Target Begins Apple Pay Rollout at Select Locations

Discussion in 'MacRumors.com News Discussion' started by MacRumors, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. nsayer macrumors 6502a

    nsayer

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    #101
    Let's just put this into perspective. While Australia is approximately the size of the continental U.S., the population of Australia is slightly less than the population of Texas. The U.S. Population is about 13 times more than that and has more than basically two centers of population (Perth and the Southeast coastline).
     
  2. dontwalkhand macrumors 601

    dontwalkhand

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    #102
    It also seems that every other country on this world uses bank provided terminals en masse, which makes it VERY easy to deploy things like contactless (but also very hard on customizing it to your needs). In the US, most stores use proprietary systems for each store, which are fully integrated with the POS, rather than bank provided equipment. (Which explains why most mom and pop stores in the US have Apple Pay, because like Australia, they choose to use the bank provided equipment, rather than a full POS system). No sane store like Walmart in the US is going to use standalone bank provided bank terminals.

    Now, bear in mind that Walmarts in other countries around Europe (such as ASDA) do have contactless enabled, but not in other markets such as Canada, Mexico, and the US. CA/MX/US Walmarts use the same Ingenico iSC250 setups with no contactless enabled. In Europe, Walmarts use the Ingenico iPP350, but with contactless enabled....it isn't bank provided, still Walmart provided equipment.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 4, 2019 ---
    Something called EMVCo Certifications. These are still very backlogged, as they had a whole country the size of a continent with billions of different point of sale systems and credit card readers all wanting certifications at once. Whereas in other countries, they just had to certify a few bank provided models, and those were what you had to choose from.
     
  3. ecschwarz macrumors 65816

    ecschwarz

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    #103
    By the way, it's a little off-topic, but I want to point out how impressive it is that Aldi (the US arm at least) went from only taking debit cards or cash (to cut costs) to taking credit cards (3/2016) to having NFC fired up and working well (9/2017) and most stores had the EMV slots enabled, around that time, too. They use the Verifone mx915s, too and their implementation is the kind where you can run your card at any point in the transaction (instead of waiting for NFC to be ready).
     
  4. Rigby macrumors 601

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    #104
    Never claimed they did.
    The Redcard credit card is actually issued by TD Bank. Not sure about the debit card.
    Within the limits that I described. If you disclose your identity even once while making an Apple Pay transaction (e.g. by using the loyalty card or allowing Target to scan your ID when buying alcoholic beverages), the merchant can track and link your future purchases to you via the DAN, regardless of which card you use. Large retailers like Target and Walmart have gotten very good at this.
     
  5. Somian macrumors regular

    Somian

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Location:
    Cupertino, CA
    #105
    One would think that the two Targets in Cupertino would be a good starting location.
     
  6. MisterSavage macrumors 6502

    MisterSavage

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2018
    #107
    Holy cow I don't shop at Aldi and had no idea they didn't take CC's for a while.
     
  7. cbaca51 macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2016
    #108
    About time. Hope they bring this to the west coast stores soon
     
  8. beanbaguk macrumors 6502a

    beanbaguk

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Europe
    #109
    Touchy touchy! Isn't that the idea of a forum to discuss topics? It's a genuine level of surprise that the nation that created Apple Pay is probably one of the worst adopters of the technology. As one of the leaders of technology, I'm truly shocked NFC payment technologies (and chip and pin), have not been widely adopted across the US.

    There's nothing wrong with expressing surprise so not much I can do about that. Sorry this offends you but I'll continue to express my comments when it's genuinely odd!
     
  9. JRobinsonJr macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2015
    Location:
    Arlington, Texas
    #110
    Thanks! Much appreciated.
     
  10. truthertech macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    #111
    [QUOTE
    Within the limits that I described. If you disclose your identity even once while making an Apple Pay transaction (e.g. by using the loyalty card or allowing Target to scan your ID when buying alcoholic beverages), the merchant can track and link your future purchases to you via the DAN, regardless of which card you use. Large retailers like Target and Walmart have gotten very good at this.[/QUOTE]


    All they get is a four digit portion of your DAN.
     
