Steve Jobs' Wall Street Journal Visit Reportedly Included Arguments Against Flash

[Opiyum]

Huge service to the internet?!!! Now I understand how Jonestown can be possible.

Jobs doesn't want Flash, because he wants to keep you from accessing outside entertainment content. He sees a huge potential in being the middleman between you and the media, be it movies, TV, games or apps.

Flash throws a wrench in his plan. As does Silverlight.

Have you asked yourself, why Silverlight is not on the iPad either? Does it crash Macs too? Or is it because you might stream from Netflix, instead of paying iTunes.

Great service to the internet, indeed. Oh, and I didn't know that the proprietary H.264 is in the "true spirit of the internet" either.

I can understand why Jobs does it, even if I hate it. But I never thought so many of my fellow Mac users are so damned naive, and uninformed.

I do understand your opinion, and do not doubt that your argument is true, at least to a degree. I do however agree both with Jobs main point about battery life, and Flash as an old technology.

Strictly on the basis of old tech and battery life I am very excited that somebody has the balls to stand up and say NO! to Flash. It's a tech that is anti-internet, anti-html, anti-web browser and was only created with greed in mind from it's very inception. It's too hard to make a good cross browser html authoring environment using html so we'll just create our own version of the internet that uses our own browser and we'll call it Flash! Then we'll make a plug-in to put our "browser" inside an actual web browser.The design of the web and html at it's core is device and browser independent. Unfortunately for all of us we are still suffering from Microsoft/Netscape not following the standard and/or adding their own unofficial additions to html tricking us developers to write web browser specific code, when the real solution is simple - we should all only write to the spec and never ever write code for a browser. We the people of the internets have the power! Stand up and FIGHT; say NO! to Flash.

 

[Havas]

I respectfully disagree with this statement.

Yes I agree about Flash, that's what I said previously, the only value Flash provides is that of an authoring tool. My contention is that it need not output to it's own data format to do what it does as an authoring tool. It bypasses what the internet is and what web browsers were designed to do, render web content. In the case of Flash, your browser is just a vector for Flash and isn't acting as a real cross platform device independent internet browser.

One note. I am a developer of web apps, OSX apps, and iPhone apps and have been creating full fledged large scale enterprise class web apps since 1995 on NeXT's, before Macromedia even released Flash. I saw Flash when it was introduced and have seen it progress (infect) web sites and occasionally actually used well also. That said...

Instead of creating a web app for your client that runs in a web browser they get a Flash application that runs in the Flash player in (a few) web browsers and on desktops as stand alone apps? So, IMO, it's just another implementation of Java, but not nearly as good at most things and better at some others. I can understand how and why you and your client are fooling yourselves into this understanding, not that I personally have a currently available solution, I don't... My point is, why SHOULD Flash be needed? Flash is an end run around html to avoid a bunch of technical difficulties with browser rendering implementations and continually evolving web standards.

For example I can use a text editor to write OS X apps, but I do not. Instead I use a development environment (aka Authoring Tool). It does a bunch of things for me that I would otherwise need to do manually, increasing my productivity.

I'm not talking about a dumb old school WYSIWYG html editor, but a real html authoring tool or development environment. It should take care of the cross browser stuff for you and generate code to the spec.

Let me sum up. We need a multi pronged approach. Web browsers need rendering tests akin to the javascript stuff out there to judge how compliant/complete they are (maybe they already exist, IDK), we need to author code to the html spec instead of a specific browser or browsers and the browsers need to be viewed as broken instead of the web sites that are written to spec but rendered incorrectly in a specific browser, and we need real development environments / authoring tools that generate smart and optimized html/javascript content to the html spec.

