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Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak has spoken out in favor of Apple and all other companies in the world paying the same 50% tax rate he does, calling anything less "unfair".

In an interview with the BBC published this morning, Wozniak, who left Apple in 1986, said that every company in the world should pay the same rate he pays as an individual. "I do a lot of work, I do a lot of travel and I pay over 50% of anything I make in taxes and I believe that's part of life and you should do it," he said.

I disagree with Steve W here. Corporate tax rates should be negotiated as part of the WTO agreements and should be uniform worldwide. It wouldn't bother me if the general corporate rate was 0% (assumption -- individuals pay the taxes, not corporations), or, 70%, if that is what is negotiated. It needs to be uniform across the WTO countries, and, with no way to expatriate income/profits outside the WTO.

Brilliant! This is the spirit of what Apple was founded on, the spirit of two Steves.

Unfortunately to date Apple has gone down the unsavoury route of shifting profits to different countries to reduce their tax. A convoluted mix of highly unethical funds movements. That's not the Apple I wish to be associated with.

What Apple is doing is perfectly legal, at least in the U.S. -- I'm not sure about the EU. And, the Panama papers seem to indicate that the U.S. is one of the primary places to invest money once it has been "laundered". The super-rich from other countries seem to find the U.S. an attractive place to invest, since in the U.S. "only the little people pay taxes".

I love Woz, but there is one little flaw with his idea. What would a dysfunctional government do with all this corporate money? If it can't handle the money of the people right, it won't do any better with the Apple treasure.

It must be awful to go through life seeing everything through the constant dark veil of Libertarianism. I think you should hurry and find a country to move to where you don't have to pay taxes since it is so traumatic for you.
 
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It must be awful to go through life seeing everything through the constant dark veil of Libertarianism. I think you should hurry and find a country to move to where you don't have to pay taxes since it is so traumatic for you.

To Aynrandlandia! A land of no gods or kings, and everyone is free!

...until one guy gets more money and land than the rest of us, and starts bossing everyone around.
 
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When people say Steve is Apple, they are not exaggerating. If not for Steve we would not have access to handheld supercomputers for under $1000 that does everything. Remotely. Amazing.

Are we re-writing history now? I'm pretty sure the world would be where we are now regardless.
And as a person, well...... thats more than well documented what type of person he was.
 
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I used to like this guy... but this is just nutty. Woz is filthy rich and would probably be happy being poor... has not much use for money. Apple is a public company... they are not going to just voluntarily pay a much higher tax burdens than they are legally required to do. If the over controlling government went to a simpler flat tax... same percentage for everyone... and stopped trying to control people through the complex tax code, then they would be paying more tax legally.


A flat tax would significantly reduce revenues for the government. People tend to say they hate government spending until it's time to cut their benefits, refunds, or close that Army base in their Congressional district. Not only that, but if you think a flat tax will stop the ultra wealthy from lobbying for different exemptions, then you're nuts.

Sure, create a flat tax system, but you have to recognize the tax code isn't byzantine because the government likes that, it's because there's so many different interests involved. Why do you think every politician complains about taxes and then nothing gets done?
 
If it were ever implemented with reduced government involvement, the test would be interesting. Regulatory agencies are controlled by the executive and employ authority designated to the legislature in the constitution. Change that and we will see, but not one second sooner. Heck, let congress approve with line item veto all (all) regulatory changes.
[doublepost=1461434412][/doublepost]Employees need employers. Is that trickle down or not?

Companies don't pay corporation tax on wages...
[doublepost=1461450827][/doublepost]
Yes, the fact that you engage in these discussions without doing any research is sorry. Thank you for saying so.

If you can't see the various initiatives that Apple puts into green projects, recycling, carbon footprint, and human rights, or have gleaned what Google's long term goals are with Google fiber and self driving cars, or have listened to Elon Musk and some of the things he has proposed (a few of which have now happened)...

If you are seeing all this and cannot connect the dots to see how these people and corporations utilizing the larger portion of their earned profit is better for our development and national infrastructure than the government getting 50%, then I can't help you.

I don't think those projects are as important as educating our children etc.

Look Apple and Google have built good products. And that's great. But still.
 
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I don't think those projects are as important as educating our children etc.

A lot of their products do a great job of helping us educate our children. The iPad is an excellent no fuss no muss computer for kids, and the iTunes U store gives teachers and students both access to tons upon tons of learning material.

Google, with their inexpensive Chromebooks, and their various infrastructure initiatives, have done quite a bit towards providing the entire country with fast, affordable internet.
 
Employees need employers. Is that trickle down or not?


Companies need customers with the means to buy their products.

