SurfaceBook 2x Faster than MBP False Advertising..

kokhoong0624

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Original poster
Aug 23, 2015
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To whoever who is going to preorder!
I was so excited when I see this slide and wanted to preorder one immediately:
screen shot 2015-10-07 at 10.13.38 am.png.jpeg

It looks great with a stylus, and with the touchscreen and tablet mode almost made me preorder one.
Then I realized, the Macbook Pro in the ad is running Mavericks.. it's 2012 version which probably come with a CD ROM and Hard Drive and 4G of RAM.
And a further evaluation of it's specs prove me right...
Some comparisons:
SurfaceBook 1499 USD:
  • i5 CPU - Skylake, i5-6300U, Integrated HD 520 Graphics
    • 15 W TDP Ultra low wattage processor
    • 2.4GHz to 3.0 GHz
    • Same lineup of processor with the Macbook Air (TDP)
  • 128 GB SSD
  • 8GB RAM
  • 3000*2000 Resolution

Retina Macbook Pro 13 inch 1499 USD
  • i5 CPU - Broadwell, i5-5257U, Integrated Iris 6100 Graphics
    • 28W TDP low wattage processor
    • Have the highest end for integrated graphics in the 28W line up
    • Graphic performance > HD520
  • 256GB SSD
  • 8GB RAM
  • 2560*1600 Resolution

Short conclusion:
The retina Macbook Pro have a larger SSD, Faster CPU and a better integrated graphics. The Surface Book is hybrid, higher resolution and have a stylus.

Comparison for the high end:

2699 USD Surface Book:
  • i7 CPU- Skylake, i7-6600U, Integrated HD 520 Graphics
    • 15 W TDP Ultra low wattage processor
    • 2.6GHz to 3.4 GHz
    • Same lineup of processor with the Macbook Air (TDP)
  • 512GB SSD
  • Have an dedicated graphics card (GTX 940M/950M-predicted)
  • 16GB RAM
  • 3000*2000 Resolution

Retina Macbook Pro 15 inch 2699USD (Compared because same price)
  • i7 CPU - Haswell, i7-4980HQ, Integrated Iris Pro 5200 Graphics
    • 47W TDP processor 4 cores and 8 threads
    • Have the highest end for integrated graphics in the 47W line up
  • 1 TB SSD
  • 16GB RAM
  • 2880*1800 Resolution
  • Dedicated graphics card R9 M370X with 2GB GDDR5

Short conclusion: The retina macbook pro 15 inch hae a higher performance in both processing speed and graphics. The surface book have an advantage of the stylus, higher resolution and its hybrid form.

Why is it a low power processor?
13 inch laptops which boasts a 12 hour battery life, will have to use the lower wattage to increase battery performance.
The surface pro 3 i7 have the following specs:
i7- CPU Haswell, i7-4650U and Intel HD 5000 (15 W TDP), boasts a 9 hour battery life.
Macbook Air 2014 version also have the same high end i& CPU, boasts a 12 hour battery life.

How do you judge processors?
Judge it based on the TDP.
In recent generations the processors that are low TDP is very unlikely to beat a processor with a higher TDP.
4th gen is Haswell, 5th gen is Broadwell, 6th gen is Skylake.

All the processors will be separated into three groups:
  • 15 W TDP Ultra Low power Macbook Air standard processors
  • 28 W TDP Low power Macbook Pro 13 inch standard processors
  • 37W 2-core/47W 4-Core TDP High end Macbook Pro 15 inch standard processors
How do you compare?
For the processors of same TDP but different generations, the NEWER generations will beat the older generations.
For processors of different TDP, the processors will be faster in the one with a higher TDP (REGARDLESS OF GENERATION)
Hence the processors in the SurfaceBook will NEVER beat the ones in the MacBook Pro.


How Microsoft can claim that it's faster by two times than the Macbook Pro?
Passmark Benchmark:
Intel HD 520- Expected score 500 - Surface Book i5/i7 Integrated graphics
HD 5000 - 596 - Macbook Air 2014
HD 6000 - 796 - Macbook Air 2015
Geforce 940M - 869 - Expected in Surfacebook USD 1899
Iris 6100 - 947 Retina MBP 13 2015
Iris Pro 5200 - 1180 Retina MBP 15 2015 integrated graphics
Geforce 950M -1366
Gefore 960M - 1574
R9 M370X - 1985 Retina MBP 15 2015 Discrete graphics

Microsoft's comparison is that you have to get the $1,899 Surface Book to get "double" the graphical power of even the cheapest MacBook Pro, which goes for $1,299.

