Studio Display XDR Impressions

[Tymscar]

Actually crazy. I rolled back and 5k now works at 60 and 4k at 120. I only really use that machine for gaming every other day so this is already fantastic and it made my day. Is there any way to do 5k 120 with the 4080? Or only 5000 series can because of DP2.1?

 

[thenewepic]

Or only 5000 series can because of DP2.1?

Studio XDR does not use DP2.1. Technically 4080 can support 5K@120 but drivers that can enable this are needed.

 

[fotuwe]

The VESA discount make the XDR more attractive to me .. have a hydraulic VESA mount already but do you guys can recommend any that somehow fits the design if the XDR?

400 for just the stand is… I don’t know. Border edge „ok“ considering the quality and design.

However saving 400 on the XDR makes me rethink if I should go with the XDR… thought about getting the new standard ASD with TB5 - but man that price for a 60 Hz IPS… anyone in the same boat? Buy once cry once or?

 

[joevt]

I think maybe with the earlier Apple Silicon Macs, the ASD or ASD XDR will run using two channels of TB 3 data, each uncompressed stream covering half the screen, left or right.

When in this mode I don't think there is enough bandwidth for any USB 3.x data to pass down the cable.

Here's a method for Apple Silicon Macs to show if a display connects with DSC or not:
https://github.com/waydabber/BetterDisplay/discussions/4833#
For Intel Macs, I would use AllRez to check the list of display modes if BetterDisplay doesn't do that.
https://github.com/joevt/AllRez

If the video data IS being sent compressed, using DSC, another factor may be that at start-up the Mac is pre-allocating enough bandwidth allow 5K120 settings for the ASD XDR, (even though it can't be run from an M1 at more that 60Hz), so that a TB3 stream hasn't got enough to also send USB 3.x...

Unlikely. If a display is not connected, then you get more bandwidth for other stuff (USB or PCIe or Thunderbolt networking).

Your keyboard, being USB 2, will work fine, because the USB 2 signals have their own separate wires in a USB-C or TB3/4/5 cable, so will always work.

I don't think the USB 2 (High Speed) data lines are used by Thunderbolt or USB4 devices for USB data. The USB 3.x Super Speed data lines are used for Thunderbolt / USB4 data which tunnels USB and PCIe and DisplayPort.

Anyone with a 5080 who's able to get 5k@120hz? I have tried with a cable that theoretically should support it but I can get at most:
- 5k@60hz;
- 4k@120hz with VRR.
I'm using this cable (https://it.aliexpress.com/item/1005010522228844.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2ita).

The description says that cable is for 4K which probably means it is limited to HBR2 link rate (DisplayPort 1.2).
You should get a cable or adapter that supports HBR3 link rate.
https://dancharblog.wordpress.com/2...bles/#for-portable-usb-c-touch-screens-and-vr
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/alternative-to-the-belkin-vr-cable.2378619/
https://www.store.level1techs.com/products/p/dp-repeater-hdmi-splitter-6sha9-yznx5-zm58w

5K120 is approximately 1902 MHz. It may be possible with HBR2 x4 using DSC at 8bpp. Does Nvidia allow DSC @ 8bpp? Does the display allow DSC @ 8bpp?
With HBR3 x4, DSC target bpp can be as high as 12bpp which is the default for macOS.

Someone with an Intel Mac should run AllRez to dump the DPCD info of the display. It should show the DSC capabilities of the display.

Guys what is limit for daisy chaining? My M5 pro handle dual XDR via daisy chaning no issues. Is it possible to have with M5 max 3 XDR with DSC via one TB 5 cable ?

You mean dual XDR 5K since XDR 6K doesn't have a downstream Thunderbolt port for daisy chaining?

All M4** Macs, like earlier generations, only have two channels of DP video connected to each TB 5 controller chip.
So the maximum number of displays you can drive is two per TB 4/5 port, up to the overall limits Apple specify.

With M5 Pro/Max Macs there are now four channels of DP connected to each TB 5 controller, so in theory (subject to TB 5 bandwidth limits) four lower resolution monitors can be connected to each port, subject to Apple's overall limits.

@joevt discussed it:

The *COMPLETE* list of 27" 5K Displays?