A CEO who stashes 90% pf his $25 million annual bonus in T-Bills and stocks only boosts the Dow and drives down interest rates. An employee making $70,000 a year is probably going to end up spending most of that.

Since WWII the economic engine of the United States was a consumer market made up of tens of millions of middle-class people - mostly wage-earners. Right now that is under threat from a number of economic forces. But trust me - giving more tax breaks to millionaires while our roads and bridges crumble is only going to make things worse. The rich don't need more money to invest. They need customers to buy their products.
 
The most regressive (poor) taxes are sales tax, gasoline taxes, property taxes (including renters), and excise taxes. They are built into the cost of goods and thus are unavoidable, and are a much larger fraction of poor people expenses than rich people. This is a fact that is obvious and is known to all but nowhere enough dwelled on.

There are "sin taxes" on tobacco, liquor, etc that also fall disproportionately on poor people. In this case based on the concepts I have repeated here I think it fair to include all persons up to 4x the "poverty line".


I get a guy like you only wants to see taxes eliminated on all levels rather than having the rich among us pay more but I'll answer this...

I agree that regressive taxes like a sales tax, which is a flat tax, needs to be lowered or done away with in order to take the tax burden away from people on the lower end of the income bracket. However, this can be replaced by a VAT tax like other industrialized countries have.

Further, raising the progressive tax rate on higher income earners, like Bernie Sanders proposes, as well as corporations would significantly make up the deficit in raising revenue this country has been suffering from. Wouldn't you agree that the rich and corporations should take up more of the tax burden since they benefit the most from our system of government and economics?
[doublepost=1461455360][/doublepost]
And employers need employees. You need to understand that the economy is a circle, not an umbrella.


This is exactly what so many who follow a conservative and libertarian ideologies don't understand despite how much you try to explain it to them. They don't realize that their actions in an economy come back to them in some way.
 
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China used Keynes to get out of the 2008 recession and double the value of their economy. Some failure.
[doublepost=1461421168][/doublepost]

All that money was spent on make-work projects to artificially stimulate the economy. The Broken Window Fallacy explains it perfectly, but I'd like to cite some examples from personal observation.

When Obama took office, one of the first big moves he did was send out hundreds of millions of dollars in money to the states to get the economic ball rolling. I think it was called "Americorps" or something like that. Everywhere I looked, money was being spent on things like road paving and public facility upgrades. The odd thing was that none of this money was spent on any necessities. It was entirely discretionary. Hundreds of miles of recent interstate highways were repaved. Meanwhile, overpasses were crumbling and local roads needed to be widened yet were put on hold because the funding wasn't there, The local airport received a "beautification" grant that resulted in the approach and facade being completely redone, yet it looked almost the same as before the work. Meanwhile, runways needed work badly, and offices that should have been condemned and rebuilt from the ground up were left untreated.

The problem with the government "doing something" is that they lack a fundamental element that helps move money where its needed, and that is the market signal. Demand drives production better than anything else including severe beatings, which is why slavery and collectivist government is/was doomed no matter what. Everything that naturally results from a need or a want ultimately is a much better director of capital than any guy from DC with a briefcase. I didn't fully realize this until I heard a lecture about just how beneficial price gouging is during times of disaster, and why price controls cause shortages. It was one of the most eye-opening things I've ever studied whether it was economics or philosophy or anything in between.

What China did wasn't build an economy. They simply played kick the can, just like the US government and our artificial money system has been doing for just about a century. Cheap borrowed money distorts any available market signals by reducing risk to investors, and when a government can take advantage of that money its the worst kind of distortion of that type. Besides using up valuable resources where there is no need, it creates waste from processed raw materials (look at the vast lake of neodymium waste at Baotou), and it also uses up what little demand exists both now and in the future. Homes were cheap to build, so was commercial space, and all those construction companies with government crony contacts needed to be kept busy to keep the economy going, so yes, there are now enormous empty cities sitting around China. And more kept being built.

The same thing happened here. Cheap money led to people living beyond their means. As house prices went up, speculation increased, and banks were allowed to cook their books to hide their poorly constructed loans. Reselling a loan is not necessarily a bad thing, but portfolio-ing entire blocks of loans is, especially when the block is sold as an asset. But that wasn't capitalism - that was crony capitalism. Aka fascism. The state teaming up with financial megabusinesses to promote the aims of oligarchs using a system of phony fiat currency around the globe to live off of our productivity.

You want to solve problems, don't tax people. Don't tax corporations that make things people want. Go pull the rug out from under the parasites that use us, use those companies, and then pit us all against each other while saying "we could fix this, if only we had that much more power and that much more money" to both sides.
 
