Surface Devices

[SteveJUAE]

has anyone else seen this?

The main problem I see Microsoft having is competition with Apples M chipset. Now that they have started the roadmap for in house chips, Apple will be a force to be reckoned with. The M1 is only the first M chipset that they have produced and it’s already a beast.

Microsoft need to bring the thunder BIG time!

Yes but then again not

There is an overwhelming fact that regardless how fast the M1's etc are/will be MacOS will largely remain primarily a home/hobbyist platform. Even by Apples own metrics the number of professionals using high end pro apps/programs regularly is a small fraction of users.

While Apple can gouge the common man in to buying 2 or 3 devices and keep them in the ECO loop the M1's will ensure they keep the faithful and the trapped and claw back some defectors

Most of the world runs on cheap old chipsets and not the latest or greatest speed demons

I doubt anyone is paying $1000's on multiple annual software license (that play to the M1 strengths) and then running it on a M1 MBA let alone a SPX, these test are not the norm for most users

The Surface 2 in 1's fill a niche in the market for those that it suits to have a solution in one device and not multiple and so compete in a different demographic. The Arm chipset is a flimsy tangible commonality between MBA and SPX and shows off the raw power of M1's

 

[Steve Adams]

I just said this in another thread here. 90 percent of computer users don't care what processor is in their machines. OS is more important than Processor. Therefore M1 is only going to shift current apple users deeper into the garden. Not many windows users are going to go running to apple now with M1, Why? because we don't care what processor is in the macbook it's still a macbook running OSX/MacOS. That in itself is enough to stay away.

 

[c0ppo]

Thing is the M1 Mac's are genuinely extremely fast no bones about it. My own M1 MBP out performs my very performant Hex Core 17" Asus notebook, significantly so.

According to Steve, anything and everything is better than M1
You probably know my backstory. Unlike you, I haven't purchased M1 MBP/MBA. I've used a few in a company environment, but nothing more than that. Maybe in a few years I will purchase MBP again, who knows?

But I have to give Apple credit where credit is due. I would personally kill for some chip like M1. Extremely fast while in the same time cold and silent. Hopefully AMD keeps on innovating, or Qualcomm comes with some great chip for laptops. Linux is already almost completely ARM ready, unlike Windows, so I won't have any issues with software

 

[kazmac]

I would like to see the new Studio

If they make a smaller Studio, I’d definitely consider that if the pen jitter is fixed and the internals are better.

If Microsoft can up the bar on the pen experience, I’d gladly give the SP another try. I’m so over the buggy, touch disease laden iPads, but love the pencil and Procreate. As a result, I still prefer iPads despite the issues.

 

[Dave245]

Yes but then again not

There is an overwhelming fact that regardless how fast the M1's etc are/will be MacOS will largely remain primarily a home/hobbyist platform. Even by Apples own metrics the number of professionals using high end pro apps/programs regularly is a small fraction of users.

While Apple can gouge the common man in to buying 2 or 3 devices and keep them in the ECO loop the M1's will ensure they keep the faithful and the trapped and claw back some defectors

Most of the world runs on cheap old chipsets and not the latest or greatest speed demons

I doubt anyone is paying $1000's on multiple annual software license (that play to the M1 strengths) and then running it on a M1 MBA let alone a SPX, these test are not the norm for most users

The Surface 2 in 1's fill a niche in the market for those that it suits to have a solution in one device and not multiple and so compete in a different demographic. The Arm chipset is a flimsy tangible commonality between MBA and SPX and shows off the raw power of M1's

The Surface line is a very niche market. For example it's sales don't even beat the iPad lineup. I think the M1 chipset is impressive, lets not forget that it's Apple first gen M processor, it will only get better from here.

Yes I agree that it does come down to OS as well sometimes, personally I much prefer MacOS than Windows, I think a lot of creative professionals think the same. Final Cut Pro (which is Mac only) is miles better than anything on the Windows side (in my opinion).

That being said Windows is better for the everyday user, and certainly for gamers. For example the number of games available on Windows is much higher than on Mac (Steam and so on).

Apple are probably the only company that do not offer a touch screen laptop. However the iPad is a much better tablet than the Surface, while the Surface is a much better computer than the iPad. Trade offs.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Dave do not forget MacOS is equally a minority as is the Surface 2 in 1's vs Mobile OS tablets, as you note

Given FCP is a one time fee (currently) it's cheapness along with the simple fact that the very format we use to look at reviews etc propagates the over importance of video software and advantages of super fast chips that are largely irrelevant to most

The number of professionals using FCP is minor and for hobbyists saving 7 mins on a render is no more than the difference of you making a cup of tea opposed to your wife and largely irrelevant other than self satisfaction with your new gadget

Whilst time is money, very few are governed by say once or twice a day final production of a video that is done a few mins faster. Most of the world are spending time doing routine things and data entry/typing, M1's wont change or improve that for the majority

I know you had limited time with your Surface device and surprised if you spent significant time exploring alternatives to FCP, not that it matters as your happy with FCP but I expect it to change to subscription based sooner than we think as growth is limited.

