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I don't understand the attitude of Hieveryone and the others, who advocate for lying and making a scene. Not because I'm holier than thou and lying is immoral (that's only my personal opinion and I respect that others play differently), but because for the self-serving reasoning that a Genius has LESS REASON to go out of his way to help you, if he catches you lying or if you treat him like crap.

I have previously been given a fresh battery for my 3 year old Macbook Air, 1 week before my extended Apple Care expired, because I was friendly and calmly explained that, yes indeed, I probably caused the battery to blow up by constantly recharging and draining the battery (had some 3000+ cycles), but that I also did that because I made the honest mistake of believing that this was the most sensible way of treating a battery. The battery of my old Sony Vaio laptop from 2005 died after only half a year, because I kept it constantly plugged in and never let the battery drain and I took that to heart and thought I'd be very good with never letting my MBA "overcharge" like this. Little did I know, that this was in fact the worst thing I could have done to its battery. Yet, I explained that calmly, said I was sorry for my stupidity. Of course it helped my argument that from day 1 my MBA never reached the advertised 5 hrs of battery life (2 hrs on a good day), so I didn't have much choice other than to frequently recharge, but still it was my mainly my fault for recharging, draining, recharging, draining... like 5 times a day when the battery eventually blew up.

Before I had elaborated on why I had recharged so often, the Genius was adamant that a battery was consumable and not covered by Apple Care, especially not after 3 years way past 3000 cycles. After I had calmly and friendly explained why I had recharged so often, he very kindly gave me the battery replacement for free.

So don't think honesty is only for weak-ass Green Tea drinking moral people, who get steamrolled in life. It's actually a powerful tool for getting people to like you and help you out when you messed up.


.............


EDIT: We have a proverb in Austria "Talking gets people on the same side". I always found that I was more successful in pulling others on my side than beating them in an argument, but I know others, who can win any verbal fight and therefor always choose this approach. I suppose in the end, the right strategy depends on the OP's personality: Are you generally more successful in a confrontation where you pressure people to do as you wish, or are you more successful in connecting with people on a friendly level where they end up wanting to help you out?


We have a proverb in America: Nice guys finish last.

/endthread
 
We have a proverb in America: Nice guys finish last.

/endthread

I have no doubts that for you, Hieveryone, the confrontational strategy is a successful one. It's impossible, however, to generalize like this and present your subjective experience as the "endthread" answer. If the OP doesn't happen to share your dominant demeanor, this approach could get him into real troubles!

I've tried to be rude and demanding previously and it didn't get me anywhere, because I cannot be convincing with that strategy. I feel guilty and bad about it and people pick up on that insecurity and hence have no reason to give in and get me what I want.
On the other hand, as long as I'm kind and apologetic (yet persistent), I feel strong and confident and people sense that and almost always fall over backwards to help me out.

As I said, it completely boils down to the OP's personality what approach will work best for him. If he is an affable harmony addict like me, he might crumble in a loud argument with a Genius.
If he has a demanding and unscrupulous personality like you, he might not want to waste his time with my lame-ass nice-guy (girl) approach. :)
 
We have a proverb in America: Nice guys finish last.

/endthread

Ok - lets say your method works and you DO get refunds/repairs after complaining.

Where does that leave you?

With a few more bucks in your account, but as someone who believes it's okay to bully others and beat them down even when you know you're in the wrong and they're correct.

Sorry buddy, but that's not someone I want to be, even for a little bit.

It's not because I'm super-moral or anything, just - that's a low I'm not willing to go.

It says a lot about a person who finds that behavior acceptable, and sorry buddy if a few hundred bucks is enough to break you, but I have the luxury of having a good job and making enough to where I don't have to throw tantrums and threaten people.
 
We have a proverb in America: Nice guys finish last.

/endthread
Hypothetical: You list a used MBP on Ebay with a 'buy it now price.' Your listing is very concise in describing the model, hardware, and the fact that there is no visible damage to the Mac. You also provide pictures of the Mac. Another Ebay member decides to buy your Mac and makes the purchase with PayPal. You get your money and don't hear anything negative from the buyer until day 160, where he leaves you negative feedback and also files a claim with PayPal alleging that the Mac was dented on the bottom (which he claims the picture didn't show) and would not turn on.