How exactly does big business investing in the stock market help poverty in any way?
[doublepost=1461421083][/doublepost]

China used Keynes to get out of the 2008 recession and double the value of their economy. Some failure.
[doublepost=1461421168][/doublepost]

So how should he earn a living? Work for some other company that does the same tax dodges? Earn a pension invested in companies that do the same tax dodges?

Have you lived in China?
How would you know if it has been a failure or not? Because you read some government reported numbers on GDP growth?
 
I haven't worked in government but in a recent past life, I have worked in a government school. From my limited observations, I can agree there is some misuse of government funds, or more accurately, some funds spent without a well defined overarching plan. However even after optimizing fund spending, schools (and hospitals and the like) would continue to be well underfunded. Proper company taxes need to be leveraged. Companies do need to pay their fair share. Apple in recent years has only paid the equivalent of 2%-6% tax due to its intricate tax arrangements. In the case where company revenue is so great such that of Apple Inc, 30%-50% is fair. Wozniak is right.

In my experience with government at the city and county level, "optimizing spending" means making sure the entire budget is spent before the FY review. I have personal knowledge of many government offices absolutely blowing money on useless stuff just to ensure their budget isn't decreased by one dime the following year. Truckloads of new computers come through the door while truckloads of perfectly serviceable computers nowhere near EOL are pushed out another door to salvage companies for pennies on the dollar. And if the local Sheriff is confronted about this and budget cuts are demanded, then of course the "public benefit" defense is employed. Just like all the public parks and national monuments are "in danger of being shut down due to budget constraints" when Congress does their showboating over the federal budget, the Sheriff will threaten to pull deputies off what is perceived as the most needed patrols. Schools usually, because tugging at the heartstrings does it like nothing else.
 
I disagree with Steve W here. Corporate tax rates should be negotiated as part of the WTO agreements and should be uniform worldwide. It wouldn't bother me if the general corporate rate was 0% (assumption -- individuals pay the taxes, not corporations), or, 70%, if that is what is negotiated. It needs to be uniform across the WTO countries, and, with no way to expatriate income/profits outside the WTO.



What Apple is doing is perfectly legal, at least in the U.S. -- I'm not sure about the EU. And, the Panama papers seem to indicate that the U.S. is one of the primary places to invest money once it has been "laundered". The super-rich from other countries seem to find the U.S. an attractive place to invest, since in the U.S. "only the little people pay taxes".



It must be awful to go through life seeing everything through the constant dark veil of Libertarianism. I think you should hurry and find a country to move to where you don't have to pay taxes since it is so traumatic for you.

I agree with most of your post, except the 70% bit and the disparaging of libertarianism.
I don't speak for all libertarians, but I don't think libertarians should be confused with anarchists.
Libertarians are mostly just classical liberals, but since that term has been taken away by the left, they are using the suffix "-arian" to distinguish themselves.
America is still one of the most free countries in the world today in terms of individual liberty, which is why the best and the brightest and the most wealthy (especially from China) want to live in the US.
 
Woz is no economist and I would NEVER accept his financial advice on anything. He's a millionaire for one reason - he was Steve Jobs best friend, and Jobs had a vision for a technology driven future at a time when no one could see beyond Big Blue.

Corporate tax rates should be negotiated as part of WTO agreements? That's completely insane.
 
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I agree with most of your post, except the 70% bit and the disparaging of libertarianism.
I don't speak for all libertarians, but I don't think libertarians should be confused with anarchists.
Libertarians are mostly just classical liberals, but since that term has been taken away by the left, they are using the suffix "-arian" to distinguish themselves.
America is still one of the most free countries in the world today in terms of individual liberty, which is why the best and the brightest and the most wealthy (especially from China) want to live in the US.

There are a couple of interesting articles in this month's Atlantic that you might want to read. The first is this one about luck:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...uck-matters-more-than-you-might-think/476394/

As E. B. White once wrote, “Luck is not something you can mention in the presence of self-made men.”

The second is an eclectic article about The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/
 
If not for Steve we would not have access to handheld supercomputers for under $1000 that does everything. Remotely. Amazing.

Really? So no other company has or could have developed a powerful smartphone? Pretty sure the Samsungs do nearly everything that, if not more than, an iPhone can do. They just didn't have the reality distortion field and rabid fan base to boost sales.
[doublepost=1461473574][/doublepost]
Since WWII the economic engine of the United States was a consumer market made up of tens of millions of middle-class people - mostly wage-earners. Right now that is under threat from a number of economic forces. But trust me - giving more tax breaks to millionaires while our roads and bridges crumble is only going to make things worse. The rich don't need more money to invest. They need customers to buy their products.

