Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I was unaware of VR welding instruction. Probably a perfect fit for VR. I wonder if there isn't a myriad of ways AR could assist in live welding. A visual overlay of angles, temperature of the work-piece (Note to the uninitiated: often the work-pieces must be pre-heated to prevent warping, etc.), outline of the welding working area, and so many I'll never think of.

AR welding has existed as a technology demo for years - twin high-framerate / high dynamic range cameras mounted on the forehead of the helmet, with periscope prisms to point forward, streaming back to VR optics in the helmet, provides the light adjustment of a traditional electronic welding glass, but also provides in-view guides for welding tool angle, arc length, travel speeds etc.

The real question is how useful this is, because it's primarily stuff that an experienced welder will already know, so the guides might just get in their way (in welding you're trying to reduce the amount of mediation between the welder's eyes and their workspace), and a welder who isn't experienced enough, probably shouldn't be working on anything that isn't a practice piece, so their learning might be better in a pure simulation.

That's the thing with AR - a lot of the things it's proposed as a solution for, aren't actually the problems the advocates think they are. This is pretty common when Great Technologist Saviours try to "solve" problems in ways that just so happen to require their contribution. The problem they're usually trying to solve is "how do I make (my thing) the solution to this problem?"

Look at education for a classic example - the only metric which has ever been demonstrated to improve educational outcomes for students, is fewer students per teacher. No laptop, tablet, electronic whiteboard, internet connection has ever produced a demonstrate improvement in educational outcomes.

Adding more teachers (or having fewer students) works consistently, but technology companies don't sell teachers, and laptops don't unionise and embarrass education ministers.

In the same ways, and I'm sure a lot more, AR would benefit woodworking, pipe fitting, smithing, and pretty much any craft work that requires precision.

Crafts that also require a clear vision of the work surface, in which the knowledge of what needs doing is internalised. What the AR dream effectively comes down to, is people imaging an AR programme that can teach them a new skill while they perform the task. Unfortunately, there are very few tasks that anyone should be learning unsupervised on the real target.


For example, someone might think "safety glasses that have an AR overlay so your CNC mill can tell you how deep the hole you've drilled is, so you can get it right without taking your eyes off the workpiece", except you wouldn't do that live, you'd pre-configure the mill to stop the drill at the appropriate depth, etc.

AR overlays for operating machinery and vehicles seems like a perfect fit as well. Aviation have utilized visor displays for some time now so we know humans can adapt to their use even in highly stressful situations.

Combat aircraft use them, and that's the real distinction. Combat aircraft use HUD / AR systems because they do things that no other aircraft have to do (save perhaps crop-dusting). There are actually very few use case scenarios where the need for information about the active work space is better deployed in a way that obscures the active workspace.
 
AR welding has existed as a technology demo for years - twin high-framerate / high dynamic range cameras mounted on the forehead of the helmet, with periscope prisms to point forward, streaming back to VR optics in the helmet, provides the light adjustment of a traditional electronic welding glass, but also provides in-view guides for welding tool angle, arc length, travel speeds etc.

The real question is how useful this is, because it's primarily stuff that an experienced welder will already know, so the guides might just get in their way (in welding you're trying to reduce the amount of mediation between the welder's eyes and their workspace), and a welder who isn't experienced enough, probably shouldn't be working on anything that isn't a practice piece, so their learning might be better in a pure simulation.

That's the thing with AR - a lot of the things it's proposed as a solution for, aren't actually the problems the advocates think they are. This is pretty common when Great Technologist Saviours try to "solve" problems in ways that just so happen to require their contribution. The problem they're usually trying to solve is "how do I make (my thing) the solution to this problem?"

Look at education for a classic example - the only metric which has ever been demonstrated to improve educational outcomes for students, is fewer students per teacher. No laptop, tablet, electronic whiteboard, internet connection has ever produced a demonstrate improvement in educational outcomes.

Adding more teachers (or having fewer students) works consistently, but technology companies don't sell teachers, and laptops don't unionise and embarrass education ministers.



Crafts that also require a clear vision of the work surface, in which the knowledge of what needs doing is internalised. What the AR dream effectively comes down to, is people imaging an AR programme that can teach them a new skill while they perform the task. Unfortunately, there are very few tasks that anyone should be learning unsupervised on the real target.


