Surface Devices

[Dave245]

With yesterday's news that Apple intends to release a Smart Keyboard with a trackpad alongside the next iPad Pro update, I was wondering if this is Apple's very subtle way of acknowledging that they were wrong about Surface type of devices? ie the tablet that can replace your laptop.

It seems that with iPadOS and now this rumoured/leaked info about a Smart Keyboard with a trackpad, Apple are moving closer and closer to an iPad that is more like a computer.

 

[xraydoc]

With yesterday's news that Apple intends to release a Smart Keyboard with a trackpad alongside the next iPad Pro update, I was wondering if this is Apple's very subtle way of acknowledging that they were wrong about Surface type of devices? ie the tablet that can replace your laptop.

It seems that with iPadOS and now this rumoured/leaked info about a Smart Keyboard with a trackpad, Apple are moving closer and closer to an iPad that is more like a computer.

A keyboard with a trackpad would be interesting, but I would be very surprised if Apple opened the file system on the iPad to a more traditional desktop model which most people I think equate with a computer. Sandboxed apps, with each app's document contained within the app container itself, is pretty integral to the iOS model of doing things. With all the years of development in that direction, I just can't see them undoing it. Though they did backtrack on the butterfly keyboard, so who knows.

I'm not a programmer, so I don't really know exactly what prevents developers like Microsoft and Adobe from porting their full applications to the iPad other than what I presume are significant API differences between macOS and iOS and thus inability to directly use their x86 code. Perhaps they still don't think there's a good sales market for that much effort. Otherwise, I have to imagine that it's technically possible to create as complex of an app for the iPad as one can on macOS.

If you're right, maybe Apple selling a keyboard with a trackpad for the iPad would indicate to developers that iPad owners want "full" apps (not majorly simplified versions) on their iPads, which would motivate the developers to invest the time/money into porting their major applications.

Or, dreaming here, Apple will release macOS for ARM with an x86 emulator as an option on the iPad (like the Surface Pro X).

 

[Dave245]

A keyboard with a trackpad would be interesting, but I would be very surprised if Apple opened the file system on the iPad to a more traditional desktop model which most people I think equate with a computer. Sandboxed apps, with each app's document contained within the app container itself, is pretty integral to the iOS model of doing things. With all the years of development in that direction, I just can't see them undoing it. Though they did backtrack on the butterfly keyboard, so who knows.

I'm not a programmer, so I don't really know exactly what prevents developers like Microsoft and Adobe from porting their full applications to the iPad other than what I presume are significant API differences between macOS and iOS and thus inability to directly use their x86 code. Perhaps they still don't think there's a good sales market for that much effort. Otherwise, I have to imagine that it's technically possible to create as complex of an app for the iPad as one can on macOS.

If you're right, maybe Apple selling a keyboard with a trackpad for the iPad would indicate to developers that iPad owners want "full" apps (not majorly simplified versions) on their iPads, which would motivate the developers to invest the time/money into porting their major applications.

Or, dreaming here, Apple will release macOS for ARM with an x86 emulator as an option on the iPad (like the Surface Pro X).

It's a very interesting topic, Apple have for many years disregarded so many devices from the Surface lineup. Apparently Tim Cook himself isn't a fan of hybrid devices like the Surface Pro. In an interview Tim Cook called the Surface Book "Diluted"

"It's a product that tries too hard to do too much," he said. "It's trying to be a tablet and a notebook and it really succeeds at being neither. It's sort of diluted."

Above is the exact quote from Tim Cook himself https://www.windowscentral.com/apple-ceo-tim-cook-slams-surface-book-trying-too-hard-do-too-much

I have always thought it odd that Apple haven't themselves tried to make such a device, can you imagine a MacBook with a detachable screen that as soon as you detach it, becomes an iPad. The software changes from MacOS to iPad OS. That would be a great device.

It seems that Apple are only interested in taking small steps at the moment, iPadOS is a nod to the iPad Pro being very powerful and needing its own OS. I will be very interested to see what Apple has up it's sleeve for the next version of iPadOS.