I understand where you are comming from but you are still thinking outside the Box. You are thinking of only Flash CS4 authoring tool but Flash is now called Flash platform and consists of the following:

1: Flash Authoring (Games/Banners/Time line animation) (Crap you see on sites)

2: Flex (OO based Actionscript 3 for developing proper web applications and websites)

3: AIR (OO based Actionscript 3 for developing desktop based applications that are cross platform)

4: Mobile SDK (oo based for developing optimized mobile interfaces)

Now when you look at the whole Flash platform and the fact that you can achieve 2, 3 and 4 with the same source code you see why the Flash player is required? If there was no flash player plug in you would not be able to achieve the seamless experience we have now it would go back to relying on the Browser implementation of which we already know does not work very well.

And how would you run the apps on the desktop? Let me guess you would go build one for Mac using their tools and then go build one for windows using their tools and try to make them both look/behave the same? Wow what a glorious waste of money and this is why companies are riding the Flex bandwagon and it's only picking up more and more steam especially with Air 2 and Flash 10.1.

Company = Profit = What solution will make us the most money...

As for the Adobe is tying you down argument, thats a load of balls Apple ties you down when you use their SDK and so does Microsoft you put in all that effort and it's tied to their platform.

 

[Opiyum]

The Opera people got very clever and made a web browser where all the rendering is run on their own servers and it returns a completed product into the web browser. So they don't bring an alternate rendering engine onto the iPhone.

Yes, but how are they not rendering on the phone? Their proxies are sending web content to the phone, which is not an image of a web page. Sure, it's sending an optimized/simplified/pre-evaluated version of the web page content to the app on the phone, but how is the app not rendering the content into something that looks like a web page. Maybe that's semantics or a grey area, but it's a judgment call Apple will make one way or the other. I'm sure they will do what they see as "In their best interest". Just saying.

 

[macUser2007]

Why is Spotify in the App Store? You might pay 10 bucks a month to Spotify for unlimited streaming music, instead of buying songs from Apple.

Maybe the "10 bucks a month" and "streaming music" should have given you a clue. As well as the fact that paid Spotify accounts are not available in the US, Canada, or most other countries.

You smoke too much of it...

Well you are doing your client a dis-service. Have you actually done any testing or research on how people use web pages, or what different elements actually attract people to do certain behaviors?

What kinds of goals do your clients give you for your web sites? To make them look cool?

Why is your client asking for you to do stuff with flash? Because they don't know any better is likely why. Seems like you should be the one who is educated and leading them into a better direction. Not to be rude, but I suggest you invest some real time in getting into the nitty gritty of website evaluation in terms of what actual gets people to act, and how minor little changes can change click through rates by 10%, 20%, 50%.

...

Not to be rude, but it sounds like you do commodity websites, ala "XXXElectronics.net"

Look around. A whole bunch of very large, very savvy companies, like Nike (and almost all of the better sportswear companies), or Disney, employ Flash heavily, sometimes entirely.

Flash looks good, its robust, and its target users enjoy it and like it. Flash also has one of the largest adoption rates of any web technology.

Go tell them about your research..., I can hear them laughing already.

You are the one doing "dis-service" to your clients, by spreading FUD, to show them how "in the know" you are. Phew!

 

[AndyR]

Good Article

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10627234

I'm starting to lose respect for Mr Jobs now though.

 

[Otaviano]

Maybe the "10 bucks a month" and "streaming music" should have given you a clue. As well as the fact that paid Spotify accounts are not available in the US, Canada, or most other countries.

You smoke too much of it...

Don't be a smart a$$, it's available in the EU where Apple has a very strong presence with iTunes and it's directly competing with that. Aside from being a music streaming service, any song can be bought for the same price as a song in iTunes and it has an offline function where any playlist is downloaded into the iPhone and stored there.

For all the talk about Apple blocking Flash because it would cut into their business model, I have given a perfect example of an application that is competing directly with one of Apple's most successful services. It's available right now and Apple doesn't make a dime from it and is likely losing sales in iTunes as a result from it.

It's coming to the US this year, Canada ... well no one cares about Canada maybe in 2011

I have not seen any serious examples of services being banned because they cut into App Store or iTunes profits. Google Voice? AT&T's problem not Apple's. Opera Mini, would not affect Apple profits in any way.