For example, someone might think "safety glasses that have an AR overlay so your CNC mill can tell you how deep the hole you've drilled is, so you can get it right without taking your eyes off the workpiece", except you wouldn't do that live, you'd pre-configure the mill to stop the drill at the appropriate depth, etc.



Combat aircraft use them, and that's the real distinction. Combat aircraft use HUD / AR systems because they do things that no other aircraft have to do (save perhaps crop-dusting). There are actually very few use case scenarios where the need for information about the active work space is better deployed in a way that obscures the active workspace.
All good points @mattspace! AR developers and engineers have a difficult road ahead, but we may be at the cusp of a transitional/disruptive technology similar to what the "home PC" was before computing became ubiquitous and was applied to every facet of our lives, or not. We can see the potential AR has for changing how we do some things but we probably can't imagine anything like what it actually becomes.

General Aviation, Civil Aviation, software development, and systems engineering would all benefit greatly from AR. Optical occlusion wouldn't be an issue even if current technology AR glasses were used. I can't think of an engineering field that AR wouldn't fit. Same for manufacturing and processing. Farming and food preparation too. Mature AR might become as ubiquitous as computing.... and it might not. But I do think it deserves more attention if for no other reason than prevent its misuse.
 
Apple will surely launch something in this space, they have invested tremendous amounts of resources into this and continue to do so. For what? For a few gimmicky iOS apps? I doubt it. They have the entire dev tooling built for AR. For 3rd party devs. Multiple frameworks like SceneKit & RealityKit - they actually started from scratch with RealityKit. I doubt they are pouring in so much time & money for a few gimmicky camera apps.
Also take a look at what competitors are doing. Xiaomi rushed to the market with a pair of half-assed glasses. Again, why would they do that? These are copy-cats, they just wanted to be able to say they were first and not Apple, when the killer-product finally drops.
It's a question of when and not if Apple will release Apple Glasses.
 
I for one am excited about Apple's foray into the VR / AR world. You can see things like the new HTC Vive Flow trying to shift devices into a more general consumption device, or even a monitor alternative and I think Apple will take a similar approach, albeit with much better software and industrial design.

While VR gaming is a primary driver right now, especially with incredible experiences like Half Life Alyx, VR / AR needs to break into a much broader audience for it to be viable to Apple. Also I think LIDAR and really natural hand tracking is going to be vital to the experience.

I can see Apple creating a premium device, which in turn will hopefully woo more premium developers to the platform.

Lots of hopes and wishes in this post 😅
 
Apple is full of very bright folks, so it’s quite possible they will come up with some use case we haven’t covered. The metaverse idea that Facebook seems to like so much is something Apple might be interested in as well. If they could make a VR headset look like a pair of glasses that would be impressive.

Its a space that has been explored only in sci fi. I wouldn’t be surprised to see an Apple pair of glasses, but I think there are a lot of edge cases to a good product in this space. Do you integrate vision adjustments for people who are less than 20/20? Do you have a display off mode for driving? Do you supply driving directions instead?

I don’t think a premium device would work well. I think Apple would aim to create a blockbuster product for everyone, you want to bring this new modality of interacting with the world to everyone. Perhaps there would be tight integration with the iPhone, so that you could do cutting edge visuals without having a great deal of processing on the device.
 
Its a space that has been explored only in sci fi. I wouldn’t be surprised to see an Apple pair of glasses, but I think there are a lot of edge cases to a good product in this space. Do you integrate vision adjustments for people who are less than 20/20? Do you have a display off mode for driving? Do you supply driving directions instead?

We are already using AR in the workplace occasionally (Hololens 2) - you just make it compatible with the glasses the user already has.

Driving very much depends on what the device does and the legislation enacted; but for now we aren't "there" yet with AR anyway.

Its a valuable tool for occasional niche usage, as it becomes more portable and less bulky it will be useful for more tasks.

I DO NOT see AR as being something necessarily to use whilst driving, but it DOES enable a product/solution expert to assist someone in remote locations without being physically present, and it does enable someone to do manual work that requires two hands with access to documentation or guidance at the same time. Classic use case for us being diagnostics and repair of mine site machinery.

For a machine that costs (for example) $100k/hr in lost production during downtime, a 5-10k AR solution pays for itself real quick, if it can avoid flying an expert to site that is going to take 24-48hrs or even more time.

It even pays for itself if the guy on the ground can simply talk to/show the remote helper exactly what is going on in real time, rather than downing tools, pulling out his camera and sending mail/video through, etc. Or having to go back to the office to then clean up and look at the product documentation at a desk.

