Target Begins Apple Pay Rollout at Select Locations

[ecschwarz]

Who is he processing through? This sounds completely false as a person who has installed many of these things for people.

I've certainly seen some rough processor agreements, but most I've seen treat any form of payment on a particular card network the same (there are some processors where different card types cost more, but not necessarily how you use them). If that were the case, they can and should charge more for using the magstripe as a penalty and increased risk of fraud. ;-)

There's also the processors that are flat-rate and accept anything, which is great for small businesses - I had to have a long conversation with a group we set up with a Square installation (iPad, reader, etc.) that it didn't matter what kind of card it was since that "had heard stories that Amex costs more"

 

[parseckadet]

I honest-to-god haven't used Apple Pay in almost 2 years (except for vending machines) because I got sick of having to have a conversation about it with the clerk every single time.

I keep expecting it to get better (I only started using my phone for airplane tickets once I saw roughly 1/4 of other passengers doing it) but I've yet to see a single person use ANY kind of NFC payment in front of me in those entire 2 years.

I've gotten annoyed about having to have the conversation in the past, but now I just grab my stuff and mutter "Yep, pretty cool," as I'm already half way out the door. I'm starting to care less and less these days about maintaining a pleasant demeanor on the exterior while being quietly annoyed on the inside. I'm sure that means I'll be an excellent crotchety old man some day.

The other annoying one is the Panera I frequent. Apple pay doesn't on HALF of their terminals. The other half it works great. So every time you walk in it's a crap shoot on whether you'll be able to use or not.

 

[MisterSavage]

The other annoying one is the Panera I frequent. Apple pay only works on HALF of their terminals. The other half it works great. So every time you walk in it's a crap shoot on whether you'll be able to use or not.

It's the same with using Apple Wallet to scan your Panera Rewards card. Only some of the terminals can do it. It's a very weird setup. I do give Panera props for the app though. You can order ahead of time and pay with Apple Pay from the app. It's so annoying with other fast casual places that make you enter a credit card.

 

[Simmias]

Yep. Same in the UK. Pretty much every shop accepts tap payments. (We call them "contactless"), which automatically means they allow Apple Pay, Android Pay, and whatever else NFC based payment system is available. Having just got back from the US it was painful to find places that still need to use the magnetic strip on my credit card.

Even more infuriating - in my gentrified neighborhood of “tech forward” Austin, TX, fancy new stores and coffee shops open each week that do not accept NFC payments. They have brand new, expensive looking Point of Sale systems with touch screens, but no support for Apple Pay or other mobile payments. Are the payment system vendors selling them on disabling NFC or purchasing non-NFC systems so they can collect more customer data? These are young, trendy merchants with upscale shops who act like they’ve never heard of Apple Pay and you are weird for wanting to use your phone to pay.

 

[mariusignorello]

Can someone explain me why it's per store in USA while in Canada I just add my credit card and I can use it EVERYWHERE ?

Because some merchants don’t turn on the NFC module in the readers. Just about every Verifone device supports NFC payments but it’s up to the merchant or processor to support NFC.

 

[tmiw]

Even more infuriating - in my gentrified neighborhood of “tech forward” Austin, TX, fancy new stores and coffee shops open each week that do not accept NFC payments. They have brand new, expensive looking Point of Sale systems with touch screens, but no support for Apple Pay or other mobile payments. Are the payment system vendors selling them on disabling NFC or purchasing non-NFC systems so they can collect more customer data? These are young, trendy merchants with upscale shops who act like they’ve never heard of Apple Pay and you are weird for wanting to use your phone to pay.

Many of those require additional equipment for contactless. If no one's demanding it, they may not see the point of buying said hardware. Perhaps that'll change as more contactless cards start being issued.

 

[dontwalkhand]

Even more infuriating - in my gentrified neighborhood of “tech forward” Austin, TX, fancy new stores and coffee shops open each week that do not accept NFC payments. They have brand new, expensive looking Point of Sale systems with touch screens, but no support for Apple Pay or other mobile payments. Are the payment system vendors selling them on disabling NFC or purchasing non-NFC systems so they can collect more customer data? These are young, trendy merchants with upscale shops who act like they’ve never heard of Apple Pay and you are weird for wanting to use your phone to pay.

They probably take Apple Pay, they just don’t know how. Especially those iPad based systems.

Revel uses an Ingenico reader for example.
Shopkeep as well.

And so does Square with the square chip reader.

 

[MisterSavage]

They probably take Apple Pay, they just don’t know how. Especially those iPad based systems.

Revel uses an Ingenico reader for example.
Shopkeep as well.

And so does Square with the square chip reader.

Yeah the little tea shop I go to frequently had a Square terminal but they didn't take Apple Pay. The owner told me she had never gotten around to installing the little add-on device that sits on the counter that can accept Apple Pay. It ended up not being a hard thing to do and I pay with Apple Pay there now.