So where are these examples?

Spotify isn't even a lone example because more and more European TV stations are launching apps for their TV channels and some of the programming they make available is programming that is available via iTunes.

I don't smoke, it's a filthy habit.

 

[Opiyum]

I understand where you are comming from but you are still thinking outside the Box. You are thinking of only Flash CS4 authoring tool but Flash is now called Flash platform and consists of the following:

1: Flash Authoring (Games/Banners/Time line animation) (Crap you see on sites)

2: Flex (OO based Actionscript 3 for developing proper web applications and websites)

3: AIR (OO based Actionscript 3 for developing desktop based applications that are cross platform)

4: Mobile SDK (oo based for developing optimized mobile interfaces)

Now when you look at the whole Flash platform and the fact that you can achieve 2, 3 and 4 with the same source code you see why the Flash player is required? If there was no flash player plug in you would not be able to achieve the seamless experience we have now it would go back to relying on the Browser implementation of which we already know does not work very well.

And how would you run the apps on the desktop? Let me guess you would go build one for Mac using their tools and then go build one for windows using their tools and try to make them both look/behave the same? Wow what a glorious waste of money and this is why companies are riding the Flex bandwagon and it's only picking up more and more steam especially with Air 2 and Flash 10.1.

Company = Profit = What solution will make us the most money...

As for the Adobe is tying you down argument, thats a load of balls Apple ties you down when you use their SDK and so does Microsoft you put in all that effort and it's tied to their platform.

Yes, I know it's a platform / foundation API etc. This has been done many times and it's always failed in the long run to date. Maybe Flash finally got it right, IDK, I guess we'll see in 5 or 10 years where it's at.

I'm just saying that Flash == Flash API && Flash != internet / web / html / javascript and as such IS NOT the technology / platform / foundation API of the world wide web which is in fact html / javascript / css / etc (I'll just use html). Also, be sure to not fool yourself, Flash IS NOT cross platform, it only runs where you have a Flash compiler. I do not know how good the compiler is or if it compiles to the native platform API or it's own, but I would guess that it doesn't look exactly like a windows app on windows and a Mac app on OSX. Please correct me if it does, but my hunch is it looks like a little bit like a Flash app on both.

I have no illusions about Apple or Microsoft locking you into their tech and that is exactly my point in fact. I have no problem whatsoever with Flash existing, except when it's on a web page or when I run a really bad desktop application that was written poorly. Maybe you write really good Flash apps, IDK, but to my knowledge I've never used one that was actually on par with a native platform app. Personally I find almost all uses of flash on websites very annoying and turn them off by default in Safari on OSX - they show up as grey boxes labeled "Flash" and I can click them to load them if the site does not offer an alternative I usually do just that. In my opinion, web sites would benefit greatly from adding logic to automatically substitute html content instead of Flash content when flash is either not detected or the user has specified that they do not want to use Flash on a web site, and should never show that error "Flash is not installed or out of date. Download the current version here."

A Web Browser does not and should not be required to execute Flash, sure they can offer a plug-in for my browser and I'll use it when I am forced to when I am able, but it's not part of the html API. The web should only require a web browser other content is optional, and should not be required of your users as it's not part of the API. It's just an extra.

Although different, Jobs made the same sort of tech choice when Apple did not support floppy disks on the iMac. The PC industry at the time was really "shocked". I remember a quote from the CEO of Dell saying "That is not a choice I would have made". This is one of the huge value's of Apple. They push things forward. My PC does not have a floppy drive. I don't know when they started not including them by default, but I'll bet my PC would have one right now if Jobs didn't make that decision for the iMac. I'm off topic, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[JackAxe]

Flash has to go, its just not acceptable for Battery powered mobile Products, it makes your CPU go like your playing the latest 3D kick ass Game, and what you get for that is just a little flash & maybe a crash.

wehay I rymed.

Getsome!

It does... Really...

These people disagree with you, as do I.

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

It does... Really...

These people disagree with you, as do I.