We are actually realizing (financially) this benefit today and have been for 12+ months.
 
I had expected more interest in AR by our tech embracing community. I guess it could be a personal style issue? Some have said there are ethical issues — given every smart phone has an open mic and geo locator in it this one seems a thin argument against. There has been very little movement in this space for a few years now. Is it all just vaporware?
AR has no potential when it involves holding a viewfinder up to your face. None.

The application for AR is lenses and windshields. When Apple gets the glasses working, it will be a game changer, the first merger of AR with daily life. One day it can be added to car windshields too.
 
Thanks to everyone who has commented so far! Does anyone think Apple will eventually offer a product in AR? I'm not so sure they ever will.
There have been numerous reports that Apple is working on a pair of glasses that use AR. This product has all the potential in the world.
 
AR has no potential when it involves holding a viewfinder up to your face. None.

The application for AR is lenses and windshields. When Apple gets the glasses working, it will be a game changer, the first merger of AR with daily life. One day it can be added to car windshields too.

Yeah the AR through ipad/phone is clearly just very early prototype level stuff to enable developers to experiment with the developer APIs so Apple can refine them.

The ikea app and say, jigspace are cool but the real benefit will be as you say through a headset with hand tracking. that's a game changer.

Hololens already does this and has done for several years now. As always, apple are behind in terms of time to release, but i am betting that Apple's solution will be FAR more user friendly, refined and polished than holo-lens when it does eventually get here. Apple's product will be what takes AR mainstream. Facebook/Oculus had this opportunity there but facebook simply aren't trustworthy enough.

But as i said above, even right now holo-lens is great for niche use cases. Its not comfortable or got enough battery to use all day. But it is good enough for specific tasks when you need it - and already saves massive amounts of time and money if used for what it is currently good at.
 
I’ve read through 2 so called leaker summaries about Apple’s research in AR, and I recently found a YT video mention an outline of what Apple is working on and supposedly hopes to release in a couple years but I don’t believe the reports. I couldn’t know for sure but, they don’t own the facilities or have engineering staff for AR development at this time. Along the lines they don’t design battery cells, cameras, or display panels. Too specialized to keep completely secret for long. They could have partnered with someone under the table, but that would be a current market player. they want to be in it later when it’s not so risky to the brand Is my take on it.
 
I will be interested when I'll see something truly amazing in this field. So far AR or even VR is not looking like something that masses will enjoy.
 
If it has no camera capabilities, that would be odd, because Apple's entire use-case so far for AR is about putting virtual objects onto the real world. I'm not sure how a LIDAR scanner is going to work when there's dozens of them in the room, all spewing dots at the same time.
If the display is transparent, they can still put virtual objects in a real world, although that problem IS probably a bit trickier to solve than using cameras and then compositing the result.

And, if there’s dozens of LIDAR scanners spewing dots, the dots spewed should be synced to the spewer so other dots should be ignored. These scans are VERY quick and I’d guess that even a bunch of iPhones side by side capturing the same subject wouldn’t trip on each other.
 
I think a big problem Apple will need to solve is gaming , no matter what you might think those AR/VR devices will be used primarily for gaming and po*n , so a killer App is a must , sure , but being able to compete with the industry in gaming is a must for such a device , imagine the iPhone without games , you might think "na , not a big deal" , but you realize that those App Store revenues that Apple are getting is mostly games (I believe I saw something like over 95% or something).

As for now its still unclear to me why Apple wont put some serious money into developers pockets and get the popular games on their Platform , for a new platform this will need to be there as a selling point.

Also the other reason for low interest , nothing is out there , all we have are sketchy rumors , once its out and about , this sub forum will explode.
 
  • Like
Reactions: veena3
As for now its still unclear to me why Apple wont put some serious money into developers pockets and get the popular games on their Platform , for a new platform this will need to be there as a selling point.
Would paying developers to develop be a good long term strategy though? Developers and Apple are both motivated by profit. If developers don’t see an opportunity for enough profit in customers buying their product, should that profit be really come from Apple?
 