 

[dontwalkhand]

Well, I live in Tempe and I am constantly going into stores where the chip reader is "broke" and Im required to swipe. In fact, since you live in Phoenix, you need only go to McKellips and Hayden, walk in and buy something. I use Apple pay at that location........and they still make me sign receipt!!!!!! I want to say, "you know, this is the whole point of Apple Pay, not sure who trained you but a signature isnt even required anymore with a credit card. Let alone Apple Pay."
QT is like one of the only places that you have a nice clean transaction with clerks that know how to use it. Walgreens as well. Now, if we can get Frys to accept it and build it into their new scan and go system I will be all set. Its sad, Im constantly ending up behind people in self checkout that are standing at the terminal, staring at it forever, with a stupid confused look on their face. Please people.....if you dont know WTF your doing, stay out of self checkout!!!!!
Thats a whole other issue.

Where in Tempe? It sounds like the card needs to be replaced if it is forcing you to swipe every time you insert the chip. Most mom and pop stores have Apple Pay as well, so long say you walk some of them how to run the transaction, which because its a mom and pop place, you'd only ned to walk them through that once, next time they will remember how to do it.

 

[12vElectronics]

I'm genuinely curious...

Is your business mostly walk-in retail (as opposed to mostly online/phone based)? And, are there sinage/materials near the reader to let people know ApplePay is accepted?

Mostly walk in retail. No phone or online sales.
There are no signs indicating we accept Apple Pay.

 

[ecschwarz]

It's the same with using Apple Wallet to scan your Panera Rewards card. Only some of the terminals can do it. It's a very weird setup. I do give Panera props for the app though. You can order ahead of time and pay with Apple Pay from the app. It's so annoying with other fast casual places that make you enter a credit card.

I honestly think every Panera is like this and it seems to just be a malfunction/terminals needing a reboot - considering some of the data security issues they've had in the past, I wish they had NFC working consistently in stores. Instead, I typically just order ahead with the app (figure Apple Pay in transit through that system is probably okay).

 

[dontwalkhand]

Mostly walk in retail. No phone or online sales.
There are no signs indicating we accept Apple Pay.

That would also be it as well. Most consumers don’t even have their iCloud setup right.

 

[switcher3365]

I don't remember seeing an NCF option listed, but I tried it anyway on this past Saturday as I thought it was already in effect and it worked!

 

[Lozza013]

On a trip to SF last year, I was paying for merchandise at Alcatraz. I was absolutley shocked when I had to insert my Visa Debit Card and had to sign for a purchase. We got rid of signatures in Australia back in 2014. I really don't understand how the US is so backwards on Card Technology when they are the home of MasterCard, Visa and AMEX.

 

[JRobinsonJr]

You say this but do you know that enabling NFC in the hardware that already exist increases cost to the merchant. I have a dear friend that ran an independent pharmacy. He told me that to turn on NFC would cost him an additional 2% in processing fees.

Actually no. I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. Sounds like it's a good time to research alternative processors.

Makes no sense to me that any of them would charge MORE simply based on the connection style. Of course, I do realize that manually typing the numbers costs more, but at least a NFC connection is (or should be) considered secure.

ALL: Can anyone with direct knowledge comment on the logistics of enabling various connection types? If NFC costs more, does that also explain why CHIP cards are not enabled for many smaller businesses... and even some big ones?

 

[ecschwarz]

On a trip to SF last year, I was paying for merchandise at Alcatraz. I was absolutley shocked when I had to insert my Visa Debit Card and had to sign for a purchase. We got rid of signatures in Australia back in 2014. I really don't understand how the US is so backwards on Card Technology when they are the home of MasterCard, Visa and AMEX.

We got rid of signatures a year ago and there's a lot of merchants that haven't updated or changed their software to stop prompting. The better technology exists and is running in some places, but between the volume of retailers (Walmart alone has something like 5000 stores in the US, Kroger has a few thousand, same with Target), upgrades happen only when they really have to and at a glacial pace. It comes down to money and scale.

In 2015, the "liability shift" happened, where merchants were encouraged to move to EMV chip readers, or be on the hook for magstripe fraud. It took forever between the certifications, extensions, and actual installations of new terminals (some places, like Meijer and Walmart were already in good shape). Similarly, gas pumps were supposed to be done in 2017, but that has been pushed back.

I don't think that it's entirely us being backwards, but rather the volume and some pushback to encourage other things during technology shifts (Walmart Pay, to help circumvent credit card fees). Having been to Australia, I think the population density and number of merchants might look quite a bit different than the US (especially when the eastern half of the US comes into play). Basically, there's too many big chains in too many places

 

[JRobinsonJr]

... I use Apple pay at that location........and they still make me sign receipt!!!!!!

I can't speak from a position of experience on the back-end, but am certainly frustrated by this too. I suspect, unfortunately, that although MC/VISA/AMEX/DISC no longer require signatures, for these companies their back-end accounting practices still want the paper trail.

 

[ecschwarz]

ALL: Can anyone with direct knowledge comment on the logistics of enabling various connection types? If NFC costs more, does that also explain why CHIP cards are not enabled for many smaller businesses... and even some big ones?

At previous jobs, they used Bank of America and later Chase as processors on little pinpad-style machines (First Data, then Verifone) and NFC was just enabled by default. I think EMV chip not being enabled comes down to some PCI compliance checks/certifications for bigger businesses needing to happen - that's why a lot of stores have "coming soon" inserts in their slots.

