Target Begins Apple Pay Rollout at Select Locations

Rigby

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2008
5,139
4,877
San Jose, CA
That's another couple of Internet myths. Merchants don't pay ANYTHING for Apple Pay. Apple charges the banks/credit card companies generally .015% or 15 cents on a hundred dollar transaction, which is more than made up by almost zero fraud.
True, but Target has no doubt negotiated a discounted card processing fee with the issuer of their store card, so the Apple fee will probably hurt them more than with regular cards.
Bigger misunderstanding is that roll out is not privacy related. When you use Apple Pay an encrypted, one time use, token is sent from your phone directly to your bank instructing them to pay the merchant the amount on the reader. The merchant never gets any of your information from that transaction. That's why when a merchant's system gets compromised, you information doesn't go with the hack.
The token (virtual card number or DAN) is actually not a one-time number but stays constant (you can see the last 4 digits in the Wallet app). Only the additional security code changes for every transaction. This means Apple Pay transactions can actually be tracked and tied to a card across transactions. What's missing is the mapping of the card to a person (Apple Pay does not transmit the name or other identifying information to the merchant terminal like physical cards do). But given that Target closely cooperates with the bank that issues their store cards, I'm sure the bank will be happy to map the DAN to a customer ID for Target. So no, using the Red Card in Apple Pay will not improve customer privacy.
 

lkrupp

macrumors 65816
Jul 24, 2004
1,027
1,534
Agreed. Headlines like this - while useful - are indicative of an underlying silliness here in the US. This isn't really an "Apple Pay" rollout. It's nothing more than enabling a hardware feature that is built in to virtually every payment machine. It's ridiculous that retailers even have the option of disabling features such as NFC and chip-readers. Yes, I understand that some systems don't support it, but that is just another lame-butt symptom, not the underlying problem.
You say this but do you know that enabling NFC in the hardware that already exist increases cost to the merchant. I have a dear friend that ran an independent pharmacy. He told me that to turn on NFC would cost him an additional 2% in processing fees.
 

ecschwarz

macrumors 65816
Jun 28, 2010
1,303
254
No, not quite yet. The system has to take both NFC and bet set up to accept contactless payments and Apple Pay. Home Depot for example, has NFC readers, but has turned off acceptance of Apple Pay and others, and of course Walmarts and some others.
Home Depot ran into some issues with some Mastercards on Apple Pay and rather than fix the issue, turned it off (I suspect it was the magstripe emulation/EMV contactless thing). At the one near me, contactless cards don't work either, so I suspect they've disabled NFC entirely (same with Walmart).
 

nsayer

macrumors 6502a
Jan 23, 2003
996
481
Silicon Valley
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how "___ is rolling out Apple Pay" is the correct headline. I always understood that all a merchant had to do was support NFC and Apple Pay would Just Work(tm).
[doublepost=1549299218][/doublepost]
[And, about "privacy", LOL!. Definitely there are deep secrets to unveil the purchases of over-the-counter shampoos and personal care, and household cleaners.]
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmi...-pregnant-before-her-father-did/#38bddca16668
 
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ksec

macrumors 65816
Dec 23, 2015
1,269
1,266
That's another couple of Internet myths. Merchants don't pay ANYTHING for Apple Pay. Apple charges the banks/credit card companies generally .015% or 15 cents on a hundred dollar transaction, which is more than made up by almost zero fraud. Bigger misunderstanding is that roll out is not privacy related. When you use Apple Pay an encrypted, one time use, token is sent from your phone directly to your bank instructing them to pay the merchant the amount on the reader. The merchant never gets any of your information from that transaction. That's why when a merchant's system gets compromised, you information doesn't go with the hack.
1. Where did I said Merchants paying, In the reply I was quoting and referring to Red Card, which is the Target Branded Credit Card. The Card Issuers will likely pass on any cost to Target, The 10 base point is actually 0.1%. Not 0.015%.

2. The merchants get no data from Apple Pay, but the card issuers do.
 
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tmiw

macrumors 68020
Jun 26, 2007
2,182
487
San Diego, CA
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how "___ is rolling out Apple Pay" is the correct headline. I always understood that all a merchant had to do was support NFC and Apple Pay would Just Work(tm).
In a country where Apple Pay was effectively the first contactless product most people have had experience with, I'd say so.
 
