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Swiss Federal Railways Says Apple Copied Its Iconic Railway Clock

Oh dear. I guess in order to really have a true case one would have to say that the use of the "image" would cause some association, right? I associate the icon with nothing more than a clock. It never occurred to me that there was a clock like that out there.
 
Jimrod said:
Are you replying to anyone in particular because I haven't seen many people defending Apple in this thread, it's a mistake on their part to copy a copywritten design. Seems to me you're just here to troll and use your fanboy comments with no real basis.
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I think to the contrary it goes to show there are actually no Apple fanboys. There are people who appreciate good things - they like these things because they're good, not because there's an Apple logo on them. And these same people also call a spade a spade and the iOS6 iPad clock face a clear rip off of one of the most iconic clock faces in the world.

Now what to do?

Ive could probably design an even better clock face, if you put him to the task...

Apple would have to get a license for this clock face - I imagine they'd much rather just use their design from the iPhone instead. It's fine, too.
 
MGCP said:
I have no idea why you are talking about patents - that's completely the wrong branch of IP law (they are there to protect inventions, we are not talking about the an invention).
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Let's get our terms right.

Copyright is about ownership of intellectual property and how it may be distributed or reproduced. This will be very difficult to enforce because SBB needs to prove in court THEIR design is in use to begin with. SBB widely licenses the design, has for years, and Apple can easily claim public domain. But they won't admit to copying anything, of course.

Trademark is about protection of names, slogans and symbols and is not in play here as the Apple clock bears none of that in its design.

Patent in this case is called as "design patent" and refers exclusively to the ornamental design of a functional item.

I could not find a design patent in the Swiss patent database, they only have a trademark and as I noted before - good luck suing on that front.

I mentioned the patent aspect previously assuming SSB had filed a design patent which is common for mechanical devices within industry. But even then, I pointed out the differences from an ornamental point of view which is how you argue such cases in court -- if it ever gets that far.

Apple is a cash cow and the SBB may use this opportunity to simple squeeze money in a settlement or seek PR.
 
SrWebDeveloper said:
Let's get our terms right. [...]
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I think we are talking at cross purposes as "design patent" seems to be a US specific term. In Europe "patents" refer specfically to the protection of an "inventive step" and would have no relevance here. What you call a design patent would be a design right, which could then be either registered or unregistered.

You mention trademarks but it isn't clear whether you are saying that the image of the clock face is itself a registered trademark of the SFR. If it were a registered trademark that would be a clear line of attack for them. If it isn't a registered TM then the tort of passing off is their best bet (not least because the entire population of Switzerland would see this app and automatically assume that it was connected to their national railway!)
 
Apple Loses: Under copyright

According to the booklet included with the official Swiss Railway watch "Swiss engineer and designer Hans Hifiker (1901-1993) created the classic timepiece that is protected by copyright in 1944 while an employee of the SBB (Swiss Federal Railways)"

Substitute Jonathan Ives and employee of Apple just for fun
 
Morronic

The copyright was taken out in 1944 so the only thing the swiss Can argue is that they have the registered trademark (ie their logo) that Apple does not copy..

Copyright lasts 50 years so the copyright on that design have expired 8 years ago... Anyone can use it as long as they dont put the swiss railroad logo on it.

Trail dismissed

From wikipedia

Die Schweizer Bahnhofsuhr wurde 1944 vom Schweizer Ingenieur und Gestalter Hans Hilfiker für die Schweizerischen Bundesbahnen (SBB) entworfen.

The Swiss Railway Watch was designed in 1944 by Swiss engineer and designer Hans Hilfiker for the Swiss Federal Railways (SBB).

http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Bahnhofsuhr
 
Jaemon said:
The copyright was taken out in 1944 so the only thing the swiss Can argue is that they have the registered trademark (ie their logo) that Apple does not copy..

Copyright lasts 50 years so the copyright on that design have expired 8 years ago... Anyone can use it as long as they dont put the swiss railroad logo on it.

Trail dismissed

From wikipedia

Die Schweizer Bahnhofsuhr wurde 1944 vom Schweizer Ingenieur und Gestalter Hans Hilfiker für die Schweizerischen Bundesbahnen (SBB) entworfen.

The Swiss Railway Watch was designed in 1944 by Swiss engineer and designer Hans Hilfiker for the Swiss Federal Railways (SBB).

http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Bahnhofsuhr
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Assuming that this is protected as an artistic work then copyright in the EU last for 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the "author" of the work died.
 
Limited Liability

Actually, Apple is in violation only if you catch it at the right time twice a day. That sword could cut two ways. It could make it harder to "catch" them or it could add two new transgression every days.
 
Only if Apple's clock can stretch like "rubberband" (US patent) and it bounces back, there will not be any legal problem.
 
iLunar said:
:rolleyes: So tired of these bogus arguments. This isn't the first time Apple's been sued by another designer from a different industry. It won't be the last.