I do agree with you that the iPad needs full apps if it wants to compete with computers. I think Apple should work on porting over Final Cut Pro to the iPad Pro.

 

[SteveJUAE]

It's a very interesting topic, Apple have for many years disregarded so many devices from the Surface lineup. Apparently Tim Cook himself isn't a fan of hybrid devices like the Surface Pro. In an interview Tim Cook called the Surface Book "Diluted"


Above is the exact quote from Tim Cook himself https://www.windowscentral.com/apple-ceo-tim-cook-slams-surface-book-trying-too-hard-do-too-much

I have always thought it odd that Apple haven't themselves tried to make such a device, can you imagine a MacBook with a detachable screen that as soon as you detach it, becomes an iPad. The software changes from MacOS to iPad OS. That would be a great device.

It seems that Apple are only interested in taking small steps at the moment, iPadOS is a nod to the iPad Pro being very powerful and needing its own OS. I will be very interested to see what Apple has up it's sleeve for the next version of iPadOS.

I do agree with you that the iPad needs full apps if it wants to compete with computers. I think Apple should work on porting over Final Cut Pro to the iPad Pro.

I think we maybe surprised actually how few people actually use FCP and then there is the stealing sales from one device to another

This is before issues of programming or demographics of owners of who are the likely purchaser etc

 

[Queen6]

Personally I'll take a Surface Book versus needing multiple deliberately limited devices. What is diluted is Apple's computing line being always reigned in by the need to promote IOS devices & services. These days Apple launches a new notebook it's just a non-event with it either having more or less issues than the preceding model, with no clear advancements.

Surface is gaining evermore traction, equally it still remains to be a smaller aspect for Microsoft, which allows them to take bolder steps such as Surface Book, Surface Studio and the upcoming Duo & Neo or just maybe they simply have more imagination and creativity...

Q-6

 

[Dave245]

With the Surface Book 3 rumoured to be on the way, do you guys think there will be any hardware changes?

The Surface Book is a very interesting device, the fact that the top comes off and is usable as a tablet is appealing, but also that it can be used in so many different modes (the top comes off and can be turned around and re-attached for example).

Does anyone currently have a Surface Book 2 that they use around the house? Do you detach the screen to carry around and how well does that work?

 

[KarmaRocket]

If the rumors are true that the new Surface Book 3's will use GTX 1650/1660Ti, I think I would be really disappointed and maybe look somewhere else. I'm hoping for at least RTX. Plus with all the rumors of Nvidia's Ampere reducing TDP while increasing performance, I would think Microsoft would want to wait to see if they can put one of them in the SB3. And let's not forget about AMD, who've been working with MS and may come out with some interesting Raytracing GPU's themselves.

IMHO it seems a little prudent to be using last years GPU's for something they only update every 2-3 years.

 

[Falhófnir]

If the rumors are true that the new Surface Book 3's will use GTX 1650/1660Ti, I think I would be really disappointed and maybe look somewhere else. I'm hoping for at least RTX. Plus with all the rumors of Nvidia's Ampere reducing TDP while increasing performance, I would think Microsoft would want to wait to see if they can put one of them in the SB3. And let's not forget about AMD, who've been working with MS and may come out with some interesting Raytracing GPU's themselves.

IMHO it seems a little prudent to be using last years GPU's for something they only update every 2-3 years.

Well, Nvidia don't release GPU generations on a yearly cycle like Intel do CPUs, it's usually a 2-3 year cycle or so - sounds like we might see the 3070 and 3080 launch later this year, and the 3060 and 1750/60 (or whatever they're called) are almost certainly going to be next year. As for RTX I guess Microsoft would argue that's really a gaming feature, and the Surface Books aren't really gaming oriented devices. I do think they could do with offering something to help justify the increasingly indefensible pricing on the Surface Book side, but if they do make a more powerful machine then I think it should be a full gaming laptop running a H series (Intel or AMD) CPU and cooling that allows the GPU to actually perform to potential.