The card issuers want NFC and EMV chip use, as it's more secure, so I don't think they'd be trying to penalize merchants who want to use it.

 

[JRobinsonJr]

I don't think that it's entirely us being backwards, but rather the volume and some pushback to encourage other things during technology shifts

Agreed. Same goes even for operating system updates. I have customers still on Windows Server 2003 because the software either doesn't support newer OS versions *or* they have 1000+ servers to upgrade and that is just cost prohibitive.

Wasn't there recently an article about a 30 year old Commadore Amiga still being used (January 2019) to operate a school systems HVAC? This is indicative of the bigger issue. Technology moves far more quickly than business processes.

 

[truthertech]

True, but Target has no doubt negotiated a discounted card processing fee with the issuer of their store card, so the Apple fee will probably hurt them more than with regular cards.
The token (virtual card number or DAN) is actually not a one-time number but stays constant (you can see the last 4 digits in the Wallet app). Only the additional security code changes for every transaction. This means Apple Pay transactions can actually be tracked and tied to a card across transactions. What's missing is the mapping of the card to a person (Apple Pay does not transmit the name or other identifying information to the merchant terminal like physical cards do). But given that Target closely cooperates with the bank that issues their store cards, I'm sure the bank will be happy to map the DAN to a customer ID for Target. So no, using the Red Card in Apple Pay will not improve customer privacy.

You've got this a little bit confused. Apple Pay doesn't use Red Card yet, and if you did use Target's Red Card at Target, of course your privacy isn't going to be improved because you are sending your information to the card issuer, i.e., Target! Using any other card will improve your privacy.

 

[Lozza013]

We got rid of signatures a year ago and there's a lot of merchants that haven't updated or changed their software to stop prompting. The better technology exists and is running in some places, but between the volume of retailers (Walmart alone has something like 5000 stores in the US, Kroger has a few thousand, same with Target), upgrades happen only when they really have to and at a glacial pace. It comes down to money and scale.

In 2015, the "liability shift" happened, where merchants were encouraged to move to EMV chip readers, or be on the hook for magstripe fraud. It took forever between the certifications, extensions, and actual installations of new terminals (some places, like Meijer and Walmart were already in good shape). Similarly, gas pumps were supposed to be done in 2017, but that has been pushed back.

I don't think that it's entirely us being backwards, but rather the volume and some pushback to encourage other things during technology shifts (Walmart Pay, to help circumvent credit card fees). Having been to Australia, I think the population density and number of merchants might look quite a bit different than the US (especially when the eastern half of the US comes into play). Basically, there's too many big chains in too many places

Yes I guess we have 25 Million people comapred to 300m+ in the US but still I do think this is way too slow to implement.

 

[truthertech]

They still haven't adopted chip and pin... it's chip and signature. Or chip and nothing else on smaller purchases.

Actually, a few, mainly credit unions have adopted chip and PIN, but I misspoke and should have used chip and signature as that is the vast majority of transactions as, once again, they banks think consumers can't handle another PIN, although everyone would undoubtedly just use their debit card PIN.

 

[MadeTheSwitch]

On a trip to SF last year, I was paying for merchandise at Alcatraz. I was absolutley shocked when I had to insert my Visa Debit Card and had to sign for a purchase. We got rid of signatures in Australia back in 2014. I really don't understand how the US is so backwards on Card Technology when they are the home of MasterCard, Visa and AMEX.

We unfortunately are backwards in a lot of things. And we have an annoying habit of inventing things only to let others make it better while we stagnate. Part of that reason is due to size as others have mentioned. Much like corporations, smaller entities can move quicker and larger ones move slower....like a glacier. It also would have helped in this case if some retailers hadn’t invested in flawed failed concepts instead of just going with the big established players like Apple to begin with.

What annoys me most about U.S. payments is the hodgepodge nature of it. Each retailer works different and as some have mentioned different registers in the same store can work different. It’s very very stupid. There needs to be more consistency.

 

[tmiw]

What annoys me most about U.S. payments is the hodgepodge nature of it. Each retailer works different and as some have mentioned different registers in the same store can work different. It’s very very stupid. There needs to be more consistency.

I actually think that the inconsistency and slowness is a feature from a merchant's point of view. Many wouldn't shed any tears if Visa/MC stopped being a thing; in fact, without decades of conditioning the public to use cards, I suspect the US would be more like Germany and Japan in card acceptance.

 

[Buran]

I’m thinking that NFC payment popularity depends on your location. I live in the Midwest near St. Louis. In my personal experience I have never seen anyone (besides myself) use NFC while standing in a checkout lane. Furthermore, when I use Apple Pay at a merchant that accepts it the clerks still act surprised, as if it’s something new. Cash and Credit Cards appear to be the overwhelming norm in my neck of the woods. Could be another example of how tech oriented people live in a different world than the general population.

I'm hoping the Brentwood Target starts taking NFC payments soon if it doesn't already, but I haven't had a reason to go there recently.