The buyer is very aggressive (read verbally abusive) to you in a message claiming you deceived him. He wants his money back. He is also obnoxious and aggressive with PayPal because he wants his money back. He also starts posting a rant on places like MacRumors about his alleged experience.

Even though your listing was very clear and concise, and showed many pictures that clearly showed the condition of the computer, PayPal sides with him and you have to give him his money back. And in return, you get a beat up Mac that used to be in excellent condition.

This guy, who was obnoxious and was abusive to everyone involved, because he damaged the Mac and didn't want to pay for repairs, got his $1500.00 back, because he lied and did anything and everything he could to make things miserable until he got what we wanted.

You are out $1500.00 and have a beat up Mac that you can only sell for parts now, all because you ran into someone like yourself.

There is no way in the world that you would accept that scenario, because you didn't do anything wrong. You had physical proof that the Mac that was sent was not as he claimed. You would be on this forum ranting and raving about how you got cheated and you know it. More than likely, you would be out for blood.

The buyer stole from you. What you are proudly defending in this thread is the same thing. And for some unknown reason, you think it is perfectly acceptable.

You, along with a few others, have shown the rest of the forum, that your word is meaningless, as you will lie whenever you think it will benefit you. And if you ever try and sell something here on the forum, there will be many people that will remember what you said here.

Honor isn't supposed to have a price.
 
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I have a 2012 rMBP. There were a few bright pixels on the LCD but not enough to really notice, and I had decided it wasn't worth taking it in to have repaired.

One day I decided to clean the screen and accidentally grabbed my lens cleaner bottle instead. As I rubbed the cleaner on my rMBP screen I noticed that it was removing whatever coating the screen had on it. In just a few seconds of rubbing I had rubbed a huge hole in my screen (not literally, but where the coating was removed made it look really, really bad).

I sent it in to Apple and admitted what I had done. I also told them about the few bright pixels, but was completely upfront about my cleaning mistake. They returned my computer 3 days later with a brand new screen...No Charge!

Honesty is the best policy!
 
Yeah just wait till I call your manager or email the district manager and tell them how rude, unhelpful, and unpleasant you are. I'll get your name and report you make no mistake. I'll do everything in my power to get you fired. Then we'll see how unwilling you are to help.

Works every time.

You sir, are a model human being!
 
Hypothetical: You list a used MBP on Ebay with a 'buy it now price.' Your listing is very concise in describing the model, hardware, and the fact that there is no visible damage to the Mac. You also provide pictures of the Mac. Another Ebay member decides to buy your Mac and makes the purchase with PayPal. You get your money and don't hear anything negative from the buyer until day 160, where he leaves you negative feedback and also files a claim with PayPal alleging that the Mac was dented on the bottom (which he claims the picture didn't show) and would not turn on.

The buyer is very aggressive (read verbally abusive) to you in a message claiming you deceived him. He wants his money back. He is also obnoxious and aggressive with PayPal because he wants his money back. He also starts posting a rant on places like MacRumors about his alleged experience.

Even though your listing was very clear and concise, and showed many pictures that clearly showed the condition of the computer, PayPal sides with him and you have to give him his money back. And in return, you get a beat up Mac that used to be in excellent condition.

This guy, who was obnoxious and was abusive to everyone involved, because he damaged the Mac and didn't want to pay for repairs, got his $1500.00 back, because he lied and did anything and everything he could to make things miserable until he got what we wanted.

You are out $1500.00 and have a beat up Mac that you can only sell for parts now, all because you ran into someone like yourself.

There is no way in the world that you would accept that scenario, because you didn't do anything wrong. You had physical proof that the Mac that was sent was not as he claimed. You would be on this forum ranting and raving about how you got cheated and you know it. More than likely, you would be out for blood.

The buyer stole from you. What you are proudly defending in this thread is the same thing. And for some unknown reason, you think it is perfectly acceptable.

