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Target Plans to Offer Apple Pay After Chip-and-PIN Card Upgrade

ptb42 said:
I have a Wells Fargo card with a PIN. But, it's a SECONDARY form of authentication. The PRIMARY form of authentication is still a signature, unless the card is used at an unattended terminal.

In practice, it didn't work for me in Europe. When I tried to use the card at an unattended terminal, the transaction failed -- just like a different card that had no PIN. Fortunately, the terminal (a gas pump) accepted cash.
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According to http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/car...rity=no_preference&type[]=credit&type[]=debit Wells Fargo seems to only support encrypted PIN and not plaintext PIN. I'm betting that's why the pump didn't like the card, even though they're supposed to support both.
 
drewyboy said:
I know you were being snarky, but apparently you've never rolled out something like this. It seems like common sense, please don't take offense but in my field of work it is, that just because the hardware front end is there doesn't mean anything. There is SO much that needs to go on behind the scenes to actually support it. Think of it like an iceberg. You're only seeing 10% completed, the easiest 10% at that. The other 90% is the crap you have only one shot at getting right.
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Target's worked like CVS's worked like Home Depot's worked before they switched them off. The hardware being doesn't mean anything but when they work and the store disables them that means a lot. Don't be so condescending.
 
TallManNY said:
Pathetic because Apple Pay is already more secure than Chip and Pin. And faster.
And easier to implement. Sure, get Chip and Pin working. Sounds great. However I don't really want to enter a pin. And assuming it is a four digit number which the dude behind me will know looking over my shoulder, I'm not sure it is secure. Though I don't really know what the Chip part of the process really does. But I don't see how it can be more secure than one-time use tokenization.
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Is there a troll that lives under bridges in your city?
How about a boogieman?
 
Elbon said:
Exactly.

Also - how many people in the U.S. even have a chip and PIN card at the moment, vs. how many have an iPhone 6 or 6+? And even if I did have a chip and PIN card, I'd still rather just carry around a phone that contains all of my payment info rather than a phone plus a wallet full of cards.
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All my cards now have a chip, and everyone I know has at least one chip card. Banks are mailing out chip credit and debit cards willy nilly right now.
 
bawbac said:
Is there a troll that lives under bridges in your city?
How about a boogieman?
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Nope. But yesterday someone tried to use my credit card number. So this stuff happens. Now I've had to have the card cancelled and reissued.
 
C DM said:
What can a phone number do?
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40% off new hardcovers at Barnes and Nobel.

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drewyboy said:
I know you were being snarky, but apparently you've never rolled out something like this. It seems like common sense, please don't take offense but in my field of work it is, that just because the hardware front end is there doesn't mean anything. There is SO much that needs to go on behind the scenes to actually support it. Think of it like an iceberg. You're only seeing 10% completed, the easiest 10% at that. The other 90% is the crap you have only one shot at getting right.
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I'm going to go ahead and be snarky right now when I say that you have never worked retail before. When people see technology that isn't functional in a store they either assume the equipment is junk or the employees are. It doesn't matter what percent is seen, it all adds up to 100% to the consumer.
 
4jasontv said:
40% off new hardcovers at Barnes and Nobel.

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I'm going to go ahead and be snarky right now when I say that you have never worked retail before. When people see technology that isn't functional in a store they either assume the equipment is junk or the employees are. It doesn't matter what percent is seen, it all adds up to 100% to the consumer.
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A lot of places solved the phone number thing by having you type it in on the PIN pad, Safeway and Walgreens come to mind.

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TallManNY said:
Pathetic because Apple Pay is already more secure than Chip and Pin. And faster.
And easier to implement. Sure, get Chip and Pin working. Sounds great. However I don't really want to enter a pin. And assuming it is a four digit number which the dude behind me will know looking over my shoulder, I'm not sure it is secure. Though I don't really know what the Chip part of the process really does. But I don't see how it can be more secure than one-time use tokenization.
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What's a PIN without a card? It's like two step authentication, why does this even matter?
 
ecschwarz said:
They also have a Amex-based prepaid card that you can load from another credit card. It's like the Amex Serve/Walmart Bluebird card, but can be reloaded at the register from various sources and has the 5% Red Card discount. You could always just load it up and use it like a glorified gift card:

https://amex.serve.com/prepaidredcard/

Since it's based on generally the same program as the Amex Serve card, it could also act as a check-less checking account - direct deposit, bill pay, and ATM access.
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Can the AMEX Redcard be loaded into ApplePay?
 
mdelvecchio said:
not good enough, Mr. CEO.

why work on implementing chip-and-pin, which few people have yet, when you could implement tokenized NFC which millions and millions have and want to use, AND is better than chip-and-pin to begin with?
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Because the vast majority of chip-and-pin terminals that I have encountered also work with NFC. It makes sense to accommodate both when both are going to be a factor.
 
had target had ANY foresight, they would have been onboard form day 1. Epic fail Target

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dontwalkhand said:
A lot of places solved the phone number thing by having you type it in on the PIN pad, Safeway and Walgreens come to mind.
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the walgreen system is a joke..like 8 steps to check out. Cant they just link it to something...anything...so I don't have to push so many germ filled buttons (it is a pharmacy after all)
 
bawbac said:
Odd how stuff like this happens to occur when the topic is Apple Pay and security issues.
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Well I'm a frequent poster and mainly focused these days on the Watch and not Apple Pay. But this is just a coincidence and I don't think it is odd at all.
 
