Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I think the argument is, and correct me if I’m wrong @BillyJoeJimBob, but if a base 2012 Mac Mini can run 2024’s macOS Sequoia (12-year gap to hardware) with ease, then even a “base” Mac Pro 7,1 with a couple discrete GPUs with minimum 8GB VRAM should be able to handle macOS Tahoe (6-year gap to hardware) with ease…. unless of course Apple is purposely tanking the performance, or more likely, just doesn’t care enough to optimize Tahoe for Intel.

There’s nothing in Tahoe that should slow down the Intel systems Mac Pro or MBP with +64GB RAM, dedicated GPUs and +8GB VRAM, the eye candy needs to be optimized at minimum. macOS for Intel already lacks a dozen or so AS-only features, and none of the AI integration.

One could make the case for planned obsolescence on Apple’s part considering the poor year-over-year performance of macOS on a system that currently runs last year’s macOS like a champ (and no, Sequoia to Tahoe is not equivalent to Win95 to WinXP), but the more likely reason is Apple just doesn’t care and Tahoe simply fulfills a legal obligation.
What’s even more proof apple is fully into “planned obsolescence” is that the 2012 Mac Mini runs just fine with macOS Sequoia BUT ONLY if you patch it yourself.

Apple doesn’t want you to do that. Apple wanted you to trash that Mac Mini after Catalina instead and buy a then new Mac mini 2018. And trash that one again today 😂

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not an apple hater. But one must admit, they’re playing that planned obsolescence game like pros.
 
  • Like
Reactions: andrewv69
but the more likely reason is Apple just doesn’t care and Tahoe simply fulfills a legal obligation.
Apple doesn't care if a Mac slows down because of a newer OS version or update. They'll be happy to sell you "this is our best Mac ever and we know you're going to love it".

The good thing about a situation like this is that you can drop down to a previous release but Apple has once again have gotten sneaky over the years. Once upon a time not to long ago in a far away galaxy. You could launch the App Store app and see all the different OS versions you installed on your computer. A mere click would download that version of OS. Today, you have to jump thru more hoops if you are on the latest version.

This is why I am keeping my iPhone 13 on iOS 18 because I tried iOS 26 and the performance wasn't all that great. Then, factor in that the iPhone 13 only has 4GB of RAM and that does not bode well for the future. But i'm sure Apple would be happy to sell me: "this is our best iPhone ever and we know you're going to love it".

I got hip to their game long, long ago. I only buy the cheapest Mac which is the base model Mini on their Edu store during tax free holidays and if I time it right I can snag a $100 gift card on the purchase.

I find I cry a lot less when my Mac turns to mud. Also, the AS Macs don't fully support Linux unlike Intel Macs. My 2012 Mini is on the latest version of Ubuntu and it does all the things I need it to.
 
  • Like
Reactions: conmee
What’s even more proof apple is fully into “planned obsolescence” is that the 2012 Mac Mini runs just fine with macOS Sequoia BUT ONLY if you patch it yourself.
The base model came with 4GB and a (5400RPM) HDD. I run Sonoma on a MacBook Air 2013 (8GB), it runs but is certainly not a good experience.
 
It was the same thing with leopard. It was so bad they had to release Snow Leopard as a concession, but of course, they used that as a pretense for jettisoning PPC support. I've heard they had early betas of SL that still ran on PPC, but the decision came down to financials.
 
I'm not worried about buying a Mac Studio M5 Ultra Max BlingBling Maximum top spec, can easily afford it, the point of it is that they literally nuked perfectly good hardware by a single OS update.

Also it took until late 2021 for M1 to get the Max/Ultra version for actual work, and even then, perf was close to the 7,1 mid-top spec. The M1/announcement that came out in 2020 was a toy for real work.

Is it that hard to understand the point of this thread?
No, I don't understand. 2019 to 2025 is 6 years, 1994 to 2000 was 6 years. Did you run Windows 2000 on your 386/486 in the year 2000?
Go ahead and buy the Mac Studio, in 6 years you will be here again complaining why the Mac Studio after 6 years doesn't work well on the then latest OS.
 
  • Like
Reactions: throAU
By 2022 those 2019 Mac Pros had already been hugely devalued on the used market. People just didn’t want them anymore. And one YouTuber posted that Apple only offered about US$5000 trade-in value for a US$40000 machine, IIRC.

It seemed to me that in 2022 it was foolish to buy any Intel Mac unless it was absolutely necessary for specific workflow / software compatibility reasons. However, in those scenarios, macOS version upgrades would usually be much lower on the list of priorities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Timpetus
By 2022 those 2019 Mac Pros had already been hugely devalued on the used market. People just didn’t want them anymore. And one YouTuber posted that Apple only offered about US$5000 trade-in value for a US$40000 machine, IIRC.