Only with the discrete graphics it is possible.. :l But not two times. And the integrated graphics is so mediocre (HD520) and can be find in any of the ultrabooks that are released recently. So don't expect great performance in tablet mode (without the discrete graphics).

Conclusion:
The SurfaceBook is a great laptop with great design, but for the specs it offers, it is too expensive, especially the low power processors and very mediocre integrated graphics. Crossing my fingers to see the reviews soon.
 
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jmgregory1

macrumors 68000
Did you expect MS to magically create a "better" product at lower prices than Apple? They've proven time and again that when competing against Apple on a spec by spec basis, their prices are not lower, and in many cases, their specs don't really beat or even match those they're comparing against. I'm not saying they should be lower in price, but MS is doing what any company will do when making a comparison - choose the competitive models based upon specs you can beat.
 
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Rhinoevans

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Oct 5, 2012
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How is it false?

Then I realized, the Macbook Pro in the ad is running Mavericks.. it's 2012 version which probably come with a CD ROM and Hard Drive and 4G of RAM.

That is the Macbook Pro I have, and yes it is in fact a MacBook Pro. I am sure that the CD Rom must slow it down for comparison.
 
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kokhoong0624

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Original poster
Aug 23, 2015
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Did you expect MS to magically create a "better" product at lower prices than Apple? They've proven time and again that when competing against Apple on a spec by spec basis, their prices are not lower, and in many cases, their specs don't really beat or even match those they're comparing against. I'm not saying they should be lower in price, but MS is doing what any company will do when making a comparison - choose the competitive models based upon specs you can beat.
I don't expect MS to create a "better" product at lower prices than Apple. But when they say that it's TWO times more powerful with a slide showing that on a keynote, I expect it to be at the same class or use at least the same class of processors that are equivalent to the Macbook Pro.. However now it's using the MacBook Air lineup processors instead... With a very mediocre graphics card.
 
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kokhoong0624

macrumors regular
Original poster
Aug 23, 2015
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How is it false?

Then I realized, the Macbook Pro in the ad is running Mavericks.. it's 2012 version which probably come with a CD ROM and Hard Drive and 4G of RAM.

That is the Macbook Pro I have, and yes it is in fact a MacBook Pro. I am sure that the CD Rom must slow it down for comparison.
It isn't false, it's Apple bad for not renaming the Macbook Pro into RetinaBook and calling it Macbook Pro with Retina Display instead.

EDIT: I assume MS comparing to the Retina MBP because the SufaceBooks have the competitive prices as the rMBP. Hence, I would easily assume that the keynote meant rMBP if I didn't look up the details.
 
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kokhoong0624

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Aug 23, 2015
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The BS is on both sides, and everywhere. The iPad Pro will not be faster than 80% of the laptops sold either. Coming up with such high-level metrics is an exorcise in crafting turds to be flowers - and everyone is doing it.
Yes I agree on this too. But considering it is running iOS.. IMO Even if the statistics is true, it won't do any real good too.. Since developers are still making apps for the iPad 2, I doubt any apps will use the full potential of the A9X chip.
 
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MrX8503

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Sep 19, 2010
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Shame on MS. The surface book is a MBA competitor.

So.... Why have a surface pro and book?
 
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leman

macrumors G4
Oct 14, 2008
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Yeah, its false advertising. I wonder why they didn't take a C2D MBP and claim 4x speed increase ;)

I also don't believe that there will be a 950M in that thing. Highest one can hope is a 940M, most likely however a 920M.
 
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Patrick-Photo

macrumors regular
Mar 22, 2012
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We'll MS didn't lie but didn't tell the full truth either. That's called advertising and selling your products, al most every multi-national company does that (one way or another). It's misleading yes but not illegal.
 
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maflynn

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May 3, 2009
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Nobody cares about 'surfacebook' ...
I do, and many folks seem too. Its generated a lot of positive buzz. I think the point of it running windows is fine, as win10 is a solid.

We'll MS didn't lie but didn't tell the full truth either. That's called advertising and selling your products, al most every multi-national company does that (one way or another). It's misleading yes but not illegal.
Agreed, the technical term is puffery, its a marking term to explain marketing hype. Apple does it, Google does it, Microsoft does it.