Would paying developers to develop be a good long term strategy though? Developers and Apple are both motivated by profit. If developers don’t see an opportunity for enough profit in customers buying their product, should that profit be really come from Apple?
It’s a chicken and egg problem , let’s take the Mac as an example , most will say Macs are not for gaming , but as you can see in baulders gate 3 for example , when running native it is capable , and runs really well , so if I have a new MacBook Pro with top of the line 4K 120hz display and want to play bg3 I will consider buying it on a mac , if you take twitch 30 most popular games and port them natively to Metal the max will be a gaming platform , because ppl will buy macs to both game and compute , while today if someone wants a machine that does both windows is the only way , once you have an established gaming crowd then it will become lucrative to create metal supported games , but the issue is getting that user base first , it’s the same for most mature market you want to disrupt , there will be a cost of entry (think streaming) , so long run they would not need to pay developers , short run I don’t see any other way to be honest
 
  • Like
Reactions: veena3
if you take twitch 30 most popular games and port them natively to Metal the max will be a gaming platform , because ppl will buy macs to both game and compute
If you take the 30 most popular games on Twitch and port them to Metal, then the Apple Silicon Macs will be a gaming platform with 30 games… which is fewer than the discontinued Atari Jaguar has. That’s not enough to build an established gaming crowd. However, if hundreds of developers decide to start developing, on their own, for Apple Silicon Macs, that’s a crowd for today and a larger crowd in the future.

Artificially creating a market by which developers are just being paid but not actually committing to the platform can’t lead to an actual growth in gaming.
 
It’s a chicken and egg problem , let’s take the Mac as an example , most will say Macs are not for gaming , but as you can see in baulders gate 3 for example , when running native it is capable , and runs really well , so if I have a new MacBook Pro with top of the line 4K 120hz display and want to play bg3 I will consider buying it on a mac

First line of a conclusion from a review of the graphical demands of Balders Gate 3:

Overall, Baldurs Gate 3 is not a very demanding game,

Thing is if we're talking VR & AR as the context, then the only real gaming analogue is full screen 1st person shooter performance. So, get a mac and look at it's 4k FPS, err, FPS, with all the options turned up to high, and you get a good idea of why VR developers just don't bother with the Mac.

The simple fact is Apple, and the hardware partners Apple chooses (AMD) have always offered second-rate options for that task - remember when they launched VR for the mac with great fanfare with Epic, the only machins they could do it on were the iMac Pros, and some app developers like Gravity Sketch initially didn't support the Vega 56 machines, because they were too underpowered.

Hell, Apple seemed to think stereoscopic video was "VR", which it isn't, so it's easy to see how they'd so tragically underspec a machine.

The real thing is that VR offers nothing for Apple to brand, and make look Apple-y, every VR environment is unique, tools, palettes, file navigators, they're all furnished in the style of the app - it's like the wild days of Kai Krause. What does Apple have to offer a world where the computer and operating system are just dumb pipes to the GPU and Unreal / SteamVR?
 
What does Apple have to offer a world where the computer and operating system are just dumb pipes to the GPU and Unreal / SteamVR?
I think you under-estimate the work apple is doing with AI/ML on their portable devices which will be useful for things like real world object recognition - when paired with the advanced sensors on their devices such as LIDAR, stereoscopic cameras, etc.

There's a LOT of stuff Apple is doing piece-meal on seemingly unrelated products that I'm sure people do not realise are all applicable to AR/VR products in the pipe.
 
I think you under-estimate the work apple is doing with AI/ML on their portable devices which will be useful for things like real world object recognition - when paired with the advanced sensors on their devices such as LIDAR, stereoscopic cameras, etc.

There's a LOT of stuff Apple is doing piece-meal on seemingly unrelated products that I'm sure people do not realise are all applicable to AR/VR products in the pipe.

I'm not under estimating it, I just don't think *VR* developers are going to care about what Apple does.

Apple is never going to prioritise high end graphical fidelity, and high end graphical fidelity is still where the cutting edge and interest is for people who are into immersive technology.

As for AR and Lidar stuff, Ultraleap is already doing all that, with actual shipping products and working tech. So just like ARKit is a dumb pipe to sensors, and noone cares about it - AR Developers develop for Unity and Unreal, it really doesn't matter what proprietary tech Apple brings to the market, because it will likely only be exploited to the extent that it has common overlap with other AR techs.
 
First line of a conclusion from a review of the graphical demands of Balders Gate 3:



Thing is if we're talking VR & AR as the context, then the only real gaming analogue is full screen 1st person shooter performance. So, get a mac and look at it's 4k FPS, err, FPS, with all the options turned up to high, and you get a good idea of why VR developers just don't bother with the Mac.