  11. parseckadet macrumors 65816

    parseckadet

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    #112
    It's surprising to me to hear that Walmart in Canada doesn't have contactless enabled. Every time one of these stories pops up the comments are inundated with Canadians swearing up and down that they use contactless payments EVERYWHERE. I'll keep this little nugget of information handy for the next time I see one of those comments.
    Why? Cupertino is Apple's HQ, not Target's. To Target Cupertino is just a city in California most people haven't heard of. I would expect them to roll it out in Minneapolis first, since that's where Target's HQ is.
     
  12. truthertech macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    #113


    Just to correct your major misstatements--the merchants do not get your DAN. They get a four digit portion of it, so no they can't map your DAN to you because they never have it. Apple never gets it. As far as your theory about banks "being glad" to decrypt your DAN for their card and share it with merchants (it's unique for each card you add to Apple Pay) that would be a massive violation of their agreement with Apple and end their involvement with Apple Pay.
     
  13. castlema macrumors member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2003
    #114
    Costco is an odd case since many people (myself included) have the Costco Visa card which doubles as our Costco membership card. Since you have to get out the card at checkout so that the member number can be scanned there is no advantage to using Apple Pay afterward. If you use your debit card or a different Visa card then using Apple Pay would make sense.
     
  14. truthertech macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    #115

    Apple is working on the issue of loyalty and membership cards in the Apple Wallet, so hopefully that will be resolved soon, but most importantly, you're ignoring the entire privacy and security aspect of using Apple Pay.
     
  15. ecschwarz macrumors 65816

    ecschwarz

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    #116
    I think Costco (and maybe Sam's Club if hell freezes over and Walmart caves) are sort of the exception in that it's mandatory to associate your membership with a purchase. I've had a Sam's Club membership for a long time (using the "household" one of a family member's) and I don't go there often, but when I do, the purchases are varied enough that I'm sure whatever algorithm is trying to track and understand my spending habits is being thrown for a loop.

    As for places like Target's Carthweel/Circle (renamed from Red today), Meijer's mPerks, the current name of Best Buy's Reward Zone (can't remember at the moment), Kroger's Plus, and other loyalty programs, not using them would be the way to opt out for privacy with Apple Pay. Again, I think it's up to the user how much or how little they want to use these, but I think being picky on a per-store basis isn't bad.
     
  16. dontwalkhand macrumors 601

    dontwalkhand

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    #117
    To add to it, when Target was in Canada, Target opted for the Verifone Mx880 there, with no contactless either.

    Chipotle in Canada is another one that has no Contactless, in fact to make it worse, no chip either! Canadians are amazed that they still *swipe* there.
     
  17. MisterSavage macrumors 6502

    MisterSavage

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2018
    #118
    It's getting better! I got an email from IKEA today and it included an "add to Apple Wallet" button for my IKEA Family (their loyalty program) number. I just added it.

    Chipotle is like that in the US also. At least the ones I go to. Swipe only.
     
  18. rugmankc macrumors 68000

    rugmankc

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2014
    #119
    Now taken at Beavercreek, Ohio location---:)

    4 Green Dots, accepted my watch almost immediately. That's at least 6 times faster than my chip.
     
  19. Rigby macrumors 601

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    #120
    Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. I've said what needed to be said for people who are willing to learn.
     
  20. nsayer macrumors 6502a

    nsayer

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    #121
    I tried, but I couldn't let it go. :)

    NFC isn't secure at all, nor should it be considered secure. What makes credit card transactions over NFC acceptable is that the transactions themselves are secure because of the cryptography performed in the secure element of the card/phone.

    You could perform such a transaction using bullhorns in the parking lot and it would still be secure, despite the fact that the transport mechanism isn't. The only thing that matters is that the card/phone can authenticate messages to the bank in a trustworthy way and no one in the middle can modify the messages and retain that trust and that no one can (at a reasonable cost) clone the secure element. Nothing between the bank and the card/phone is trusted, nor should it be.

    There have been supply-chain attacks on the terminals, but the most you can do by tampering with the terminal is capture the PIN and card number or modify the transaction details (like add a few cents to the amount, but then the merchant could do that himself too) before it gets authenticated by the card. Capturing the PIN/card combination could be used in CNP or mag stripe transaction attacks, but Apple Pay is immune to that because the virtual card number cannot be used for CNP or mag stripe transactions.
     
  21. JRobinsonJr macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2015
    Location:
    Arlington, Texas
    #122
    Fair response. I was referring to CC over NFC and how they are secured cryptographically... but wasn't clear. Appreciate the additional commentary!
     

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