 

[Dave245]

At the moment my thinking is this:

Apple seem to have no interest in redesigning the iMac. I was thinking about getting a Surface book 3 (when it comes out) to sit on my desk and use as my desktop device, however when I need to use it as a tablet i could simply detach the screen and carry it around the house. Does that make sense or does it seem like a silly idea?
I would still have my 2019 13 Macbook Pro for MacOS programs and so on. But the Surface Book seems like it’s much more versatile.

 

[kazmac]

At the moment my thinking is this:

Apple seem to have no interest in redesigning the iMac. I was thinking about getting a Surface book 3 (when it comes out) to sit on my desk and use as my desktop device, however when I need to use it as a tablet i could simply detach the screen and carry it around the house. Does that make sense or does it seem like a silly idea?
I would still have my 2019 13 Macbook Pro for MacOS programs and so on. But the Surface Book seems like it’s much more versatile.

Not a silly idea. I liked the Surface Book 2 (One of the most comfortable keyboards I ever used), but I'd like longer battery life in the tablet itself.

Need to get a laptop next week to start relearning Office, but I do not want to put a lot of money into a 2019 model. Thinking about a starter laptop for Office and work related stuff; then later, a more robust machine for the creative stuff I want to get back to.

 

[xraydoc]

With the Surface Book 3 rumoured to be on the way, do you guys think there will be any hardware changes?

The Surface Book is a very interesting device, the fact that the top comes off and is usable as a tablet is appealing, but also that it can be used in so many different modes (the top comes off and can be turned around and re-attached for example).

Does anyone currently have a Surface Book 2 that they use around the house? Do you detach the screen to carry around and how well does that work?

I do. It works quite well other than the short battery life of the tablet portion (about 2.5 hours).

 

[Dave245]

I do. It works quite well other than the short battery life of the tablet portion (about 2.5 hours).

Not a silly idea. I liked the Surface Book 2 (One of the most comfortable keyboards I ever used), but I'd like longer battery life in the tablet itself.

Need to get a laptop next week to start relearning Office, but I do not want to put a lot of money into a 2019 model. Thinking about a starter laptop for Office and work related stuff; then later, a more robust machine for the creative stuff I want to get back to.

I wonder if they will increase the battery life in the Surface Book 3? Are we likely to see some hardware revisions as well? Maybe thinner bezels.

 

[Maukey]

I can get an Open Box Surface Pro 7 i5 - 8GB Ram - 256GB SSD, the Pro Signature Type Cover, Surface Pen, and 1 Yr of Microsoft Office Personal for $980. Worth it?

I’m currently locked into the Apple Eco System. I have a 2017 MacBook Pro and iPad Pro 11. Also have an iPhone and AppleTV. My MacBook Pro is having issues holding a charge and I’d just rather replace than repair. I’m just trying to decide if I should replace it with this Surface deal, or wait on the rumored MacBook Pro 14”. I’ve always loved the idea of the Surface and have been itching to try one. I’d mostly use it as a Laptop. My uses are casual. Browsing, Videos/Movies, light gaming, mainly emulators, EPlex Server, Xbox streaming, etc. I love the idea that I can do all this with the Surface in such a compact form. I could take my iPad Pro and Surface with me and they’d together weigh less than many laptops. Thoughts? Switch from MacOS to Windows? MacBook Pro to Surface 7? MacBook Pro to another Mac? All opinions and experiences welcome

 

[Falhófnir]

I can get an Open Box Surface Pro 7 i5 - 8GB Ram - 256GB SSD, the Pro Signature Type Cover, Surface Pen, and 1 Yr of Microsoft Office Personal for $980. Worth it?