Yes, it does look like each Thunderbolt 5 port can support 4 displays. That doesn't mean you can connect 12 displays. Here's the relevant parts: | | +-o acio0@A1F00000 | | | +-o AppleThunderboltHALType7 | | | | +-o AppleThunderboltNHIType7 | | | | +-o...

forums.macrumors.com

How many displays can be connected to MacBook Pro - Apple Support

The number of external displays that you can use at the same time depends on your Mac model and the resolution and refresh rate of each display.

support.apple.com

According to this Apple doc, all previous Apple Silicon MBPs can only daisy chain up to 2 displays.
Only on the M5 Pro the limit is 3, and the M5 Max is 4.

Need ioreg output (as discussed in that macrumors thread) from M5 Pro to verify that each of its Thunderbolt controllers has 3 (not 2 or 4) DisplayPort In Adapters to allow 3 displays from a single Thunderbolt 5 port.

horizontal × vertical × refresh rate × bit depth × RGB
5120 × 2880 × 120 × 10 × 3 = 53.08 Gbit/s

I don't think it is possible to daisy-chain a third one on a 120 Gbit/s TB5 connection.

You forget DSC.

Good news: the m5 max can handle all 3 XDR displays at 5K120Hz, the apple support site answers that.

How to plug it in, however, they do not answer.

If you're on a macbook it'll matter so your question is, can you daisy chain your 3 XDR 120Hz displays off of one tb5 port on the macbook, or do you have give up one of those precious ports?

Apple's own website doesn't have any information about how best to get chained up.

If I were you, I'd try it and see what happens, but don't be surprised if you don't get 120 Hz on the second display or third displays.

I think you'll have to do two displays from one tb5 port, the other from a second one. I don't see all that video going through one cable.

Although it seems you could daisy chain them all at 60 Hz, that'd be a crying shame for leaving performance on the table.

If 5K120 can be done using DSC @ 8bpp, then that's only 15.3 Gbps. Thunderbolt 5 can do 120 Gbps which can do 7 of those displays (if there were 7 DisplayPort In Adapters, or if MST was supported for multiple displays).
If 5K120 is using DSC at the usual 12bpp, then that's at most 23.2 Gbps. Thunderbolt 5 can do 5 of that (if there were 5 DisplayPort In Adapters, or if MST was supported for multiple displays).
HBR3 x4 is 25.92 Gbps. Thunderbolt 5 can do 4 of that.
macOS doesn't support MST for multiple separate displays.

Then if we disregard daisy chaining, only talk on the topic of direct connection where M4 Max has trouble showing the 3rd Studio Display XDR, we are speculating that the first 2 connected already occupied all available 4 DP streams, even after you manually push the refresh rate down to 60Hz it wouldn’t “give back” the available bandwidth. The fact that the M1 Max has no issue doing the same, is because the chip falls in the list of Macs that can only do 5k60, so the dual stream mode is never engaged between the XDR and the Mac, the Mac sees it as a 5k60 from the beginning.

I don't have any info about Studio Display XDR limits with direct connections to M4 Max. I don't think Apple uses uncompressed mode for 6K XDR, otherwise you couldn't use the XDR's USB ports at more than 1 Gbps. Apple could be enforcing a total pixels/second limit or something similar.

I recall it being one XDR and two Studio Displays, all daisy chained through one TB5 cable.

6K60 is less bandwidth than 5K120. The demo would have been more impressive if three 5K120 displays were connected.

Hi, sorry to bother you do you confirm that that cable matters switch can run 5K@120hz with 20gbps bandwidth? I'm really interested but I have to import it.
I'm just making sure it would run well with my Macbook and eventually my Windows PC (5080 but no TB/USB 4 port)

5K@120Hz might be possible for 20 Gbps if DSC @ 8bpp is possible.
The display or OS or drivers or GPU might have unknown limits.

it doesn't work that way. Studio XDR connects its internal panel through DP1.4 with DSC even if host device supports TB5/DP2.1.
That means 5K@120 would take either 15 (at 8 bpp) or 23 (at 12 bpp) Gbps. Even 23 Gbps will fit into one DP1.4 stream. As we know, M5 Pro supports 3 display streams on one TB controller and M5 Max supports 4. Since DisplayPort over Thunderbolt operates with negligible performance overhead (because Thunderbolt natively tunnels DisplayPort packets) we can assume that one symmetric (80 Gbps) TB connection could handle three DP1.4 streams i.e. three Studio XDR displays.
But as there is no device that can handle 3 external 5K@120 displays from one TB controller (Macbook Pro M5 Max and Mac Studio M3 Ultra support only two) we cannot check such a capability. For now.