Only us more dedicated users (like here) discuss various merits of different systems. By far the average user buys by budget and if their budget stretches to Apple products then they may be considered especially if they already own Apple products.

M1's are far less likely pivot points on buying decisions for most compared to gaming and multiple use scenarios IMO along with OS familiarity

 

[Queen6]

According to Steve, anything and everything is better than M1
You probably know my backstory. Unlike you, I haven't purchased M1 MBP/MBA. I've used a few in a company environment, but nothing more than that. Maybe in a few years I will purchase MBP again, who knows?

But I have to give Apple credit where credit is due. I would personally kill for some chip like M1. Extremely fast while in the same time cold and silent. Hopefully AMD keeps on innovating, or Qualcomm comes with some great chip for laptops. Linux is already almost completely ARM ready, unlike Windows, so I won't have any issues with software

As long as the M1 serves the users purpose there is little to be put off by them. What my own M1 MBP can do it excels at, what it doesn't it simply does not, or wont until other SW catches up. For a 13" notebook a lot of the boxes are checked barring ports and Magsafe, the latter is not so important now due to the M1 MBP's spectacular battery runtime.

I'd be far more cautious of digging deep for an Apple silicon 16" MBP until the SW base matures and the next Gen chassis is tried & proven. For the asking price I think that the M1's do now present good value for the average user, more so for those that can generate revenue on one as they can replace larger more costly systems.

Totally agree all the PC manufacturer's would kill for such computational & thermal performance which is unlikely to come to fruition for a good few years more. M1's do have limitation's and you have to deal with Apple, for me I don't use the vast majority of Apple's bundleware. All I need from Apple is to keep on improving the OS, the rest I'll mange myself.

Mac's will never likely be mainstream in the Pro world, yet some do use use Apple's hardware very effectively. A lot dropped portable Mac's due to performance, throttling & ports with much of this resolved people will naturally look to reconsider, especially given the performance & battery life gains where time counts.

TLDR M1 Mac's are far from perfect, yet they are very far away from being a poor product.

Q-6

 

[Dave245]

Dave do not forget MacOS is equally a minority as is the Surface 2 in 1's vs Mobile OS tablets, as you note

Given FCP is a one time fee (currently) it's cheapness along with the simple fact that the very format we use to look at reviews etc propagates the over importance of video software and advantages of super fast chips that are largely irrelevant to most

The number of professionals using FCP is minor and for hobbyists saving 7 mins on a render is no more than the difference of you making a cup of tea opposed to your wife and largely irrelevant other than self satisfaction with your new gadget

Whilst time is money, very few are governed by say once or twice a day final production of a video that is done a few mins faster. Most of the world are spending time doing routine things and data entry/typing, M1's wont change or improve that for the majority

I know you had limited time with your Surface device and surprised if you spent significant time exploring alternatives to FCP, not that it matters as your happy with FCP but I expect it to change to subscription based sooner than we think as growth is limited.

Only us more dedicated users (like here) discuss various merits of different systems. By far the average user buys by budget and if their budget stretches to Apple products then they may be considered especially if they already own Apple products.

M1's are far less likely pivot points on buying decisions for most compared to gaming and multiple use scenarios IMO along with OS familiarity

The issue for me personally is that I was trained with Final Cut Pro X, at university we had Mac Labs. It's not really an issue in the sense that I don't make my money off of editing, it's something I do every now and then to help out friends or colleagues. My money comes from writing.

I had a couple of months with the Surface Pro 6, it wasn't a bad machine that's the thing. I actually did like it, I just had no need to keep it around after Apple sent me a new iPad Pro (which I really wasn't expecting with the way things were going). The Surface Pro range is great if you want more of a PC that can be a tablet. The kickstand is great, as well as the pen and the screen.

Apple has a very good way of keeping people in the ecosystem, I'm a prime example of that. As you know I have tried different devices from different companies (Samsung phones, Surface hardware) but I end up coming back to Apple. It's why they are worth over 2 Trillion dollars.

 

[LeeW]

A lot dropped portable Mac's due to performance, throttling & ports with much of this resolved people will naturally look to reconsider, especially given the performance & battery life gains where time counts.

TLDR M1 Mac's are far from perfect, yet they are very far away from being a poor product.