I’m currently locked into the Apple Eco System. I have a 2017 MacBook Pro and iPad Pro 11. Also have an iPhone and AppleTV. My MacBook Pro is having issues holding a charge and I’d just rather replace than repair. I’m just trying to decide if I should replace it with this Surface deal, or wait on the rumored MacBook Pro 14”. I’ve always loved the idea of the Surface and have been itching to try one. I’d mostly use it as a Laptop. My uses are casual. Browsing, Videos/Movies, light gaming, mainly emulators, EPlex Server, Xbox streaming, etc. I love the idea that I can do all this with the Surface in such a compact form. I could take my iPad Pro and Surface with me and they’d together weigh less than many laptops. Thoughts? Switch from MacOS to Windows? MacBook Pro to Surface 7? MacBook Pro to another Mac? All opinions and experiences welcome

I guess the only way to really know is to try it out for yourself - have you been in to have a play with a surface in store/ done your homework with reviews? Hands on experience is the best way to pick up if you're going to have any issues with a device. IMO iPhones and iPads work just as well with iTunes for Windows as they do with Mac, so in that regard I don't expect you'll have any problems. The thing I'd be looking for is the screen size, the Pro 7 does have a 12.3" screen (taller 3:2 aspect) vs the MacBook Pro's 13.3" (wider 16:10) for me that's quite small for a main machine (unless you have a desktop for that role?) but you may feel differently about that.

 

[Maukey]

I guess the only way to really know is to try it out for yourself - have you been in to have a play with a surface in store/ done your homework with reviews? Hands on experience is the best way to pick up if you're going to have any issues with a device. IMO iPhones and iPads work just as well with iTunes for Windows as they do with Mac, so in that regard I don't expect you'll have any problems. The thing I'd be looking for is the screen size, the Pro 7 does have a 12.3" screen (taller 3:2 aspect) vs the MacBook Pro's 13.3" (wider 16:10) for me that's quite small for a main machine (unless you have a desktop for that role?) but you may feel differently about that.

I've tried it out. Actually purchased the Surface Pro 4 a couple years back. Decided that the MacBook Pro was more to my liking as during that time I was focused on seeing if the Surface Pro could replace my iPad and Macbook. I didn't like the Surface as a Tablet and didn't feel I could give up my iPad. Decided to stay with Mac and iPad even though I really loved the form factor and innovativeness of the Surface Pro. It just felt really cool to have a full blown, somewhat powerful computer in such a small and portable package. The kickstand and removable keyboard was super ideal for video watching. I may just purchase and give it another test run.

 

[Dave245]

I wonder when Surface Neo will start shipping, while I'm thinking about the Surface Book 3, I'm also very interested in the Surface Neo and Duo. I think the Neo could be a great device, very portable. It will depend on the battery life and how powerful it will be.

 

[Queen6]

I wonder when Surface Neo will start shipping, while I'm thinking about the Surface Book 3, I'm also very interested in the Surface Neo and Duo. I think the Neo could be a great device, very portable. It will depend on the battery life and how powerful it will be.

I rather expect Surface Neo to be on the lines of my UPMC with it's i7 Y series CPU. Faster/more powerful than Surface Go, however less than Surface Pro. Battery life who knows, dual screens are going to impact, random guess 8-10 hours with a real life sustained usage of half of that.

Windows X will be a big factor, nor is the dual display & UI the challenge as battery runtime will be the significant factor. Neo can be an outstanding product, equally without a reasonable runtime on battery it will be dead in the water and potentially kill the concept.

Q-6

 

[Dave245]

I rather expect Surface Neo to be on the lines of my UPMC with it's i7 Y series CPU. Faster/more powerful than Surface Go, however less than Surface Pro. Battery life who knows, dual screens are going to impact, random guess 8-10 hours with a real life sustained usage of half of that.

Windows X will be a big factor, nor is the dual display & UI the challenge as battery runtime will be the significant factor. Neo can be an outstanding product, equally without a reasonable runtime on battery it will be dead in the water and potentially kill the concept.

Q-6

it’s going to b interesting that’s for sure. I’m keeping my eyes open for the Neo, Duo and the Surface Book 3, I will then make my decision (between the Neo and Surface Book 3). The duo I think I will buy anyway, depending on reviews and battery life.