The simple fact is Apple, and the hardware partners Apple chooses (AMD) have always offered second-rate options for that task - remember when they launched VR for the mac with great fanfare with Epic, the only machins they could do it on were the iMac Pros, and some app developers like Gravity Sketch initially didn't support the Vega 56 machines, because they were too underpowered.

Hell, Apple seemed to think stereoscopic video was "VR", which it isn't, so it's easy to see how they'd so tragically underspec a machine.

The real thing is that VR offers nothing for Apple to brand, and make look Apple-y, every VR environment is unique, tools, palettes, file navigators, they're all furnished in the style of the app - it's like the wild days of Kai Krause. What does Apple have to offer a world where the computer and operating system are just dumb pipes to the GPU and Unreal / SteamVR?
If you take the 30 most popular games on Twitch and port them to Metal, then the Apple Silicon Macs will be a gaming platform with 30 games… which is fewer than the discontinued Atari Jaguar has. That’s not enough to build an established gaming crowd. However, if hundreds of developers decide to start developing, on their own, for Apple Silicon Macs, that’s a crowd for today and a larger crowd in the future.

Artificially creating a market by which developers are just being paid but not actually committing to the platform can’t lead to an actual growth in gaming.
I disagree , your notion that developers will just start writing games for metal without an additional incentive in today landscape is far fetched , getting those developers incentives to port their big games will also make them familiar with the platform and API’s , you will kill 2 birds with 1 stone , get the most popular games and make those developers proficient at writing Metal , what is your idea to make Mac a viable gaming platform , and “it can’t be done” is a cop out ! Ppl said Apple can’t build a competitive cpu to the infamous x86 duopoly , so I do believe they can make things happen with a good plan.
 
  • Like
Reactions: veena3
Everyone's insights are appreciated!!!

So far we haven't seen an Apple product with the graphics processing power needed. Without a very much larger APU chip or a large discrete GPU (my knowledge/experience in chip manufacture doesn't go very deep) it may not be possible to drive VR with Apple Silicon.

Those of you with experience probably have a better idea of how this might play out and I hope you chime in.
 
I think you under-estimate the work apple is doing with AI/ML on their portable devices which will be useful for things like real world object recognition - when paired with the advanced sensors on their devices such as LIDAR, stereoscopic cameras, etc.

There's a LOT of stuff Apple is doing piece-meal on seemingly unrelated products that I'm sure people do not realise are all applicable to AR/VR products in the pipe.
I think when Apple releases their Quest competitor, it will be like the iPad was. Decent enough tech at a price that’s hard to believe for the performance. Just looking at the size and power efficiency of their chips capable of driving high resolution external monitors… those could fit in a headset with room to spare and offer excellent computing performance on-device.
 
  • Like
Reactions: throAU
I disagree , your notion that developers will just start writing games for metal without an additional incentive in today landscape is far fetched
Your “far fetched” is pretty much “how business normally works”. Look at iOS for example. Apple didn’t pay anyone to make games for it, they saw this ENORMOUS market with customers, credit cards ALREADY in the system, and they took the chance to do it. As a result, the iOS gaming market is large and continuing to grow.

getting those developers incentives to port their big games will also make them familiar with the platform and API’s , you will kill 2 birds with 1 stone
How? You have a developer that doesn’t see making a profit on making games for Mac unless Apple’s paying them. So, once they finish the game, they just wait for another check from Apple to make another one? And another check for the next one? That’s not a smart use of Apple’s dollars.

You could have EVERY developer on the face of the planet to have wizard-like abilities with Apple’s API’s and Apple Silicon, but if there’s no publisher that can see making a profit from selling games on the Mac, none are going to be made.

get the most popular games and make those developers proficient at writing Metal , what is your idea to make Mac a viable gaming platform
Apple selling absolutely massive numbers of Macs would be the best way to make the Mac a viable gaming platform.
 
How? You have a developer that doesn’t see making a profit on making games for Mac unless Apple’s paying them. So, once they finish the game, they just wait for another check from Apple to make another one? And another check for the next one? That’s not a smart use of Apple’s dollars.

That more of less is how Apple Arcade functions - Apple pays developers to make games for them, and it’s usually a better deal for the developers than trying to fund development on their own, and then monetise it after it’s done. It gives them a stable, predictable cashflow.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.