Just admit that Samsung deliberately stole and then profited in the EXACT SAME industry. It's a completely different situation. Do you honestly think Apple will make billions of dollars from putting a clock on the iPad?

If Apple doesn't pay a licensing fee and/or changes the clock image, you may have a very small, mediocre point. Otherwise, you're just engaging in a flame war.

This situation is in no way shape or form even remotely comparable to the blatant copying Samsung did.
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I made no comment about Samsung in any way, shape, or form. It had absolutely nothing to do with my argument. I have no comment to make about Samsung.

You want to talk about copying? Let's talk about Xerox's GUI interface that Apple *and* Microsoft stole.
 
theineffablebob said:
Tim Cook's Apple!

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You can patent crazy stuff.

Apple got design patents of the iPad's rectangular shape with a screen in the front and the Macbook Air's wedge shape.
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It might be Karma at work.
Apple complained about the rectangle. Now they're being complained for a circle with embedded rectangles.
 
dpruitt said:
Apple.. just buy Switzerland, and this crummy railroad company and burn them to the ground. Railroad, really? Isn't it 2012?
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What has the year has to do with it? Railroads in Switzerland are amongst the most modern ones in the whole wide world. You clearly have no idea of what the railroads in Switzerland look like or how they work. Or what they stand for.
But of course, as a car driving, air polluting, ignorant American, how would you.

So much for clichés.
 
It's actually not the same.

Apple's 5-minute rectangles are thicker than the Swiss clock and the minute markers are thinner. Apple's minute and hour hands are the same thickness as each other, but in the swiss clock, the hour hand is thicker. And Apple's hour hand is not as long as in the Swiss version. The one- and five-minute rectangles are also closer to the edge in Apple's version.

And I bet Apple can find either prior art or tons of other instances of a sweep hand with that circle on the end.

Most of these elements are generic to clocks and watches anyway. I think if this goes to court, Apple can come up with enough items that are different that they can win the case. Having said that, while I think Apple is correct overall in their suit with Samsung, I did not like their attempts to claim patent over rectangles with rounded corners. So they reap what they sow.

But I bet they either pay the Swiss a very small license fee or they simply change their app clock a bit.

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Konrad9 said:
You want to talk about copying? Let's talk about Xerox's GUI interface that Apple *and* Microsoft stole.
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Apple did not steal Xerox's GUI interface. They licensed it for $1 million. Perfectly legitimate. And Windows 3 did not steal from Xerox as it was so horrible as to be totally different. Once they got to Windows 95, they were stealing from Apple, not from Xerox, although one can also make the case that the IDEA of a GUI is not patentable or copyrightable - only the specific implementation of the GUI. And Apple lost the lawsuit against Microsoft anyway. And both Apple and Microsoft did not copy Xerox's GUI exactly.
 
MGCP said:
I think we are talking at cross purposes as "design patent" seems to be a US specific term. In Europe "patents" refer specfically to the protection of an "inventive step" and would have no relevance here. What you call a design patent would be a design right, which could then be either registered or unregistered.

You mention trademarks but it isn't clear whether you are saying that the image of the clock face is itself a registered trademark of the SFR. If it were a registered trademark that would be a clear line of attack for them. If it isn't a registered TM then the tort of passing off is their best bet (not least because the entire population of Switzerland would see this app and automatically assume that it was connected to their national railway!)
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From the Swiss Federal Institute of Intellectual property page on patents:

Aesthetic forms are not patentable, however, they can be protected as a design. A patent protects the technical method. In contrast, an industrial model protects only the aesthetic effect of an invention. The so-called 'utility model' is not recognized in Switzerland.
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This explains why I correctly noted SBB does not have a [utility] patent on their mechanical clock. As to the clock face (aesthetic form), "protected as a design" refers to this text found on the same page:

...an "ornamental design" which falls under the category of "designs" in Switzerland...
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Facts to support what I said and why, same verbiage, even though this is not US patent law.

https://www.ige.ch/en/service/frequently-asked-questions/patents.html

I don't consider an overall design (clock face) to be a name, slogan or symbol which is the verbiage most commonly associated with a trademark in any country. This is my interpretation and I respect that you may view this differently. This is getting pretty boring in these technicalities, which only makes it all the more sillier, don't you agree? But thanks for replying, it's been fun during the exchange.

Moving on.

-jim
 
Nip this in the bud Apple. Pay the licensing fee and put this behind you. Whatever Mondaine paid I'm sure Apple can afford.
 
Virtualball said:
There's really no dispute here, but c'mon, a clock face? Are we going to start accusing Maxis of copying Sherwin-Williams' wallpaper because there's a similar shade of blue in the Sims? :rolleyes:
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Apple wouldn't hesitate to sue in a heartbeat if the situation was reversed, so I feel no empathy for Apple what-so-ever. They are the king of the evil software patents and related lawsuits and so rightly deserve to have their arse sued off for any copyright or patent violation imaginable, IMO.
 
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