You, along with a few others, have shown the rest of the forum, that your word is meaningless, as you will lie whenever you think it will benefit you. And if you ever try and sell something here on the forum, there will be many people that will remember what you said here.

Honor isn't supposed to have a price.
You forgot one major detail: PayPal offers seller protection and this scenario fits perfectly to their seller protection program, so nobody is going to lose anything.
 
How would you feel, if you were a buyer and a seller tried to scam you?

How would you feel, if you were a business owner, and customers were constantly coming in trying to scam you, (read: lie to you) in order to get products or service they weren't rightfully entitled to?

Be honest with Apple.

I was thinking the whole time while reading this thread that he should lie, at least that is what I would do. UNTIL you made this comparison from a personal point of view. Even though apple makes so much profit off of warranties and repairs, it is still wrongful to lie and you will feel much better by telling the truth (even if you are out of 150-200 dollars). I say this because I myself have been scammed on eBay 3-4 times on high ticket items (64gb iPhones, etc.)
 
Hypothetical: You list a used MBP on Ebay with a 'buy it now price.' Your listing is very concise in describing the model, hardware, and the fact that there is no visible damage to the Mac. You also provide pictures of the Mac. Another Ebay member decides to buy your Mac and makes the purchase with PayPal. You get your money and don't hear anything negative from the buyer until day 160, where he leaves you negative feedback and also files a claim with PayPal alleging that the Mac was dented on the bottom (which he claims the picture didn't show) and would not turn on.

The buyer is very aggressive (read verbally abusive) to you in a message claiming you deceived him. He wants his money back. He is also obnoxious and aggressive with PayPal because he wants his money back. He also starts posting a rant on places like MacRumors about his alleged experience.

Even though your listing was very clear and concise, and showed many pictures that clearly showed the condition of the computer, PayPal sides with him and you have to give him his money back. And in return, you get a beat up Mac that used to be in excellent condition.

This guy, who was obnoxious and was abusive to everyone involved, because he damaged the Mac and didn't want to pay for repairs, got his $1500.00 back, because he lied and did anything and everything he could to make things miserable until he got what we wanted.

You are out $1500.00 and have a beat up Mac that you can only sell for parts now, all because you ran into someone like yourself.

There is no way in the world that you would accept that scenario, because you didn't do anything wrong. You had physical proof that the Mac that was sent was not as he claimed. You would be on this forum ranting and raving about how you got cheated and you know it. More than likely, you would be out for blood.

The buyer stole from you. What you are proudly defending in this thread is the same thing. And for some unknown reason, you think it is perfectly acceptable.

You, along with a few others, have shown the rest of the forum, that your word is meaningless, as you will lie whenever you think it will benefit you. And if you ever try and sell something here on the forum, there will be many people that will remember what you said here.

Honor isn't supposed to have a price.

I think there's one very big thing that's missing here. Maybe I failed to mention it, maybe you guys failed to understand it. Regardless, here it is:

I take care of myself in these situations by using my strategy, yes. But I ALSO assume people will behave in the EXACT same manner with me.

I would never put an expensive item on eBay. Why? Because there is not even a shadow of a doubt that if someone can screw me over, they will.

So, yes, getting screwed over is terrible. But if you're smart enough to get what you want out of people, you're smart enough to know that someone can do the same to you. And therefore, you learn how to protect yourself from it the best you can.
 
I think there's one very big thing that's missing here. Maybe I failed to mention it, maybe you guys failed to understand it. Regardless, here it is:

I take care of myself in these situations by using my strategy, yes. But I ALSO assume people will behave in the EXACT same manner with me.

I would never put an expensive item on eBay. Why? Because there is not even a shadow of a doubt that if someone can screw me over, they will.

So, yes, getting screwed over is terrible. But if you're smart enough to get what you want out of people, you're smart enough to know that someone can do the same to you. And therefore, you learn how to protect yourself from it the best you can.

Sounds like an awful little bunker of distrust you're living in there.

Also, the fact that you're willing to lie and implicitly threaten peoples livelihoods by going above them claiming that they're not doing their job just for your own unwarranted financial gain? Psychologically there's a lot of not so comforting things to say about that kind of behaviour.
 