If three 5K@120 displays cannot be connected then it means Apple is enforcing a limit that is not related to the max limit of Thunderbolt 5.

 

[Cobalt`]

Wow you just gave me the last piece to my puzzle, thanks for that! I've had a similar setup to yours that you described in your earlier comments but had no audio/camera and just video. I flipped the Cable Matters USB-C cable and it actually worked.

It freaked my XDR out though and the fans started running at full blast. Exhaust air was cool and the XDR was still working fine so I'm assuming it wasn't overheating. Fans came down to normal with a quick reboot of the monitor. Other than that, I've had no crashes and have been using the Studio Display XDR with my 5090 PC, M3 Ultra Mac studio and PS5 Pro.

My Setup (Using the 3-port version of the Cable Matters switch https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DLJT49Z3):

Mac Studio Thunderbolt —-> StarTech Thunderbolt 5 Dock -> DisplayPort/USB-A to USB-C Cable —-> Cable Matters USB-C Switch

Windows PC —-> DisplayPort/USB-A to USB-C Cable —-> Cable Matters USB-C Switch

PS5 Pro —-> Club 3D CAC-1335 > DisplayPort to USB-C Cable —-> Cable Matters USB-C Switch
(Can only get 1440p120hz with this setup no HDR at 120hz)

Question, is it possible to bypass the Thunderbolt 5 dock and just connect the Mac directly to the Cable Matters switch via the TB5 cable or would it need a specific cable?

 

[joevt]

Question, is it possible to bypass the Thunderbolt 5 dock and just connect the Mac directly to the Cable Matters switch via the TB5 cable or would it need a specific cable?

I think a Thunderbolt 5 cable should be able to handle a standard USB signal from the Mac to the switch. You may find a 10 Gbps USB-C cable to be less expensive than a Thunderbolt 5 cable though.

A 10 Gbps USB-C cable is the same thing as a 20 Gbps USB-C cable, i.e. 10 Gbps per lane. As a display switch, it will be doing 8.1 Gbps HBR3 x4 + USB 2.0.

The cable should be able to handle USB 3.1 gen 2 (aka USB 3.2 gen 2x1) (10 Gbps, 1 receive line, 1 transmit line, 2 lanes for DisplayPort HBR3 x2) or USB 3.2 gen 2x2 (20 Gbps, 2 receive lines, 2 transmit line, no DisplayPort), or HBR3 x4 (8.1 Gbps 4 transmit lanes) or UHBR10 x4 (10 Gbps 4 transmit lanes) or Thunderbolt 20 Gbps (2 receive lines, 2 transmit lines).

 

[Pezimak]

The VESA discount make the XDR more attractive to me .. have a hydraulic VESA mount already but do you guys can recommend any that somehow fits the design if the XDR?

400 for just the stand is… I don’t know. Border edge „ok“ considering the quality and design.

However saving 400 on the XDR makes me rethink if I should go with the XDR… thought about getting the new standard ASD with TB5 - but man that price for a 60 Hz IPS… anyone in the same boat? Buy once cry once or?

I have the white one if these, it's very good and solid:

Monitor Arm

www.benq.eu

Of course you can get more premium ones. Herman Miller make some:

Monitor Arms

Upgrade your home office with ergonomic monitor arms! Free up desk space, improve posture, reduce neck strain, and enjoy all-day comfort.

ukstore.hermanmiller.com

If you search it is a case of how much do you want to spend? Some fancy designs out there.

 

[thenewepic]

Need ioreg output (as discussed in that macrumors thread) from M5 Pro to verify that each of its Thunderbolt controllers has 3 (not 2 or 4) DisplayPort In Adapters to allow 3 displays from a single Thunderbolt 5 port

CalDigit say that. I tend to trust them.