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mattster16

macrumors 6502a
Apr 18, 2004
707
358
True, but Target has no doubt negotiated a discounted card processing fee with the issuer of their store card, so the Apple fee will probably hurt them more than with regular cards.
For the non credit card red card it is actually just linked to your checking account. Using the card simply authorizes an e-check transaction. I don't know how this all works, but it is possible the processing fee is extremely small or non-existent for this type of transaction.
 

cub850G2

macrumors regular
Nov 15, 2014
242
23
NE
Although it doesn't display the screen above, Apple Pay is enabled at my local store in Long Beach CA as well.
Well that picture is the final screen and many Targets currently as of two days ago show only the dots at the top and those dots will most likely go away once they roll out that updated theme to all stores.
 

BuffaloTF

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2008
964
850
No, even "chip+pin" isn't a thing. Most places still swipe the card. In 2019.
One of the reason credit card fraud such a big problem in that country. If you use technology of the 80s... well... then you get security of the 80s.
But the banking system in the US is generally a joke... most banks aren't even connected to SWIFT network, if you want to transfer money there you have to go over an "intermediate" bank to forward the money.
We have the most credit card fraud because we have the most credit card usage in the world. Which is why Windows has the most computer fraud in the world. It has literally zero to do with a lack of security.

And I don't know where you get your rant on SWIFT. As is the case the world over, regional banks don't have a presence. Domestic National Banks do. And international banks are on the board. So yeah, a small bank holds an account at a larger bank -- that's what an intermediary is -- and the payment goes through them on-behalf-of the beneficiary. And it works that way worldwide. Oh, and Chinese banks don't have a SWIFT presence whatsoever because all RMB payments require simplified Mandarin to be used so they have their own system (only international banks that are present in China on SWIFT are the ones that trade in USD, EUR, GBP, HKD, etc)... and SWIFT only supports "Latin" characters of A-Z (upper and lower case), 0-9 and / - ? : ( ) . , ' + .......

SWIFT is losing its hold, and SWIFT MT messages are being replaced by ISO 20022 files and APIs, so they've become merely a delivery channel with FileAct.
 

MisterSavage

macrumors 68020
Nov 10, 2018
2,215
2,062
Every time I go to USA and I realize I need to give my credit card to the waiter in restaurants and I have to write down my tip...with a pen...on the bill. Wow. It feels like 1995.
It was only last year that we finally got the official announcement that signatures aren't required for credit card purchases at stores in the US (although I still go to plenty of places that ask for it). What a completely useless exercise writing my "signature" on a receipt was. The only restaurant I've been to recently that I can think of where I could digitally specify the tip amount was Chili's.
 

parseckadet

macrumors 65816
Dec 13, 2010
1,142
660
Denver, CO
I’m thinking that NFC payment popularity depends on your location. I live in the Midwest near St. Louis. In my personal experience I have never seen anyone (besides myself) use NFC while standing in a checkout lane. Furthermore, when I use Apple Pay at a merchant that accepts it the clerks still act surprised, as if it’s something new. Cash and Credit Cards appear to be the overwhelming norm in my neck of the woods. Could be another example of how tech oriented people live in a different world than the general population.
I go to the same PetCo every two or three weeks and use ApplePay every time. I've been doing this for two years at this particular location, and yet every time the clerk is shocked and amazed. Even when it's the same clerk I've done this with before.
[And, about "privacy", LOL!. Definitely there are deep secrets to unveil the purchases of over-the-counter shampoos and personal care, and household cleaners.]
Someone else linked this article already, but several years ago Target effectively outed a teenage girl as being pregnant to her parents. Through tracking her purchases they determined that she was pregnant and started sending her coupons for all kinds of baby stuff, like diapers.
Has the US not adopted contactless payments yet in all places?

It just feels so backwards compared to the rest of the world!

(Basically, where you have contactless, you have Apple Pay).
Every time one of these stories pops up all the Canadians and Europeans pop out of the woodwork acting amazed at the situation in the US. It's getting kind of old. These stories have been popping up multiple times a year since ApplePay was first introduced. We get it. Your system is better than ours. I doubt that when you guys first got tap to pay that it rolled out over night. Please stop acting amazed that it's not happening over night here.
about time!!! this is great! now do lowe's
Don't get me started on Lowe's. At least the ones here have stickers on them saying to use chip for credit, and to swipe for debit. My card has both credit and debit, so I always have to do this dance where I insert, then it tells me to swipe, then it tells me to insert before it will finally work. And if I swipe it makes me go through the same stupid dance. I don't get why this is such and issue for them when every other retailer in the country has at least been able to implement chip & pin for debit cards (credit cards are still a different story).
 