So, yes, getting screwed over is terrible. But if you're smart enough to get what you want out of people, you're smart enough to know that someone can do the same to you. And therefore, you learn how to protect yourself from it the best you can.

The problem is that it isn't being "smart" as you put it (or at least how I see it). What it is, in my opinion, is being mean and underhanded. For my second job, I help out at a bike shop and can tell you that I see folks like you coming a mile away. I am more apt to help a person who is being nice and honest over a person who is being a hardened jerk just trying to get something he/she isn't really entitled to have. I have gone the extra mile for some people, and others (one who even threatened to have my job) were walked to the door and asked not to ever return. I will say that it is rare when the latter happens, but it has sadly.

I still stick to my guns. Be open and honest and you will be surprised how people are willing to work with you. Another nice tip? If you see a name badge on them, use their name and try to create a connection with the person. You will be surprised the latitude that many employees have and are willing to help you with. Like I said, I have had problems that I caused, including a cracked screen on a phone I dropped. I walked in, was honest (totally expecting to pay) and to my surprise, they covered it under warranty.
 
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Deny, deny, deny.

"It just stopped running on battery power, I have no idea what happened?"

If there is no visible damage, it won't go any further.

Honestly, while I'm not advocating screaming at this person in the middle of the apple store, apple products are priced at a premium, and they SHOULD be covered (even with a deductible) for accidental drops. Every other piece of technology that I have is covered for that, and their failure to offer that as part of applecare is indicative of the negative parts of the apple company that are only concerned with profits.

So if you can squeeze through a loophole without too much trouble, definitely do it. Don't rely on an employee who can make a decision baed on his current mood. Protect yourself and your investment.
 
Deny, deny, deny.

"It just stopped running on battery power, I have no idea what happened?"

If there is no visible damage, it won't go any further.

Honestly, while I'm not advocating screaming at this person in the middle of the apple store, apple products are priced at a premium, and they SHOULD be covered (even with a deductible) for accidental drops. Every other piece of technology that I have is covered for that, and their failure to offer that as part of applecare is indicative of the negative parts of the apple company that are only concerned with profits.

So if you can squeeze through a loophole without too much trouble, definitely do it. Don't rely on an employee who can make a decision baed on his current mood. Protect yourself and your investment.

Ever wonder why they are priced at a premium? I'll give you a hint...

deny deny deny.

That cost gets turned right back into a higher price for consumers. The company sure as hell won't eat it.
 
Ever wonder why they are priced at a premium? I'll give you a hint...

deny deny deny.

That cost gets turned right back into a higher price for consumers. The company sure as hell won't eat it.

Well then he better get his monies worth if that premium includes deny deny deny.
 
"Sorry Sir, his computer had obvious damage and when I asked him about it, he started yelling at me and calling me names and making threats. We tried to help him, but he kept making threats and calling us liars, in front of other customers. When he refused our attempts for a rational conversation, we not only feared for our own safety, but the safety of other customers. So we were forced to call the police. After the police took him, we further evaluated his computer and found conclusive evidence it was dropped. Would you like for us to send him the bill for repairs in jail, sir, or wait until he gets out?"

I worked in retail for years, among my many tasks was taking in repairs. There was not a single time I or my colleagues could not calm down a customer if they were excitable. How many times do shops have to call the police on irate customers (shoplifters are a different story)? It never happened in our chain of 60 stores. Without me even being there and likely able to spot multiple ways to defuse the situation I would at least have said 'We will take it in for repair to assess it', and allowed everybody to calm down away from the flash point. He could have just had a bad day. It was also a big assumption to make that he dropped it, literally anything could have happened and if you had accused me when I didn't I would have been offended too.

This sounds more like a failing of customer service skills to me, and I wouldn't want to shop at a store that attempted to send their customers to jail.
 
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Tell them the truth. It's not worth it to feel guilty afterwards, which is what I sense you are feeling now.
 