If three 5K@120 displays cannot be connected then it means Apple is enforcing a limit that is not related to the max limit of Thunderbolt 5

yes, apparently Apple has some budget for maximum number of high demanding screens as well as different budget for maximum resolution-refresh rate of one screen. And those limits despite being restricted by TB/DP theoretical throughput are actually lower than restrictions imposed by these interfaces and are more related to GPU subsystem limitations.

 

[Baxtrel]

Question, is it possible to bypass the Thunderbolt 5 dock and just connect the Mac directly to the Cable Matters switch via the TB5 cable or would it need a specific cable?

Tested this, a Thunderbolt 5 cable from the Mac directly to the Cable Matter switch gives me no video, just audio. Not sure if there is a specific cable required but I tried using Apple's Thunderbolt 5 cable and get a black screen.

Only reason I know audio is working is because I hear the chime from the monitor speakers when using the volume keys on the keyboard.

 

[iamFredT]

Tested this, a Thunderbolt 5 cable from the Mac directly to the Cable Matter switch gives me no video, just audio. Not sure if there is a specific cable required but I tried using Apple's Thunderbolt 5 cable and get a black screen.

Only reason I know audio is working is because I hear the chime from the monitor speakers when using the volume keys on the keyboard.

Sorry, are you using this switch: https://www.cablematters.com/pc-184...dock-not-for-dock-with-an-attached-cable.aspx ?

I think there was another guy using it but I don’t know if he was using too a TB Dock to bypass potential issues.

 

[iamFredT]

Hi thanks for all the information you shared!
I bought the same cable (dp + usb -> type c) and I can't manage to make it work on 5k 120hz. It will work out of box on 4k 120hz. If I change the res to 5k, the nvidia console will force it back to 60hz and I can't see 120hz options. It's not throught any switch but directly connection between my 5090 pc to the monitor. Is there any trick I need to change to make it work?

Thank you!

Hi, have you been able to solve the issue! Are you using Nexhype’s cable?

 

[Tymscar]

Hi, have you been able to solve the issue! Are you using Nexhype’s cable?

I have the same exact issue. Tried a handful of cables. I think it's just that my 4080 is limited?

Also, did you guys get a cleaning cloth? Mine didn't come with one in the box

 

[phoenixbt]

Found a workaround for getting dual XDRs running (at 60Hz) on my M4 <null> MBP (company provided so no option to update.

I bought a 4k HDMI dummy plug on Amazon and use it to keep one of the display engines occupied while I plug in my TS5 that has both my XDRs downstream. Then after one of the two XDRs wakes up, and takes the other display engine, I can remove the 4k dummy plug which lets the second XDR come up. Luckily MacOS seems to prioritize letting the second XDR light up over renegotiating the first one up the 120Hz 🙂

Really annoying, wish there was some way in software to prevent this hardware song a dance. The base M4, and presumably M5, clearly can support dual XDRs at 60Hz if the display engines allocation weren’t so greedy.


View attachment 2619923

Can you link the adapter you bought? I have this same setup and have been looking for a solution

 

[thenewepic]

Tested this, a Thunderbolt 5 cable from the Mac directly to the Cable Matter switch gives me no video, just audio. Not sure if there is a specific cable required but I tried using Apple's Thunderbolt 5 cable and get a black screen

on the page they literally said:

Compatibility Warning: Use only the included USB4 20 Gbps cables. Do not use Thunderbolt 3/4/5 cables.

 

[iamFredT]

on the page they literally said:

I think this might see a very stupid question: so it would not be possibile to connect to the Cable Matter Switch the Nexhype cable (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0F9XTY49Y/ref=ewc_pr_img_1?smid=AO7UNKT6PVTWZ&psc=1)?
Should I necessarily connect the Nexhype cable to a TB dock and connect the TB dock to the Cable Matter Switch using the included cable?

 

[iamFredT]

I have the same exact issue. Tried a handful of cables. I think it's just that my 4080 is limited?

Also, did you guys get a cleaning cloth? Mine didn't come with one in the box

No cloth is included in Studio Display XDR with standard glass (European market).

 

[Baxtrel]

Sorry, are you using this switch: https://www.cablematters.com/pc-184...dock-not-for-dock-with-an-attached-cable.aspx ?