ButteryScrollin said:
My local Target has NFC readers that they've switched off, so saying they'd love to do it right now is ********.
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It's likely that they just haven't yet done all of the back-end work needed to deal with them, and payment systems aren't the sort of thing that you want to half-ass.

Your local target may have the *hardware* with the NFC readers installed, but the software at the terminal may not be configured to support them yet, or may not be *able* to support them without an upgrade that hasn't been rolled out yet.
 
reservoirdog said:
I work in banking, and everyone is switching to chip and signature instead of the more secure chip and PIN. The reason? We commissioned study after study and they all said that the average American was simply too stupid to remember their PIN.
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of COURSE America is too stupid. With all the junk food and some we consume, how can we have any brain cells?

and remember, there are a large portion of Americans that have an android phone....like you said, stupid
 
tbrinkma said:
It's likely that they just haven't yet done all of the back-end work needed to deal with them, and payment systems aren't the sort of thing that you want to half-ass.

Your local target may have the *hardware* with the NFC readers installed, but the software at the terminal may not be configured to support them yet, or may not be *able* to support them without an upgrade that hasn't been rolled out yet.
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This. Imagine stuff debit cards simply not working at all in chip mode (like is the case at Walmart right now) if Target launches too early. That's why I'm expecting basically a simultaneous activation of tons of major retailers close to October; I bet HD and Walmart would have done the same had they known they'd run into issues.

BTW, debit cards aren't the only problem. Home Depot basically only supports chip and signature right now and will downgrade all foreign cards to it.
 
mdelvecchio said:
not good enough, Mr. CEO.

why work on implementing chip-and-pin, which few people have yet, when you could implement tokenized NFC which millions and millions have and want to use, AND is better than chip-and-pin to begin with?
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Why? Because after this year, credit cards in the US will all be chip & pin, and any retailer who doesn't move to handling them that way will be left contractually responsible for fraudulent charges. Mind you, the tokenized NFC standard *is* better, but *most* people aren't using it yet, so the retail establishments are going to focus on what impacts their finances the most first.

Seriously, you say "millions and millions", in a country with a population of over three *hundred* million. NFC (including the new tokenized standard) are pocket change from the perspective of transaction count *and* value.

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mdelvecchio said:
how many people is a "fair number"? i dont know anybody with PIN cards, but i know plenty of people with iPhone 6es and now apple watches.
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Most credit cards that have been issued in the last 3-5 years are chip & pin capable. Those that aren't will almost certainly be replaced by the end of the year. What you don't know are anyone using chip & pin at the pay terminal, because most places haven't rolled it out yet, and those that have aren't advertising it, and probably won't until the contractual liability for fraudulent charges switches over to the retailers. That's coming soon, which is why retailers are working on upgrading their pay systems to be chip & pin compatible.

The bonus for them is that the terminals they're purchasing will *also* support NFC, so once they have this rollout done, they can focus on enabling *that*, too. (Some of them will do both at once.)
 
tbrinkma said:
Why? Because after this year, credit cards in the US will all be chip & pin, and any retailer who doesn't move to handling them that way will be left contractually responsible for fraudulent charges. Mind you, the tokenized NFC standard *is* better, but *most* people aren't using it yet, so the retail establishments are going to focus on what impacts their finances the most first.

Seriously, you say "millions and millions", in a country with a population of over three *hundred* million. NFC (including the new tokenized standard) are pocket change from the perspective of transaction count *and* value.

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Most credit cards that have been issued in the last 3-5 years are chip & pin capable. Those that aren't will almost certainly be replaced by the end of the year. What you don't know are anyone using chip & pin at the pay terminal, because most places haven't rolled it out yet, and those that have aren't advertising it, and probably won't until the contractual liability for fraudulent charges switches over to the retailers. That's coming soon, which is why retailers are working on upgrading their pay systems to be chip & pin compatible.

The bonus for them is that the terminals they're purchasing will *also* support NFC, so once they have this rollout done, they can focus on enabling *that*, too. (Some of them will do both at once.)
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That would be chip and signature in U.S.
 
C DM said:
That would be chip and signature in U.S.
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Yeah, sorry. :eek: I've taken to calling both 'chip & pin' as a short-hand because for most people who know about it, it's the concept rather than the specifics being discussed, and for those who don't really know about it it sounds like something completely different, and ends up confusing them.

I really don't know why most of the US is going with Chip & Sig instead of Chip & Pin.
 
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