OMG!

So Dell Mini 5 WILL run Flash 10.1 (and above)

This is it...

Bye bye iPod Touch - Dell here I come!

This is exactly the device I was keeping an eye on for some time but wasn't sure about Flash support...

Awesome!

 

[Otaviano]

OMG!

So Dell Mini 5 WILL run Flash 10.1 (and above)

This is it...

Bye bye iPod Touch - Dell here I come!

This is exactly the device I was keeping an eye on for some time but wasn't sure about Flash support...

Awesome!

Don't let the door hit you on the way out ... ohh wait you're not going anywhere because you are only on here to make negative posts.

 

[Opiyum]

Good Article

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10627234

I'm starting to lose respect for Mr Jobs now though.

From your comment about Jobs, I take it you don't agree with the decision about Flash.

I do not believe the article is correct about Apple not allowing Adobe access to include hardware acceleration. I am a developer, but do not have specific first hand knowledge of the API's in question however so I can't be sure.

That said, if you had a strong anti-Flash pro-html perspective as I do, this decision might be a very good thing because if the iPad becomes anywhere near as popular as the iPhone has proven to be, it may provide enough of a nudge to help move the web back to sanity with actual html and back to viewing Flash as optional content. I look forward to this day. It will take a lot of power to pull it off. I don't know if Apple will be able to pull it off, but they did it with the floppy drive!

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out ... ohh wait you're not going anywhere because you are only on here to make negative posts.

My dear friend Otaviano,

I spent thousands of Euros on Apple products (MBP, Cinema Display, iPod Touch - only in last couple of years!) and as valued customer I think I have full right to express what I think of it be that positive or negative...

OS X - is simply awesome and is main reason I am using Mac

however...

Hardware is overpriced pile of cow excrement - fact!

(my MBP power adaptor burned, my MBP logic board failed, my MBP super drive doesn't work anymore and just the other day my Cinema Display died too!)

Next to hardware issues (from quality to pricing) there are huge problems with Apple software too (even OS X is slowly loosing it!)

But most importantly MAJOR problem is exactly in Steve and his neo-nazi attitude of forcing all of us into his own little bubble world which I hope will burst very soon...


Regarding my previous post...


What is negative about it!?

I am working professional who MUST have mobile device that supports web standards of today (and tomorrow) and am happy that Dell created awesome looking piece of hardware that does exactly what I want!


I am sorry that I will not be spending my money on iDevices any more - really

But if they are made in such a way not to cater for my needs I am left with no choice but to go for something else - and thanks hezuz - there is plenty of competition out there.


Simple as that...

 

[Otaviano]

My dear friend Otaviano,

I spent thousands of Euros on Apple products (MBP, Cinema Display, iPod Touch - only in last couple of years!) and as valued customer I think I have full right to express what I think of it be that positive or negative...

OS X - is simply awesome and is main reason I am using Mac

however...

Hardware is overpriced pile of cow excrement - fact!

(my MBP power adaptor burned, my MBP logic board failed, my MBP super drive doesn't work anymore and just the other day my Cinema Display died too!)

Next to hardware issues (from quality to pricing) there are huge problems with Apple software too (even OS X is slowly loosing it!)

But most importantly MAJOR problem is exactly in Steve and his neo-nazi attitude of forcing all of us into his own little bubble world which I hope will burst very soon...


Regarding my previous post...


What is negative about it!?

I am working professional who MUST have mobile device that supports web standards of today (and tomorrow) and am happy that Dell created awesome looking piece of hardware that does exactly what I want!


I am sorry that I will not be spending my money on iDevices any more - really

But if they are made in such a way not to cater for my needs I am left with no choice but to go for something else - and thanks hezuz - there is plenty of competition out there.


Simple as that...

Switch to a PC, what do you want me to tell you.

I noticed that all your posts are negative. You are essentially on this forum strictly for the sake of posting negative information on Apple. You seem to me like a bit of an internet troll.