I am holding out for the next chip and new devices but will likely be back in soon. The M1 Mac Mini was such an improvement and for my use case as close to a perfect performing low power device I could get.

Actually annoyed I jumped back off by selling it so soon given the expected delays on the new devices. Looking like June or later. Not far away but at the same point, I have a PC blowing away here that I just don't need the performance or power draw it provides most of the time I am using it.

Don't get me wrong, loving my PC and Windows, just overkill unless I am gaming which is at best a few hours per week and the M1 handled it just fine.

 

[kazmac]

The M1s are nice but the software incompatibility and Big Sur bugs/lock down are very frustrating. I'd love a Snow Leopard style experience with the M1 hardware.

As it turns out, my Asus G14 was a dud 🙄 and my potential employer may provide me with a PC. I am open to owning a PC though, so I'll watch and wait.

 

[Expos of 1969]

The M1s are nice but the software incompatibility and Big Sur bugs/lock down are very frustrating. I'd love a Snow Leopard style experience with the M1 hardware.

As it turns out, my Asus G14 was a dud 🙄 and my potential employer may provide me with a PC. I am open to owning a PC though, so I'll watch and wait.

You have very poor luck. About 90% of tech you purchase are duds. Countless iPads etc.

 

[Dave245]

i just saw this video, seems like it’s teasing something. A nice video as well from Microsoft.

panos is a brilliant keynote speaker, he sounds so passionate. Kind of reminds me of Steve jobs in that way.

 

[LeeW]

i just saw this video, seems like it’s teasing something.

Would like to be surprised for a change. Well, they have surprised me, just at how poorly their vision has translated into hardware recently.

 

[kazmac]

You have very poor luck. About 90% of tech you purchase are duds. Countless iPads etc.

Better luck is coming, I am confident my tech purchases will be fine going forward.

Hmmm.. that video was interesting, MS trying to be cryptic. @Dave245 thanks for posting.

 

[Steve Adams]

I wish they would make a surface monitor. I would be down for that completely.

 

[Queen6]

The M1s are nice but the software incompatibility and Big Sur bugs/lock down are very frustrating. I'd love a Snow Leopard style experience with the M1 hardware.

As it turns out, my Asus G14 was a dud 🙄 and my potential employer may provide me with a PC. I am open to owning a PC though, so I'll watch and wait.

With M1 Mac's you need to do some homework first regarding SW. For me so far my own M1 MBP presents that Snow Leopard experience. The OS is further locked down or more secure, depending on the view point equally as long as the M1 does what I need, it doesn't bother overly.

I utilise very little of Apple's bundleware, mostly known or open source applications, so far so good. Most is Intel based with Rosetta 2 taking care of that, being for the most part seamless. As SW compatibility advances Mac's to me are on a good yet imperfect path. As long as Apple does not get overly zealous with the next generation of chassis. I rather suspect without Jony Ive's input, a semblance of common sense will prevail. First and foremost a Mac is a tool for purpose, needing to serve the users needs first and foremost not just look fabulous on the coffee table...

Q-6

 

[Mike Boreham]

I have just bought a used Surface Laptop 3 (13.5") to use alongside my M1 MBA to keep my hand in on the dark side.

All good, very nice build construction (have the all metal black).

Only puzzle is that I like to be able to see fan speeds and CPU temps on my laptops. No problem with temps but all four popular utilities I have tried do not show fan speeds.

Either my SL3 is faulty or the SL3 does not support fan speeds.

I have asked on a couple of Surface forums and over 200 people have seen my posts but no replies!

Anyone here know?

Thanks!

 

[kazmac]

With M1 Mac's you need to do some homework first regarding SW. For me so far my own M1 MBP presents that Snow Leopard experience. The OS is further locked down or more secure, depending on the view point equally as long as the M1 does what I need, it doesn't bother overly.

I utilise very little of Apple's bundleware, mostly known or open source applications, so far so good. Most is Intel based with Rosetta 2 taking care of that, being for the most part seamless. As SW compatibility advances Mac's to me are on a good yet imperfect path. As long as Apple does not get overly zealous with the next generation of chassis. I rather suspect without Jony Ive's input, a semblance of common sense will prevail. First and foremost a Mac is a tool for purpose, needing to serve the users needs first and foremost not just look fabulous on the coffee table...

Q-6

I did do my homework with the software (namely what I primarily used outside of apps I know are no longer compatible with macOS), but software I did not expect to use has not migrated over. Sadly, I have a lot of iTunes purchases and that means DMR problems. I knew the DMR issues going in, however as Apple increasingly cripples native apps in iOS and macOS to force you to subscribe to iCloud to get those features back, it’s becoming a less appealing option to me.