It seemed to me that in 2022 it was foolish to buy any Intel Mac unless it was absolutely necessary for specific workflow / software compatibility reasons. However, in those scenarios, macOS version upgrades would usually be much lower on the list of priorities.

Well, usually how it goes with Macs especially.

But the overall point was that 1 OS update completely dropped the performance by 40-60% from the previous release.

If my prayers are answered, maybe by .4 or .5 it will get better. Who knows. Sequoia was really nice already.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: aaronage
Well, usually how it goes with Macs especially.
Nah, this was a completely different scenario. As discussed, this was a switch from one architecture to a completely different architecture. It was expected by just about everyone that Intel Macs would play second fiddle to Apple Silicon going forward. In that way it was planned obsolescence, but Apple essentially told us that plan right from the get go, which is why the worth of those Macs tanked so steeply and so quickly. However, as others have said, it wasn't that Apple was intentionally going out of its way to cripple the Intel Macs, but it's not incompetence either as some others have claimed. It's neither. It's mainly that Apple did not want to invest much more resources to support a dead end architecture.
 
It was the same thing with leopard. It was so bad they had to release Snow Leopard as a concession, but of course, they used that as a pretense for jettisoning PPC support. I've heard they had early betas of SL that still ran on PPC, but the decision came down to financials.
Ahhh memories. I remember when my G5 was running pretty bad on .0 in Leopard. It did get better later on, but of course by then the 2006 MP came out with Intel and Snow Leopard was a thing and I had already ordered that one :D
 
Nah, this was a completely different scenario. As discussed, this was a switch from one architecture to a completely different architecture. It was expected by just about everyone that Intel Macs would play second fiddle to Apple Silicon going forward. In that way it was planned obsolescence, but Apple told us the plans right from the get go, which is why the worth of those Macs tanked so steeply and so quickly. However, as others have said, it wasn't that Apple was intentionally going out of its way to cripple the Intel Macs, but it's not incompetence either as some others have claimed. It's neither. It's mainly that Apple did not want to invest much more resources to support a dead end architecture.

I think at the end of the day, "ignoring" Intel support performance improvements in Tahoe, since it's still officially supported, is akin to "planned obsolescence". But it is designed in such a way that they are indirectly doing it, and not intentionally. It's just part of business. They can easily put some resources to make Tahoe at least feel like Sequoia before killing off Intel support one last time. Its a 4 trillion dollar company. I have sent multiple Feedbacks to them and even emailed Tim, I hope they hear us (and to be honest, I have gotten emails back from Apple in the past regarding complaints).

Because to me, 28c Intel/192GB 2933Mhz/4TB SSD/6900XT (23 TFLOPS of perf) is no slouch. If it was maybe an i7 laptop with an iGPU, sure, I would agree and say it's time to upgrade. But to cripple it on the last release of the supported OS just looks suspect to me. o_O
 
  • Like
Reactions: aespana
This is overall for everybody...if you all have a few minutes please fire up the Feedback app and send complaints regarding the last few Intel versions and how bad they run on Tahoe. Point out specific issues you're having. It's best to send Feedback from your Mac Pro (or whatever Intel you're on that's supported on Tahoe) because it collects diagnostics info.

If you want to go the extra mile, also email tcook@apple.com directly, I have in the past gotten responses back even from Steve's email (when he was alive).

I think it will take all of us to make some noise for Apple to actually do something, because I really think we are stronger together.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Schismz and avro707
I think at the end of the day, "ignoring" Intel support performance improvements in Tahoe, since it's still officially supported, is akin to "planned obsolescence". But it is designed in such a way that they are indirectly doing it, and not intentionally. It's just part of business. They can easily put some resources to make Tahoe at least feel like Sequoia before killing off Intel support one last time. Its a 4 trillion dollar company. I have sent multiple Feedbacks to them and even emailed Tim, I hope they hear us (and to be honest, I have gotten emails back from Apple in the past regarding complaints).

Because to me, 28c Intel/192GB 2933Mhz/4TB SSD/6900XT (23 TFLOPS of perf) is no slouch. If it was maybe an i7 laptop with an iGPU, sure, I would agree and say it's time to upgrade. But to cripple it on the last release of the supported OS just looks suspect to me. o_O
That post suggests you may have purchased in 2022 in part based on paper specs, not on the expectation of the evolution of macOS going forward in the face of an officially announced architecture switch years prior.
 
That post suggests you may have purchased in 2022 in part based on paper specs, not on the expectation of the evolution of macOS going forward in the face of an officially announced architecture switch years prior.