It seems it is all fun and games (to lie and cheat) with people like yourself, until you are truly in need through no fault of your own, and have to rely on the company to uphold their part of the agreement. People like yourself would expect honesty and attention with the company. However, you don't seem to realize or care that it is no different (at least it isn't supposed to be) on the customer side of the equation.

Entitlement mentality does not make good business or good customers. And your post here shows bad attitude full of entitlement mentality.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the entitlement point. But it is frustrating when you have a problem with a product and the seller is not upholding their side of the deal with a repair, refund or replacement. I'm sure everyone has experienced that at some stage.
 
http://youtu.be/gPwGcMadp88
I worked in retail for years, among my many tasks was taking in repairs. There was not a single time I or my colleagues could not calm down a customer if they were excitable. How many times do shops have to call the police on irate customers (shoplifters are a different story)? It never happened in our chain of 60 stores. Without me even being there and likely able to spot multiple ways to defuse the situation I would at least have said 'We will take it in for repair to assess it', and allowed everybody to calm down away from the flash point. He could have just had a bad day. It was also a big assumption to make that he dropped it, literally anything could have happened and if you had accused me when I didn't I would have been offended too.

This sounds more like a failing of customer service skills to me, and I wouldn't want to shop at a store that attempted to send their customers to jail.

LOL you realize this isn't an actual situation, and more so just back and forth in a fictitious scenario, right?

Anyway, apparently Hieveryone has been filmed already trying to return his iPad:

http://youtu.be/gPwGcMadp88
 
I'm not disagreeing with you on the entitlement point. But it is frustrating when you have a problem with a product and the seller is not upholding their side of the deal with a repair, refund or replacement. I'm sure everyone has experienced that at some stage.

You are right. When that scenario happens, it is very frustrating. I have had it happen to me more than once. I decided that even though I felt I was wrongly treated, I didn't want to become the mentality I detested.
 
I was thinking the whole time while reading this thread that he should lie, at least that is what I would do. UNTIL you made this comparison from a personal point of view. Even though apple makes so much profit off of warranties and repairs, it is still wrongful to lie and you will feel much better by telling the truth (even if you are out of 150-200 dollars). I say this because I myself have been scammed on eBay 3-4 times on high ticket items (64gb iPhones, etc.)
Glad that my post made you stop and see things in a different perspective. Good on you for having a change of heart.
 
You forgot one major detail: PayPal offers seller protection and this scenario fits perfectly to their seller protection program, so nobody is going to lose anything.

While my analogy may not have been perfect in every detail, I believe that I still managed to make an apropos point.

Stealing from Apple in this manner, is really no different (at its core) than someone who shoplifts or steals in any other manner, in my opinion. And what has been advocated by several here openly and those upvoting Hieveryone, is the entitlement philosophy. A thief thinks he or she is entitled to < insert product here> because he or she can't afford it otherwise, or that he or she can gain a better profit that purchasing legally would have afforded.

And when people steal from Apple in the manner being promoted here (by several people) it ultimately drives up the price of the product that everyone has to pay.

It doesn't matter that Apple products are expensive or that Apple is a huge company and makes a lot of money. What matters, is being a responsible and honest human being who honors his or her obligations. And sometimes that means admitting when you have made a mistake that cost you a lot of money.

Like I said earlier, a lot of these people advocating theft wrapped in rather vulgar, impudent behavior would not put up with someone treating them in such a manner in their personal life much less if they were an owner of a business. And yet, when it comes to Apple, they seem to think that just because they graced the doors of Apple and purchased a product, that that somehow entitles them to lie, cheat, and steal whenever they want Apple to change the terms of a warranty that they, the consumer, violated or no longer wishes to adhere to.
They seem to think that it is different because it is Apple or some other large company. It isn't.
 
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Ever wonder why they are priced at a premium? I'll give you a hint...

deny deny deny.

That cost gets turned right back into a higher price for consumers. The company sure as hell won't eat it.

I'm not condoning lying at all, but the higher prices aren't because they're worried about replacements. I'm sure all the money they spend on replacements is a complete drop in the bucket for them. The reason their products are priced at a premium is because they have the ability to charge those prices, nothing more nothing less.
 
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