nsayer

macrumors 6502a
Jan 23, 2003
996
481
Silicon Valley
It was only last year that we finally got the official announcement that signatures aren't required for credit card purchases at stores in the US (although I still go to plenty of places that ask for it). What a completely useless exercise writing my "signature" on a receipt was. The only restaurant I've been to recently that I can think of where I could digitally specify the tip amount was Chili's.
The signature on the receipt was never intended as a security thing. Originally (and still in some cases) the wording right above the line is "I agree to pay the above amount in accordance with my cardholder agreement" - in other words, the signature is you agreeing to pay, much like the signature on a check.

All they've done now is rewrite the agreements so that your agreement is *implied* but subject to the same dispute resolution that's been there for yeas.
 
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dontwalkhand

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2007
5,370
1,471
No, even "chip+pin" isn't a thing. Most places still swipe the card. In 2019.
One of the reason credit card fraud such a big problem in that country. If you use technology of the 80s... well... then you get security of the 80s.
But the banking system in the US is generally a joke... most banks aren't even connected to SWIFT network, if you want to transfer money there you have to go over an "intermediate" bank to forward the money.

Unfortunately, that's a common problem. Even in Europe where NFC is practically available in any store they have often no clue about payment methods. For me it's completely absurd to employ someone to work with a payment system and NOT educate them on them. I sometimes wonder if the cashiers actually know how to verify if money is fake or not.
In any case, stores that ignorant to skill requirements of their empoyees deserve to learn it the hard way.
I am in the US, rarely if ever swipe a card. Don’t know where you’re from.
 

nsayer

macrumors 6502a
Jan 23, 2003
996
481
Silicon Valley
You say this but do you know that enabling NFC in the hardware that already exist increases cost to the merchant. I have a dear friend that ran an independent pharmacy. He told me that to turn on NFC would cost him an additional 2% in processing fees.
"You're right that the sky is blue, but did you realize that looking at the sun directly can cause blindness?"
 

dontwalkhand

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2007
5,370
1,471
You say this but do you know that enabling NFC in the hardware that already exist increases cost to the merchant. I have a dear friend that ran an independent pharmacy. He told me that to turn on NFC would cost him an additional 2% in processing fees.
Who is he processing through? This sounds completely false as a person who has installed many of these things for people.
 

trip1ex

macrumors 68000
Jan 10, 2008
1,999
363
No, even "chip+pin" isn't a thing. Most places still swipe the card. In 2019.
One of the reason credit card fraud such a big problem in that country. If you use technology of the 80s... well... then you get security of the 80s.
But the banking system in the US is generally a joke... most banks aren't even connected to SWIFT network, if you want to transfer money there you have to go over an "intermediate" bank to forward the money.

Unfortunately, that's a common problem. Even in Europe where NFC is practically available in any store they have often no clue about payment methods. For me it's completely absurd to employ someone to work with a payment system and NOT educate them on them. I sometimes wonder if the cashiers actually know how to verify if money is fake or not.
In any case, stores that ignorant to skill requirements of their empoyees deserve to learn it the hard way.
You need to get out of your basement once in awhile lol.
 

rugmankc

Contributor
Sep 24, 2014
2,176
640
Actually the U.S. had wireless payments long ago (around the turn of the century), it wasn't everywhere but it was in alot of places and growing.
I must be getting really old. The only turn of the century that even registered with me was from the 1800's to 1900's. :)
 
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mwd25

macrumors regular
Sep 24, 2012
216
280
Tempe
I am in the US, rarely if ever swipe a card. Don’t know where you’re from.
Well, I live in Tempe and I am constantly going into stores where the chip reader is "broke" and Im required to swipe. In fact, since you live in Phoenix, you need only go to McKellips and Hayden, walk in and buy something. I use Apple pay at that location........and they still make me sign receipt!!!!!! I want to say, "you know, this is the whole point of Apple Pay, not sure who trained you but a signature isnt even required anymore with a credit card. Let alone Apple Pay."
QT is like one of the only places that you have a nice clean transaction with clerks that know how to use it. Walgreens as well. Now, if we can get Frys to accept it and build it into their new scan and go system I will be all set. Its sad, Im constantly ending up behind people in self checkout that are standing at the terminal, staring at it forever, with a stupid confused look on their face. Please people.....if you dont know WTF your doing, stay out of self checkout!!!!!
Thats a whole other issue.
 

notabadname

macrumors 65816
Jan 4, 2010
1,345
395
Detroit Suburbs
Great. I love when I don’t have to take my card out of my wallet, regardless of the mobile tech that permits it. But I do have a higher degree of trust for Apple’s implementation.
 