I mean I expected Apple to drop Intel support and already have been through the PPC > Intel transition before, so I was aware that a few years after 2022, Apple will remove Intel support.

But yes, I did buy it based on paper specs. But even by 2022, there wasn't a good alternative to a desktop, and the higher end Mac Studio's (that I would've liked to own) weren't out yet.

To me, one Mac Studio that's worth owning is the eventual M5 Max/Ultra (leaning on Ultra) when it's out. Thankfully I am on a NAS via 10GbE and I don't use PCIe cards that much for pro gear (I feel bad for others that do) so it'll be an easier transition for me.
 
me, one Mac Studio that's worth owning is the eventual M5 Max/Ultra (leaning on Ultra) when it's out.
We don’t even know if they will build it. Maybe they will just make everyone subscribe for cloud computing power and use a less powerful local machine.

Anyhow, put 26.3 on the dial W6800X Duo machine, it’s not any worse than 26.2.

The other one is still on 26.2 as I just didn’t have time to upgrade it.
 
I think at the end of the day, "ignoring" Intel support performance improvements in Tahoe, since it's still officially supported, is akin to "planned obsolescence".

This.

We're not on a thread about Catalina being slow on a 5,1 when using a modded install, or OpenCore, we're talking about an officially supported OS version, for hardware on which Apple still provides warranty coverage - the original purchase warranties are still in effect, not just re-enrolled AppleCare, and there is no defensible reason for it to be any less optimised than the OS version for Apple Silicon.

That's a cost for Apple, and means they have to carry on working at the Intel code base for more years than they'd like to. Cry me a freaking river. They sold a product, and they have obligations under law to that product. Hell, they're required by law in some jurisdictions to sell spare parts for 7 years minimum after a product is discontinued. Try buying an MPX card, or SSD from them. They can't replace them with lower performance versions and say "sorry, we optimised for newer machines".

Individual new features not being present in new OSes, because they require a hardware feature not present on the old machine, fair enough, but the actual features and functions the machine had before becoming worse / slower, no, that's just a breach of basic consumer obligations, and they HAVE been prosecuted in various jurisdictions for doing just that with iPhones and iOS.

Apple sold the machine for full price, right up until the day it was discontinued, it wasn't a marked-down, expect a shorter lifespan discount special (you'll be shocked at how "you should have known better" doesn't stand up in the eyes of consumer law agencies in civilised societies). They were publicly stating they were going to have a long continued support for Intel products, and "plenty" Intel products still to come. The 7,1 should receive the exact same support, and optimisation lifespan as any other comparable Apple machine.

Now, if the M2 Mac Pro loses new OS support, and goes into 3 years security updates only 18 months after it's discontinued...
 
apple announced the transition from Intel to apple silicon on November 11, 2020.

this high spec machine in question was launched 2019.

if i was the one who had bought this machine for USD 25,000 and was in possession of it before the announcement, during these 6 or 7 years that i knew this day would be coming, i would be upset. but not righteously upset. i had 6 years to plan to buy a modern machine.

if i had bought this any time after the nov 11 2020 announcement, i would not be upset. it would have been foolish to purchase the machine in the first place if my upgrade cycle was anything longer than 3 years.

if i was the original poster, at this point, i would lease a machine until the next Mac Studio is released, and then buy the new Mac Studio.
What you don't understand is that cMP users were led to believe that the 7,1 would be as rock solid as the previous models and so far are still running the latest MacOS. I still run my 4,1 flashed to 5,1 with Monterey almost daily. It has been flawless for years without a single issue. They were powerhouses then and they still are today, I can show my electric bill. What other machine can boast 17 years of rock solid performance? Well, except for my 25 year old Frigidaire still chugging away in my basement. I think a lot of 7,1 buyers had high expectations as I certainly did, that it would perform for many years regardless of the M-series push soon after. The 7,1 is truly a work of art that was all but destroyed by greedy Apple CEOs. If you're of the Apple can do no wrong crowd, I got news for you, they are driven by greed just like every other company and are slaves to the shareholders and the ultra wealthy. Planned obsolescence is the business model of capitalism. The M-series machines are an example and a product of it. They are not upgradeable and are integrated so they're not repairable either. If the GPU or the CPU fails, you can't just swap them out with a new one, you have to buy a whole new machine from Apple. That is by definition, planned obsolescence.
 
I have a $16,000 2019 Mac Pro that I use for research and it runs fine on Tahoe. There are some bugs here and there and some of the visual elements are questionable but overall I don’t mind it and I haven’t had any issues or lag with it.

So I’m not sure what’s wrong with OP’s even higher specced machine but mine works fine.