 

[meddow]

i cant wait for the duo personally

 

[Dave245]

The Surface Duo can't come soon enough (I really hope it drops earlier than "holiday 2020) I'm so annoyed at Apple.

My AirPods Pro were faulty, after about an hour on the phone, they agreed to replace them. I needed to send the faulty ones back to them and accept a £265 hold on my debit card, which I was told would be released 48 hours after they received the faulty AirPods Pro. I received the replacement, sent the faulty ones back to them and the hold is still on my card. I have logged into the my support page and apparently a "technician will diagnose the issue soon" what is the point of that when they have already sent me a replacement which I don't have to send back! not only that but they haven't released the hold on my card. If it doesn't disappear by the 21st of March, it will apparently turn into a charge.

Apple customer service and the overall service is a joke. Since when did Apple drop the ball on their quality and customer service?

 

[Queen6]

The Surface Duo can't come soon enough (I really hope it drops earlier than "holiday 2020) I'm so annoyed at Apple.

My AirPods Pro were faulty, after about an hour on the phone, they agreed to replace them. I needed to send the faulty ones back to them and accept a £265 hold on my debit card, which I was told would be released 48 hours after they received the faulty AirPods Pro. I received the replacement, sent the faulty ones back to them and the hold is still on my card. I have logged into the my support page and apparently a "technician will diagnose the issue soon" what is the point of that when they have already sent me a replacement which I don't have to send back! not only that but they haven't released the hold on my card. If it doesn't disappear by the 21st of March, it will apparently turn into a charge.

Apple customer service and the overall service is a joke. Since when did Apple drop the ball on their quality and customer service?

When $$$$ became more important than the customer, sadly Apple sold out a long time ago...

Q-6

 

[xraydoc]

The Surface Duo can't come soon enough (I really hope it drops earlier than "holiday 2020) I'm so annoyed at Apple.

My AirPods Pro were faulty, after about an hour on the phone, they agreed to replace them. I needed to send the faulty ones back to them and accept a £265 hold on my debit card, which I was told would be released 48 hours after they received the faulty AirPods Pro. I received the replacement, sent the faulty ones back to them and the hold is still on my card. I have logged into the my support page and apparently a "technician will diagnose the issue soon" what is the point of that when they have already sent me a replacement which I don't have to send back! not only that but they haven't released the hold on my card. If it doesn't disappear by the 21st of March, it will apparently turn into a charge.

Apple customer service and the overall service is a joke. Since when did Apple drop the ball on their quality and customer service?

They just check that what you sent back is genuine and not purposefully damaged, dunked in water, etc.
I've had less trouble with mail-in service than in-store.
Not defending, just giving you my experience.

 

[Dave245]

They just check that what you sent back is genuine and not purposefully damaged, dunked in water, etc.
I've had less trouble with mail-in service than in-store.
Not defending, just giving you my experience.

I can understand that they need to do that. I just think Apple support shouldn’t promise that the hold will only last 48 hours, when in fact it’s been nearly a week.

 

[kazmac]

I can understand that they need to do that. I just think Apple support shouldn’t promise that the hold will only last 48 hours, when in fact it’s been nearly a week.

Given that repairs are increasingly moved off site, and now the coronavirus, I wouldn't expect speedy resolution.

For me, Apple's QC has been bad since late 2013, and it's only gotten worse, especially in past four years. I currently say I may remain cross platform, but I'll see how this year goes with my Lenovo Yoga. I am not using it for cross platform things.

 

[Dave245]

Given that repairs are increasingly moved off site, and now the coronavirus, I wouldn't expect speedy resolution.

For me, Apple's QC has been bad since late 2013, and it's only gotten worse, especially in past four years. I currently say I may remain cross platform, but I'll see how this year goes with my Lenovo Yoga. I am not using it for cross platform things.

But that’s the thing, they don’t need repairing since Apple sent me a replacement pair of AirPods Pro. All they need to do is release the hold on my debit card.