Cue the "you need to take an economics class" comments. Apparently some of the highest profits in history and some of the wealthiest upper class sin history is not enough. We need to change things to make it easier for them, and get them some more money before anything can happen. They can't invest until we give them MORE money. And then after we do that, it won't be enough, and we'll need to again send some more money their way. At some point...you'll see that trickle working, I promise!!
 
In my experience with government at the city and county level, "optimizing spending" means making sure the entire budget is spent before the FY review. I have personal knowledge of many government offices absolutely blowing money on useless stuff just to ensure their budget isn't decreased by one dime the following year. Truckloads of new computers come through the door while truckloads of perfectly serviceable computers nowhere near EOL are pushed out another door to salvage companies for pennies on the dollar. And if the local Sheriff is confronted about this and budget cuts are demanded, then of course the "public benefit" defense is employed. Just like all the public parks and national monuments are "in danger of being shut down due to budget constraints" when Congress does their showboating over the federal budget, the Sheriff will threaten to pull deputies off what is perceived as the most needed patrols. Schools usually, because tugging at the heartstrings does it like nothing else.
So that's what I meant by some funds spent without a well defined overarching plan.
 
Perhaps, after POTUS decided to tell your country what to do. Quite stunning IMO. It will have the desired effect. You'll continue to give the EU 13 Billion Euros every year for 4.5B back in exports/sales.

Great deal. :rolleyes:

The EU takes half our exports... I think they are more than 4.5B.
[doublepost=1461479106][/doublepost]
All that money was spent on make-work projects to artificially stimulate the economy. The Broken Window Fallacy explains it perfectly, but I'd like to cite some examples from personal observation.

When Obama took office, one of the first big moves he did was send out hundreds of millions of dollars in money to the states to get the economic ball rolling. I think it was called "Americorps" or something like that. Everywhere I looked, money was being spent on things like road paving and public facility upgrades. The odd thing was that none of this money was spent on any necessities. It was entirely discretionary. Hundreds of miles of recent interstate highways were repaved. Meanwhile, overpasses were crumbling and local roads needed to be widened yet were put on hold because the funding wasn't there, The local airport received a "beautification" grant that resulted in the approach and facade being completely redone, yet it looked almost the same as before the work. Meanwhile, runways needed work badly, and offices that should have been condemned and rebuilt from the ground up were left untreated.

The problem with the government "doing something" is that they lack a fundamental element that helps move money where its needed, and that is the market signal. Demand drives production better than anything else including severe beatings, which is why slavery and collectivist government is/was doomed no matter what. Everything that naturally results from a need or a want ultimately is a much better director of capital than any guy from DC with a briefcase. I didn't fully realize this until I heard a lecture about just how beneficial price gouging is during times of disaster, and why price controls cause shortages. It was one of the most eye-opening things I've ever studied whether it was economics or philosophy or anything in between.

What China did wasn't build an economy. They simply played kick the can, just like the US government and our artificial money system has been doing for just about a century. Cheap borrowed money distorts any available market signals by reducing risk to investors, and when a government can take advantage of that money its the worst kind of distortion of that type. Besides using up valuable resources where there is no need, it creates waste from processed raw materials (look at the vast lake of neodymium waste at Baotou), and it also uses up what little demand exists both now and in the future. Homes were cheap to build, so was commercial space, and all those construction companies with government crony contacts needed to be kept busy to keep the economy going, so yes, there are now enormous empty cities sitting around China. And more kept being built.

The same thing happened here. Cheap money led to people living beyond their means. As house prices went up, speculation increased, and banks were allowed to cook their books to hide their poorly constructed loans. Reselling a loan is not necessarily a bad thing, but portfolio-ing entire blocks of loans is, especially when the block is sold as an asset. But that wasn't capitalism - that was crony capitalism. Aka fascism. The state teaming up with financial megabusinesses to promote the aims of oligarchs using a system of phony fiat currency around the globe to live off of our productivity.

You want to solve problems, don't tax people. Don't tax corporations that make things people want. Go pull the rug out from under the parasites that use us, use those companies, and then pit us all against each other while saying "we could fix this, if only we had that much more power and that much more money" to both sides.

Why would people repave stuff that didn't need it? That makes literally no sense. I don't really believe the US government is that corrupt.

The thing is there are things that make sense to do privately and there are things that make sense to do publicly. Healthcare is in the latter category.

Have you lived in China?
How would you know if it has been a failure or not? Because you read some government reported numbers on GDP growth?

So you think China's recent GDP growth is a conspiracy theory? Really? 9/11 truthers are more believable than that.
 
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Apple is paying all the taxes in the country's they operate and they are a global company using that to their advantage.

I think the laws need to change and not Apple.
 
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