My 2019 MacBook Pro on the other hand, I can’t wait to sell or trade in. I hate that machine so much. Even before Tahoe. I only held on to it because I have some x86 software that doesn’t work on ARM and with the rumors of the OLED MacBook Pro next year, I might just wait until then and get rid of this jet engine.
 
What you don't understand is that cMP users were led to believe that the 7,1 would be as rock solid as the previous models and so far are still running the latest MacOS. I still run my 4,1 flashed to 5,1 with Monterey almost daily. It has been flawless for years without a single issue. They were powerhouses then and they still are today, I can show my electric bill. What other machine can boast 17 years of rock solid performance? Well, except for my 25 year old Frigidaire still chugging away in my basement. I think a lot of 7,1 buyers had high expectations as I certainly did, that it would perform for many years regardless of the M-series push soon after. The 7,1 is truly a work of art that was all but destroyed by greedy Apple CEOs. If you're of the Apple can do no wrong crowd, I got news for you, they are driven by greed just like every other company and are slaves to the shareholders and the ultra wealthy. Planned obsolescence is the business model of capitalism. The M-series machines are an example and a product of it. They are not upgradeable and are integrated so they're not repairable either. If the GPU or the CPU fails, you can't just swap them out with a new one, you have to buy a whole new machine from Apple. That is by definition, planned obsolescence.
hi
appreciate the explanation of why you think shareholders and the board are corrupt.
but one point, if you could, pls clarify:
"...that it would perform for many years regardless of the M-series push soon after. "
it lasted 6 or 7 years.
can you pls let us know just how long you think it should have lasted?
10? 20? or do want you want to insist on "forever" ?
a close reading of the people complaining in this thread seems to indicate that they are suffering not just from the apple decision by itself not to continue support, but with the additional complicating factor of it coming at time in their lives and/or business lives where they can't justify the purchase of a newer machine.
if the latter is the case, then i most heartily sympathize with you.
cold, hard business cycles do have real world consequences on people.
 
hi
appreciate the explanation of why you think shareholders and the board are corrupt.
but one point, if you could, pls clarify:
"...that it would perform for many years regardless of the M-series push soon after. "
it lasted 6 or 7 years.
can you pls let us know just how long you think it should have lasted?
10? 20? or do want you want to insist on "forever" ?
a close reading of the people complaining in this thread seems to indicate that they are suffering not just from the apple decision by itself not to continue support, but with the additional complicating factor of it coming at time in their lives and/or business lives where they can't justify the purchase of a newer machine.
if the latter is the case, then i most heartily sympathize with you.
cold, hard business cycles do have real world consequences on people.
The hardware in these machines will last many more years just as the cMPs did and do, but that's a poor business model for a profit driven business. Yes, I'm saying 10 or 20 years or a least until the hardware starts failing. If the software in my car's head-unit fails, I shouldn't have to buy a whole new car because the car has no replaceable parts. I'm just glad my trusty old Frigidaire doesn't have a circuit-board or any software installed. And yes the average consumer cannot plop down $4000.00+ every 3 to 5 years because of planned obsolescence especially in this economy.

EDIT: I was wrong, my trusty old Frigidaire is 40+ years old. I forgot I sold the newer one because I had to replace the circuit-board in it. Hah, go figure.
 
Last edited:
Nah, this was a completely different scenario. As discussed, this was a switch from one architecture to a completely different architecture. It was expected by just about everyone that Intel Macs would play second fiddle to Apple Silicon going forward. In that way it was planned obsolescence, but Apple essentially told us that plan right from the get go, which is why the worth of those Macs tanked so steeply and so quickly. However, as others have said, it wasn't that Apple was intentionally going out of its way to cripple the Intel Macs, but it's not incompetence either as some others have claimed. It's neither. It's mainly that Apple did not want to invest much more resources to support a dead end architecture.
Ironically enough if you cruise ebay and you loaded up the Mac Pro with 384mb-768mb+ RAM, they're starting to reach the same prices they cost when new. 768mb RAM MP 28core is going for $8-$11K and rising by the week. Wait another 6 months and if DDR5 RAM (which seems to include DDR4 RAM in MP), continues increasing ... they're gonna be worth more than you paid for them brand new. Welcome to upside down world. Haven't even touched upon PCIe cards with multiple 2-8TB SSDs ;) If you really regret your purchase, well hey, it's becoming a great time to sell it and buy something else.

On another topic- with Mac Pro my own personal experience in terms of service has been excellent. You don't go to the Apple Store -- who have likely never seen a Mac Pro, and are unaware it even exists, much less have anybody present who can service it even if sent the parts -- you have a tech show up at your office or home, or drop it off at an Apple certified tech (who is usually a co that works on enterprise servers), and... they do a really great job diagnosing and fixing your issue very rapidly. Just my experience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dolphins1972
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.