I saw you posting negative information in an Aperture thread, had absolutely nothing to do with Aperture. Just there to spread your crap.

Apple has let you down so often, then switch. You're stupid not to. I'm dependent on my computer to ear a living, if something doesn't work right I replace it.

So lot's of luck to you.

As for Flash, I'm a web programmer and I love that Apple is trying to kill Flash. I freaking applaud them for making this bold move. I want an internet that is build on open standards and Flash does not fit into that vision. I love that I can build a complex website, and if I'm in China on a Win 95 machine with only FTP access and notepad I can update the site. That's the way it should be.

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

Switch to a PC, what do you want me to tell you.

I noticed that all your posts are negative. You are essentially on this forum strictly for the sake of posting negative information on Apple. You seem to me like a bit of an internet troll.

I saw you posting negative information in an Aperture thread, had absolutely nothing to do with Aperture. Just there to spread your crap.

Apple has let you down so often, then switch. You're stupid not to. I'm dependent on my computer to ear a living, if something doesn't work right I replace it.

So lot's of luck to you.

As for Flash, I'm a web programmer and I love that Apple is trying to kill Flash. I freaking applaud them for making this bold move. I want an internet that is build on open standards and Flash does not fit into that vision. I love that I can build a complex website, and if I'm in China on a Win 95 machine with only FTP access and notepad I can update the site. That's the way it should be.

Dear Otaviano,

With all due respect I don't think I need any recommendation from you.

In regards to switching hardware, do you really think I would be spending my money on Apple products after my experience with it over the last 2 years!?!?! LOL!

1. Regarding my dead Cinema Display - tomorrow I am going to buy 22" Samsung SyncMaster for 150 Euros since it will be much much cheaper than repairing dead crap + I will get extra 2" of screen size + 2 years of guaranty + more than decent quality. Sorry Apple!

2. Regarding iPod Touch / Dell Mini 5 - I will go to shop and buy Dell as soon as it comes out and never look back at any iDevice. Sorry Apple!

3. Regarding MBP - I love OS X so there is a good chance I will buy it again although will defo think twice before making that purchase in about 1 year or so when I am due for upgrade...

By the way, Otaviano, your posts make me giggle so please keep on typing - its fun


EDIT:

Oh, and regarding Aperture, I tried it TWICE! I tried Lightroom too and made my choice. Lightroom, in my humble opinion, walks over Aperture. Again, sorry Apple!

 

[Havas]

Yes, I know it's a platform / foundation API etc. This has been done many times and it's always failed in the long run to date. Maybe Flash finally got it right, IDK, I guess we'll see in 5 or 10 years where it's at.

I'm just saying that Flash == Flash API && Flash != internet / web / html / javascript and as such IS NOT the technology / platform / foundation API of the world wide web which is in fact html / javascript / css / etc (I'll just use html). Also, be sure to not fool yourself, Flash IS NOT cross platform, it only runs where you have a Flash compiler. I do not know how good the compiler is or if it compiles to the native platform API or it's own, but I would guess that it doesn't look exactly like a windows app on windows and a Mac app on OSX. Please correct me if it does, but my hunch is it looks like a little bit like a Flash app on both.

I have no illusions about Apple or Microsoft locking you into their tech and that is exactly my point in fact. I have no problem whatsoever with Flash existing, except when it's on a web page or when I run a really bad desktop application that was written poorly. Maybe you write really good Flash apps, IDK, but to my knowledge I've never used one that was actually on par with a native platform app. Personally I find almost all uses of flash on websites very annoying and turn them off by default in Safari on OSX - they show up as grey boxes labeled "Flash" and I can click them to load them if the site does not offer an alternative I usually do just that. In my opinion, web sites would benefit greatly from adding logic to automatically substitute html content instead of Flash content when flash is either not detected or the user has specified that they do not want to use Flash on a web site, and should never show that error "Flash is not installed or out of date. Download the current version here."

