn't handle it and even USB 2.0 is sub-standard there. It's also largely a niche market (mostly for audio professionals and dedicated amateurs, at least for the kind of gear you're talking about). I can't even get M-Audio to fix their Midiman driver bug for Snow Leopard. I get MIDI timing lag every time I exit Logic Pro or reboot (survives sleep if I leave Logic Pro running) and it's been over 6 months and I'm not the only one with the problem. I wouldn't hold my breath for hardware updates.
Regardless, it makes sense for a tiny sub-market to hold off until their next major product comes out (for some that's not very often) or until market penetration is strong enough (without available FW) to warrant it. In other words, USB 3.0 will likely be added when they release their next hardware refreshes. Don't confuse "new" with market share. Apple, for example, is a tiny fraction of the overall home computer market. That doesn't make them "new".
Now hard drives are updated all the time compared to audio interfaces as they are mainstream products. Most newer hard drives now come standard with USB 3.0. I don't exactly buy drives all the time and even I have a USB 3.0 drive on my Mac setup already (3TB WD MyBook for my audio/video whole house media server setup).
WTF does Apple have to do with either a mainstream or mature market??? Look how long they took to adopt USB 2.0 even for goodness sake! They're hardly a good example to follow and are usually behind on everything in the world except CPUs for a few years now.
There's also the matter of Apple being largely dependent on Intel who is one of the few not doing it for reasons unknown (probably because they're planning to piggy-back their USB3 controller on top of Light Peak REAL soon).
Now if you're talking about specific Macs with USB 3.0, yes some have them. There are 3rd party cards for both Mac Pros and the Macbooks with the expansion port on them (like mine from 2008 when Macbook Pro still meant "Pro" and not "nice catchy name for our consumer line".
Any chance you could just admit you're wrong instead of arguing all day long to save face?
Ah, remember when apple used to blaze trails with computers? Those were the days. The rise of the mac was cool to watch.
And they're usually behind on CPUs as well....
The exceptions (the few times when Apple seemed to be in the lead) aren't as unique as the fans would like to believe.
The "first" with 3 GHz Xeons were higher wattage older chips that were binned from the existing ones. Apple used them, but other manufacturers waited for the new stepping that would do 3 GHz at lower wattage. Apple used CPUs that others rejected.
The "special CPU" for the first MacBook Air was a standard CPU in a smaller form factor package - and it was released to all manufacturers within weeks.
I'd like to point out that while Apple started the USB revolution, it took a long time for USB to become really mature. Many of you may be too young to remember this, but in the early days of USB, devices would regularly vanish off the USB bus, and you had to reconnect them in order for them to start working again. This included keyboards, mice, printers, etc... In addition, hubs failed so often that it was almost beneficial to have spares on hand.
Even if USB3 supposedly has five times the theoretical available bandwidth of FW800, that doesn't mean it's going to be fast. USB2 supposedly has 20% more bandwidth than FW400, but in reality, it's roughly half as fast, if even that. Therefore, without seeing any benchmarks, I would expect that a huge speed boost to USB3 might bring it on par with FW800, if not make it just a tiny little bit faster. I'm not drooling over USB3, considering how bad every version of USB before it has been.
The only thing USB has going for it is that absolutely everything supports it. My freaking Blu-Ray player even has a USB port on it. It's more ubiquitous than Java. Ironically, I would expect to see USB on a coffee maker before seeing Java on it.
Even if USB3 supposedly has five times the theoretical available bandwidth of FW800, that doesn't mean it's going to be fast. USB2 supposedly has 20% more bandwidth than FW400, but in reality, it's roughly half as fast, if even that. Therefore, without seeing any benchmarks, I would expect that a huge speed boost to USB3 might bring it on par with FW800, if not make it just a tiny little bit faster. I'm not drooling over USB3, considering how bad every version of USB before it has been.
The only thing USB has going for it is that absolutely everything supports it. My freaking Blu-Ray player even has a USB port on it. It's more ubiquitous than Java. Ironically, I would expect to see USB on a coffee maker before seeing Java on it.
I'd like to point out that while Apple started the USB revolution, it took a long time for USB to become really mature. Many of you may be too young to remember this, but in the early days of USB, devices would regularly vanish off the USB bus, and you had to reconnect them in order for them to start working again. This included keyboards, mice, printers, etc... In addition, hubs failed so often that it was almost beneficial to have spares on hand.
Even if USB3 supposedly has five times the theoretical available bandwidth of FW800, that doesn't mean it's going to be fast. USB2 supposedly has 20% more bandwidth than FW400, but in reality, it's roughly half as fast, if even that. Therefore, without seeing any benchmarks, I would expect that a huge speed boost to USB3 might bring it on par with FW800, if not make it just a tiny little bit faster. I'm not drooling over USB3, considering how bad every version of USB before it has been.
The only thing USB has going for it is that absolutely everything supports it. My freaking Blu-Ray player even has a USB port on it. It's more ubiquitous than Java. Ironically, I would expect to see USB on a coffee maker before seeing Java on it.
You are plain wrong. There is no need to guesstimate these things anymore. Here are the real test data from anandtech.com:
Windows Performance Comparison
---------------------------------
Seagate GoFlex Desk 3TB (USB 2.0) Seagate GoFlex Desk 3TB (USB 3.0)
Sequential Read 33.1 MB/s 151.9 MB/s
Sequential Write 26.9 MB/s 151.2 MB/s
Mac Performance Comparison - XBench 1.3
-------------------------------------------------
Seagate GoFlex Desk 3TB (USB 2.0) Seagate GoFlex Desk 3TB (FireWire 800)
Sequential Read 17.0 MB/s 74.9 MB/s
Sequential Write 15.8 MB/s 47.6 MB/s
BTW, note how much slower USB 2.0 is on Mac than on Windows which probably explains your confusion about the benefits of FireWire (as in comparing the speeds of USB 2.0 vs FireWire on Macs provides rather skewed picture).
And given that in case of USB 3.0 these speeds may be limited by the drive the speed difference for interfaces might be even more substantial.
There are benchmarks, FW800 sucks
http://www.barefeats.com/hard136.html
USB 3.0 twice as fast as FW800.
http://www.barefeats.com/hard136.html
USB 3.0 twice as fast as FW800.