MadeTheSwitch

macrumors 6502a
Apr 20, 2009
891
15,379
Same here in WI. I will use Apple Pay and the cashier can't believe it works or is amazed at the technology. The sad thing is a lot of the cashiers do not know that Apple Pay or NFC is enabled. At one store I pulled out my X and placed it near the reader and they said that won't work. I told the cashier to hit credit and Apple Pay popped up and it worked like a charm. To me it seems that stores do not promote it nor do people know about it.
That is so true. Companies do not train their employees properly, or at all on this issue. I go to a yogurt shop called yogurtland who has their own app that you can load money on and then their scannerrs scan a barcode displayed on your phone. They do this for loyalty rewards too. The employees understand this for the royalty rewards, but are absolutely perplexed that you can pay that way too. Possibly because it stupidly takes a second scan rather then show them a balance available on their side of the register, but still, train your employees! Especially when it is your own app not a third party solution! Geez!

Since all of that they have got on board and added their card to Wallet, which the employees seem to understand a bit better but I will need more research data (i.e. yogurt) to confirm. I should try with my watch next time. That will REALLY blow their minds and confuse them...lol. :)

They still haven't adopted chip and pin... it's chip and signature. Or chip and nothing else on smaller purchases.
Strangely during Black Friday I was able to purchase THOUSANDS of dollars of appliances at JCPenny with no pin or signature. I guess they had my signature on the delivery agreement though it felt odd walking out of there having spent so much with so little verification.
 
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Small White Car

macrumors G4
Aug 29, 2006
10,906
1,186
Washington DC
I go to the same PetCo every two or three weeks and use ApplePay every time. I've been doing this for two years at this particular location, and yet every time the clerk is shocked and amazed. Even when it's the same clerk I've done this with before.
I honest-to-god haven't used Apple Pay in almost 2 years (except for vending machines) because I got sick of having to have a conversation about it with the clerk every single time.

I keep expecting it to get better (I only started using my phone for airplane tickets once I saw roughly 1/4 of other passengers doing it) but I've yet to see a single person use ANY kind of NFC payment in front of me in those entire 2 years.
 
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EricLA2NYC

macrumors newbie
Oct 21, 2011
3
1
Was in Target on Friday here in LA and thought I’d try Apple Pay, even though there was no Apple Pay sticker on their device. It worked fine. That leaves really only the Ralph’s (aka Kroger) grocery chain as the last holdout of the most frequent stores I shop at. I can use Apple Pay at Petco for my dog supplies, but not for groceries at Ralph’s. I’ve emailed feedback to them that they need to catch up with the times.
 
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Switched2aMac

macrumors member
Nov 18, 2006
76
20
Somewhere in Wisconsin
Since all of that they have got on board and added their card to Wallet, which the employees seem to understand a bit better but I will need more research data (i.e. yogurt) to confirm. I should try with my watch next time. That will REALLY blow their minds and confuse them...lol. :)

I used watch the other day and they were amazed. It was kinda funny. I usually get the response, "That's so cool."
[doublepost=1549310833][/doublepost]
That is so true. Companies do not train their employees properly, or at all on this issue. I go to a yogurt shop called yogurtland who has their own app that you can load money on and then their scannerrs scan a barcode displayed on your phone. They do this for loyalty rewards too. The employees understand this for the royalty rewards, but are absolutely perplexed that you can pay that way too. Possibly because it stupidly takes a second scan rather then show them a balance available on their side of the register, but still, train your employees! Especially when it is your own app not a third party solution! Geez!

Since all of that they have got on board and added their card to Wallet, which the employees seem to understand a bit better but I will need more research data (i.e. yogurt) to confirm. I should try with my watch next time. That will REALLY blow their minds and confuse them...lol. :)



Strangely during Black Friday I was able to purchase THOUSANDS of dollars of appliances at JCPenny with no pin or signature. I guess they had my signature on the delivery agreement though it felt odd walking out of there having spent so much with so little verification.
I used my watch the other day and the cashier was amazed, "That's so cool." Kinda funny.
 
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