A Web Browser does not and should not be required to execute Flash, sure they can offer a plug-in for my browser and I'll use it when I am forced to when I am able, but it's not part of the html API. The web should only require a web browser other content is optional, and should not be required of your users as it's not part of the API. It's just an extra.

Although different, Jobs made the same sort of tech choice when Apple did not support floppy disks on the iMac. The PC industry at the time was really "shocked". I remember a quote from the CEO of Dell saying "That is not a choice I would have made". This is one of the huge value's of Apple. They push things forward. My PC does not have a floppy drive. I don't know when they started not including them by default, but I'll bet my PC would have one right now if Jobs didn't make that decision for the iMac. I'm off topic, so I'll leave it at that.

Flash does look native on all operating systems and the web but you can also make look the same on all by getting rid of the OS layer chrome and using your own.

Adobe do have it down and yes it's a little buggy (nothing thats stopped us, only delayed us by having to fix it) but I really think in the next year or two they will have polished it quite nicely going by their efforts over the past year.

 

[niuniu]

I'd personally rather see Adobe step up their game and improve the quality of Flash.

But I don't have a lot of faith that they'll be able to do that.

And to think - Flash was pretty much the sole reason they bought Macromedia.

Yeah, I'd rather see some collaboration between Apple and Adobe on making Flash better instead of what looks to be Job's going on a war campaign against them.

 

[markm49uk]

1. Regarding my dead Cinema Display - tomorrow I am going to buy 22" Samsung SyncMaster for 150 Euros since it will be much much cheaper than repairing dead crap + I will get extra 2" of screen size + 2 years of guaranty + more than decent quality. Sorry Apple!

That made me smile - to say that you intend to replace an Apple Cinema display with a Samsung Syncmaster just demonstrates that you have no idea why you purchased a Cinema display in the first place.

The 20" Cinema display runs a higher resolution then your super Samsung 22" - hope you really enjoy those extra 2" running at a lower res.

 

[Erwin-Br]

As for Flash, I'm a web programmer and I love that Apple is trying to kill Flash. I freaking applaud them for making this bold move. I want an internet that is build on open standards and Flash does not fit into that vision. I love that I can build a complex website, and if I'm in China on a Win 95 machine with only FTP access and notepad I can update the site. That's the way it should be.

If you're really a professional web developer, I'd advise you to spend more time educating yourself. The H.264 implementation Apple and Google are pushing is NOT an open standard.

Mozilla and Opera are the only ones truly supporting an open standard, as they are pushing for the Theora implementation. That's why you can't watch YouTube's HTML5 video's in Firefox.

As long as there is no winner, HTML5 is a useless bag of hurt.

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

That made me smile - to say that you intend to replace an Apple Cinema display with a Samsung Syncmaster just demonstrates that you have no idea why you purchased a Cinema display in the first place.

The 20" Cinema display runs a higher resolution then your super Samsung 22" - hope you really enjoy those extra 2" running at a lower res.

Really!?

How about display and build quality as well as durability!?

If you are paying premium price for something (when I say premium I mean as much as 4 TIMES more than for similar product by other manufacturer) than at very least you would expect things i said above...


In reality it is just average LG display packaged into Apple shell.

Display quality is OK - but surely not fantastic...

Durability - well, after 16 months it simply died...


I admit! I was stupid and there is no one else to blame but myself for falling for the Apple label...


But we all do learn from our mistakes


Samsung I am about to buy tomorrow might not be the best screen in the world but at very least it has 2 years guaranty and is about 4 times cheaper as well as being 2" larger than Apples piece of junk...

I am sure it will die as well just after guaranty expires - but hey - I rather deal with honest to the point people who are pricing their products fairly than with cocky bustards who are ripping me of while flogging "gold plated" dog turds...

Same goes with their "super" drive - which is nothing more but below average dvd player / burner which also doesn't work on my MBP... Luckily i don't use or need it that much :s

In any case - I might post photo in few days of my new Samsung


By the way, I am selling boxed but broken Apple Cinema Display 20" for €100 - if anyone is interested give me a shout!