I think there was another guy using it but I don’t know if he was using too a TB Dock to bypass potential issues.

I'm using the three-port version of that switch: https://www.cablematters.com/pc-176...ng-usb-cthunderbolt-4-monitors-and-docks.aspx

the other guy, OP of the thread was also using a TB dock which is where I got the idea from.

on the page they literally said:

Cables that came with the device also didn't work for me. Tried again with the USB-C cable that comes with ROG PG32UCDM(Idk what the cable is rated for but it's not Thunderbolt) and it worked with that cable, no speakers or webcam in that config.

 

[Tymscar]

Im in the UK. I watched some videos and I always see them there

 

[iamFredT]

Im in the UK. I watched some videos and I always see them there

Same here. From the videos I have always seen it but if you check Apple's website it states that is not included. Instead if you check Studio Display XDR with Nanotexture the cloth is stated as included in the box.

 

[thenewepic]

Should I necessarily connect the Nexhype cable to a TB dock and connect the TB dock to the Cable Matter Switch using the included cable?

I think that nobody knows what to expect. This 20 Gbps switch is very picky.

 

[Tymscar]

Same here. From the videos I have always seen it but if you check Apple's website it states that is not included. Instead if you check Studio Display XDR with Nanotexture the cloth is stated as included in the box.

That's so sad. Good to know. Thank you

 

[joevt]

CalDigit say that. I tend to trust them.

That CalDigit info indicates that 3 displays is supported by the M5 Pro from a single Thunderbolt 5 host port using the CalDigit Thunderbolt 5 dock. They say 4 displays is supported from the CalDigit Thunderbolt 5 dock when connected to a M5 Max, but that requires at least one of the displays to be a Thunderbolt display or connected to a downstream Thunderbolt device because the Thunderbolt 5 dock has only 3 DisplayPort Out Adapters.

The ioreg output would indicate why only 3 displays is supported by the M5 Pro from a single Thunderbolt 5 host port. Also, the ioreg output does not require having 3 displays and Thunderbolt devices to test the result.

 

[the-doctor]

Can you link the adapter you bought? I have this same setup and have been looking for a solution

I can, but I bought it years ago (when I was running a Mac mini server), so the specific one isn’t in stock. But the specifics of the dummy don’t matter, it just needs to be a display, literally any HDMI display, that can keep a display engine in use while the first XDR comes up. That way it can’t bond both at initialization. Good luck!

 

[Chancha]

That CalDigit info indicates that 3 displays is supported by the M5 Pro from a single Thunderbolt 5 host port using the CalDigit Thunderbolt 5 dock. They say 4 displays is supported from the CalDigit Thunderbolt 5 dock when connected to a M5 Max, but that requires at least one of the displays to be a Thunderbolt display or connected to a downstream Thunderbolt device because the Thunderbolt 5 dock has only 3 DisplayPort Out Adapters.

The ioreg output would indicate why only 3 displays is supported by the M5 Pro from a single Thunderbolt 5 host port. Also, the ioreg output does not require having 3 displays and Thunderbolt devices to test the result.

I can see you across other threads also asking for the ioreg file generated from M5 Pro to help verifying the above speculation, but so far no one has offered the help yet lol.

Right from the get go when the MBPs were announced last month, just looking at the spec sheet of the M5 Max and seeing 4 daisy chained displays is supported, the first thing that came to my mind was if Apple finally gave up and implement DP MST? Otherwise how else would this have been achieved. Then, knowing how the M5 Pro is just a chiplet with the GPU cores and media engine section on the M5 Max missing, wouldn't it supposed to have lost half the display buffers as well like what happened on M1 Pro/Max and M2 Pro/Max? But instead it only lost one display off the chain. This does look like something proprietary was done on the M5 Pro, then by extension the +1 is carried forward to the M5 Max?

 

[AbeLincoln1984]

Right from the get go when the MBPs were announced last month, just looking at the spec sheet of the M5 Max and seeing 4 daisy chained displays is supported, the first thing that came to my mind was if Apple finally gave up and implement DP MST?

Also: 4 daisy chained displays at 120Hz? Unlikely, imo.

From my reading, Apple has not officially implemented DST, but has some modified version to do exactly what's best for them and no one else.