Do I expect the Surface Book to be faster then a 13" MBP, yes partly because it a newer processor AND it has a dGPU. Apple is about making products thinner. Microsoft seems to be more about making products faster. Only time will tell if Apple's update to the MBP line will leap frog the SurfaceBook.
 
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Max(IT)

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I do, and many folks seem too. Its generated a lot of positive buzz. I think the point of it running windows is fine, as win10 is a solid.


Agreed, the technical term is puffery, its a marking term to explain marketing hype. Apple does it, Google does it, Microsoft does it.

Do I expect the Surface Book to be faster then a 13" MBP, yes partly because it a newer processor AND it has a dGPU. Apple is about making products thinner. Microsoft seems to be more about making products faster. Only time will tell if Apple's update to the MBP line will leap frog the SurfaceBook.
Not all the variants have a dGPU. The base model and the base model with a bigger SSD have a very low level integrated GPU (not at the level of the Iris 6100).
And even the dGPU used is not top of the class...
 
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MissionMan01

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Oct 12, 2015
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My guess is the reason they used a 2012 is because 2013 was when Apple started using PCI SSD's instead of SATA 3. PCI is faster and Microsoft only introduced it on the SP4.
 
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maflynn

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Not all the variants have a dGPU. The base model and the base model with a bigger SSD have a very low level integrated GPU (not at the level of the Iris 6100).
You're right
And even the dGPU used is not top of the class...
But this is better then nothing the 13" MBP, at least MS put one in.
 
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cycledance

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Oct 15, 2010
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microsoft is a lying pos. as i said hours after news media all over the world mindlessly copy pasted their false claims.

and this should be a story on the front page.

waiting for the reports on the snapping hinge on this crap design.
 
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duervo

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Feb 5, 2011
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HD 520 compared to Iris 6100:

Larger texture rate, large pixel rate, supports DDR4, supports higher resolutions, and uses less power.

Not sure where people are getting the idea that Iris 6100 beats HD 520. On its worst day, (with DDR3), the HD 520 would be really close to a tie with Iris 6100 (edge given to the latter, but some real world benchies will give the definitive answer here, which means everyone is going to have to wait and see.) There's something to be said for higher resolution support, higher pixel and texture rates, while using less power. Something that seems to be ignored in this thread for some reason.

Oh, and the blurb about higher TDP always outperforming lower TDP, regardless of generation, is complete hogwash. Tell that to Nehalem and see what they have to say about Penryn. Hell, for that matter, tell that to HD 520 (15W) and see what they have to say about Iris 6100 (28W).

I don't completely buy "2x faster" either, but I also believe that hyperbole is starting to get out of hand on both sides.
 
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leman

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Oct 14, 2008
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But this is better then nothing the 13" MBP, at least MS put one in.
I have a suspicion that it will be a 920M, which is more or less comparable to HD6100

HD 520 compared to Iris 6100:

Larger texture rate, large pixel rate, supports DDR4, supports higher resolutions, and uses less power.

Not sure where people are getting the idea that Iris 6100 beats HD 520. On its worst day, (with DDR3), the HD 520 would be really close to a tie with Iris 6100 (edge given to the latter, but some real world benchies will give the definitive answer here, which means everyone is going to have to wait and see.)
You must be joking. HD520 has half of the processing units of HD6100. Texture rates and resolutions are completely irrelevant if there is no processing power. The real world performance of HD520 will be 50-75% of the HD6100, at best. And anyway, I don't even know where that "16 texture mapping units" in HD 520 come from. AFAIK, the configuration of EUs, subslices and samplers is the same between Gen8 and Gen9.
 
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maflynn

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I have a suspicion that it will be a 920M, which is more or less comparable to HD6100
This site is guessing that its a modified 950M. Why do you have a suspicion that its a 920M? I mean why put a dGPU in the computer if its not going to faster then a iGPU?

However now there’s been a suggestion that in fact, the discrete GPU may be a modified Maxwell graphics chip with a gigabyte of video memory, potentially with performance in the region of a 950M.
 
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leman

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Oct 14, 2008
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This site is guessing that its a modified 950M. Why do you have a suspicion that its a 920M? I mean why put a dGPU in the computer if its not going to faster then a iGPU?
It has been done before — to manipulate the customer. The reason why I don't think that GPU will be very fast is because of the dimensions of that laptop and the size of the battery. A Maxwell GPU (around 940M level) would certainly explain where they have that 2x performance increase over the MacBook Pro (13") from. I am curious though to what they have come up with.
 
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