 

[Denarius]

I'd personally rather see Adobe step up their game and improve the quality of Flash.

But I don't have a lot of faith that they'll be able to do that.

And to think - Flash was pretty much the sole reason they bought Macromedia.

I'm sure they can do it and I think they're becoming sufficiently concerned by Apple's attitude that they will do it.

I'm amused how Jobs said 'helped users to abandon'. I'd say 'pressured' would be be a more accurate verb.

 

[Denarius]

If you're really a professional web developer, I'd advise you to spend more time educating yourself. The H.264 implementation Apple and Google are pushing is NOT an open standard.

Mozilla and Opera are the only ones truly supporting an open standard, as they are pushing for the Theora implementation. That's why you can't watch YouTube's HTML5 video's in Firefox.

As long as there is no winner, HTML5 is a useless bag of hurt.

They're pushing H.264 at the moment as a stopgap, but Google recently bought a codec developer, so I wouldn't be surprised to see Google release a codec under an open source license.

 

[whooleytoo]

So what Jobs is saying, is dump Flash now for a standard which isn't ready for a device which hasn't been released yet.

I think I'll wait to see how rich HTML5 solutions perform first hand, before proclaiming it as our savior from Flash.

I still think developing for HTML5 could be a pain; since there are likely to be differences between the HTML5 engines in every browser, whereas everyone is using the same Flash plugin.

 

[SactoGuy18]

So what Jobs is saying, is dump Flash now for a standard which isn't ready for a device which hasn't been released yet.

Given that HTML 5.0 is not yet "frozen" as a standard (gawd, are we going to have problems with near-future versions of Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome, Safari and Opera doing their own implementations of HTML 5.0 support!) and the fact Flash 10.1 will do better memory management and take advantage of the GPU chip, Apple's wish may not come true for at least 5-6 years!

Apple will be wondering why the iPad doesn't sell and the tablet computers based on Chrome OS--which will likely include Flash 10.1 support--does surprisingly well. As such, once Adobe demonstrates how amazingly efficient Flash 10.1 does work, I wouldn't be surprised that in the end Apple does back down and allows Flash 10.1--but only on the iPad with its more powerful CPU/GPU combination.

 

[MoreMaypo]

I still think developing for HTML5 could be a pain; since there are likely to be differences between the HTML5 engines in every browser, whereas everyone is using the same Flash plugin.

I think most of the Flash-haters in this discussion are completely overlooking this piece of the equation, and it's HUGE.

 

[OzExige]

Really!?
How about display and build quality as well as durability!?
If you are paying premium price for something (when I say premium I mean as much as 4 TIMES more than for similar product by other manufacturer) than at very least you would expect things i said above...
In reality it is just average LG display packaged into Apple shell.
Display quality is OK - but surely not fantastic...
Durability - well, after 16 months it simply died...
I admit! I was stupid and there is no one else to blame but myself for falling for the Apple label...
But we all do learn from our mistakes
Samsung I am about to buy tomorrow might not be the best screen in the world but at very least it has 2 years guaranty and is about 4 times cheaper as well as being 2" larger than Apples piece of junk...
I am sure it will die as well just after guaranty expires - but hey - I rather deal with honest to the point people who are pricing their products fairly than with cocky bustards who are ripping me of while flogging "gold plated" dog turds...
Same goes with their "super" drive - which is nothing more but below average dvd player / burner which also doesn't work on my MBP... Luckily i don't use or need it that much :s
In any case - I might post photo in few days of my new Samsung


By the way, I am selling boxed but broken Apple Cinema Display 20" for €100 - if anyone is interested give me a shout!

Do you read this stuff before posting?

Your words, (and I quote)
I'm stupid and blame myself
I'm going to buy a second rate screen that will die after the guarantee runs out.
Apple make junk, gold plated dog turds and are cocky dishonest rip-off bastards.

Earlier you posted an apology to Apple for going elsewhere for your computers
I assure you that Apple (nor we at MacRumors) give a rat's arse what you do.