I am glad the M1 serves your purposes, it’s very good hardware and probably better if you can avoid Apple software and services.

 

[MiniApple]

i just saw this video, seems like it’s teasing something. A nice video as well from Microsoft.

panos is a brilliant keynote speaker, he sounds so passionate. Kind of reminds me of Steve jobs in that way.

Don't expect new designs or major new devices.
If the rumors are true, most likely it's just spec/chip refreshes and an AMD version.

Wouldn't mind a small device that can make and receive cellular phone calls that runs entirely on some versions of windows (without the Google Android part), but that's probably even too far into the future for the rumored Surface Duo 2 this fall.

I miss the brilliant NOKIA Lumia's with Windows Phone / Windows10 Mobile and those awesome Carl Zeiss cameras.

 

[Queen6]

I did do my homework with the software (namely what I primarily used outside of apps I know are no longer compatible with macOS), but software I did not expect to use has not migrated over. Sadly, I have a lot of iTunes purchases and that means DMR problems. I knew the DMR issues going in, however as Apple increasingly cripples native apps in iOS and macOS to force you to subscribe to iCloud to get those features back, it’s becoming a less appealing option to me.

I am glad the M1 serves your purposes, it’s very good hardware and probably better if you can avoid Apple software and services.

DRM I simply avoid. I get the whole licence to listen or watch, equally I should be able to consume regardless of plat form without restriction. Not going to play that game, so will continue purchase elsewhere, including physical disks and utilise 3rd party players that can.

App's should work as long as they follow Apple's guidelines. TBH all I want is the hardware & OS X, the majority of Apple's bundleware can go in the trash for all I care more the merrier as I have little to no use for it.

FWIW no iCloud, have a secure single "key" encrypted cloud solution. Apple wants me to use iCloud will need to be point to point encryption with a sole user encryption key, until then Apple can "kiss it"

Q-6

 

[Dave245]

Don't expect new designs or major new devices.
If the rumors are true, most likely it's just spec/chip refreshes and an AMD version.

Wouldn't mind a small device that can make and receive cellular phone calls that runs entirely on some versions of windows (without the Google Android part), but that's probably even too far into the future for the rumored Surface Duo 2 this fall.

I miss the brilliant NOKIA Lumia's with Windows Phone / Windows10 Mobile and those awesome Carl Zeiss cameras.

Yea from what the rumours are saying, there will be a Surface laptop 4 with updated specs. Personally i have no interest in the Surface laptop range (i have my MacBook). What i would like to see however (just out of interest) is a redesigned Surface Pro 8. A new design that's similar to the Pro X, thinner bezels, the slimline pen and so on.

 

[Steve Adams]

I would love to see a windows 10X handheld. It will never happen, but one can dream! HA HA>..

 

[kazmac]

DRM I simply avoid. I get the whole licence to listen or watch, equally I should be able to consume regardless of plat form without restriction. Not going to play that game, so will continue purchase elsewhere, including physical disks and utilise 3rd party players that can.

App's should work as long as they follow Apple's guidelines. TBH all I want is the hardware & OS X, the majority of Apple's bundleware can go in the trash for all I care more the merrier as I have little to no use for it.

FWIW no iCloud, have a secure single "key" encrypted cloud solution. Apple wants me to use iCloud will need to be point to point encryption with a sole user encryption key, until then Apple can "kiss it"

Q-6

As you have mentioned previously.🙂

My usage is not like yours, so the M1 doesn’t fit my needs as well as older Intel Macs do. I use local storage myself but my dependence on Notes, amongst other hamstringed native apps is changing now.

Regardless, whatever works for the person is fine by me.

 

[MiniApple]

What i would like to see however (just out of interest) is a redesigned Surface Pro 8. A new design that's similar to the Pro X, thinner bezels, the slimline pen and so on.

rumored for in the fall

I would love to see a windows 10X handheld. It will never happen, but one can dream! HA HA>..

if it’s about games, soon: iPad Mini with Controller (or attachment) and Xbox GamePass
I’m sure they will eventually release Windows10X on a future Duo or another new handheld device. Looking forward to it myself.

 

[Queen6]

As you have mentioned previously.🙂

My usage is not like yours, so the M1 doesn’t fit my needs as well as older Intel Macs do. I use local storage myself but my dependence on Notes, amongst other hamstringed native apps is changing now.

Regardless, whatever works for the person is fine by me.

TBH I've never bought into Apple's ecosystem, just the base OS and hardware. I think that's why I've never really had much if any issue other than poor HW design. Apple cant hamstring what I use as it not their SW, if they were to block it that would be the end of the Mac as a usable tool, just be an iPad without touch and a fixed keyboard...

Q-6