*plonk*
Okay, does anyone who actually knows what a "com-pew-ter" is and why people use them have any comments?
Okay, does anyone who actually knows what a "com-pew-ter" is and why people use them have any comments?
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Thanks Apple, for the three year old Graphics Chip...
- Thread starter jsnuff1
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I don't know how many times this has to be said, but a mac is about more than the sum of it's hardware components. I can prove it as well, simply by the number of people whining about the GPU not being up to snuff. Because if the components aren't good enough for you, then why do you still want a Mac? Why isn't a PC laptop good enough for you?
Could it be the industrial design on a Mac? Touches like the Unibody case, the Mag safe adaptor, the backlit keyboard, the multi-touch functionality on the trackpad, the long battery life? The way Macs seem to stand the test of time better than PC's despite being (allegedly) underpowered.
Or could it be the software? A reliable, solid, Unix based OS that isn't prone to viruses and endless security patches? Or a suite of useful software that comes bundled with every Apple machine as well as industry leading video, music and photographic apps that can only be found on OS X?
Most of these features are exclusive to Macs and even the ones that aren't, are still implemented best by Apple. That's what you pay for, not the latest components crammed into a box and put out on a shelf as soon as possible.
Seriously, if the GPU is such a deal breaker, then please vote with your wallet and buy yourself a nice, heavy, plastic, hot PC. Apple have never been into the gaming section of the market and probably never will be while Steve Jobs is in charge so it's no good hanging around on these forums and stamping your feet like spoiled children. It won't make any difference so deal with it.
Could it be the industrial design on a Mac? Touches like the Unibody case, the Mag safe adaptor, the backlit keyboard, the multi-touch functionality on the trackpad, the long battery life? The way Macs seem to stand the test of time better than PC's despite being (allegedly) underpowered.
Or could it be the software? A reliable, solid, Unix based OS that isn't prone to viruses and endless security patches? Or a suite of useful software that comes bundled with every Apple machine as well as industry leading video, music and photographic apps that can only be found on OS X?
Most of these features are exclusive to Macs and even the ones that aren't, are still implemented best by Apple. That's what you pay for, not the latest components crammed into a box and put out on a shelf as soon as possible.
Seriously, if the GPU is such a deal breaker, then please vote with your wallet and buy yourself a nice, heavy, plastic, hot PC. Apple have never been into the gaming section of the market and probably never will be while Steve Jobs is in charge so it's no good hanging around on these forums and stamping your feet like spoiled children. It won't make any difference so deal with it.
therealseebs said:
Unlike you office geeks, filmmakers and others in creative professions do not work sitting at a desk. Even if a filmmaker is filming in a studio, as opposed to being on location, he is running around with his laptop all day. He's not sitting in a chair the whole time. Photographers do all day shoots in remote locations.
A laptop without an all day battery is WORTHLESS to these kinds of people. And the other poster is absolutely right when he says that apple could care less about you.
Going back to film, there are two types of filmmakers, ones that give you what you want (Brett Ratner, Shawn Levy, etc.) and those that make movies for themselves (Woody Allen, David Lynch, etc.). Steve Jobs has said many times that ideally, he wants OSX to have a 10% marketshare but doesn't want it to exceed that by much. Apple, like the second group of filmmakers, make what they want to make while most PC companies just give you what you ask for without putting any thought into their products.
OS X.
I've been using UNIX for 20+ years. I'm not about to stop now.
And yes, I actually do use Linux on laptops a fair bit, but I'd like to have the option of using a broader range of applications, and having the drivers in better shape.
OS X is really nice for me. It works really well. Well enough that I'll put up with sub-par hardware to have it.
Seriously, this is like asking a building contractor "well, if you want better gas mileage, why don't you get a hybrid?" Sometimes you have a mix of "hard requirements" (things you must have to use a computer) and "soft requirements" (things you would like to have).
For me, non-Windows is a hard requirement. A good GPU is a soft requirement.
But I'd be happier with a machine that had a good GPU and ran OS X. I'd happily pay $3k+ for a machine which was like the new MBP, but had a quad-core CPU, a decent GPU, and a second drive bay. Even if it was half an inch thicker.
I don't care at all about the design, as long as the keyboard's tolerable.
Magsafe adapter is a plus. None of the others have any influence on me at all.
And it is underpowered. Sure, it stays usable for a long time -- nice build quality. But I have a 2001 ThinkPad that still runs just fine, too.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Except that, as you've just pointed out, that doesn't have any of the other things which are more important.
What is it about you Apple fanboys, that it offends you for someone to want Apple to be good across the board, not just good at a couple of things?
You're doing a lot more foot-stamping than any of the people commenting that they'd have preferred a better GPU.
It may, indeed, make no difference. But you know what? Telling people what you think of their products has sometimes made a difference. Not telling them never does.
Is the idea of sitting around talking about computers, and expressing preferences, really that foreign? Used to be, Apple users loved to sit around talking about what they'd like to see, what would be useful to them, and so on, and then comparing what Apple actually shipped to what they were hoping for. What's with this idea that it's some kind of horrible crime against Apple to wish they'd build higher-end hardware?
I think we're done here.
We're talking about this on different levels, with different understandings of how companies make money and prioritize customers I mean I don't even know where you're coming from with this talk about Xserves and Apple really putting effort into the enterprise market because they don't. They spend a billion dollars on iPhone dev, how much do you think their server cost them to create?
Apple is not a super techy hardware company; they are a consumer electronics company, a media distribution channel, and a content creation platform. I can't really argue with someone that can't see the forest for the trees.
There's no excluding of a market; there you go again making up terms that don't apply, and/or don't mean what you think they mean. They just don't cater to certain markets, and every company does that; its business 101. If you're good at something, and people like it, keep doing that and put more energy into it. Don't go into extraneous ****.
This has become so esoteric and abstract I've made my points, I'm done. You can agree or disagree.
And because every Apple laptop in the world uses a single shared battery which they reach out to over the open air, the existence of a higher-powered laptop with shorter battery life would instantly destroy the potential for him to have longer battery life.
And that is why, until the unibody macbook pro showed up, not a single photographer or film producer ever bought a macbook pro, right?
Oh, wait. Wrong. Those people have been using Mac laptops since they were called "powerbooks" and you were lucky to get three hours of battery life out of them fresh out of the box. Your entire argument was just revealed to be, not just wrong, but breathtakingly stupid, because your whole point is to argue that it is absolutely impossible for Apple to have sold any of the millions of laptops they sold into that market in the previous twenty years.
But again, none of that has any influence on anything. The high-end and developer markets are markets Apple has clearly pushed for. They've said they are interested in these markets. They've provided features and functionality which the film people are never even going to see or comprehend, let alone use.
As you say, they will for the most part make what they want. They are not necessarily any more driven by what "creative types" want than they are by what the rest of us want; they're mostly driven by what Steve Jobs wants.
Then why include a 3d GPU at all if your not trying to pull in the Gamer and 3d modelers? These chips serve very little other purpose than for gaming (and these are gaming chips, not 3d CAD chips).
The video and photo editing demands can be easily me with the crapiest of intel chipsets.
Seems to me that Apple is trying to write checks its hardware cant cash.
Couldn't care less.
If you "could" care less, then you must care.
I know. I'm pedantic. But grammar matters....It's what keeps us from descending into savagery.
Best post i've read on the whole thread so far!
as a music producer this update was a big one for me, i wont buy it, i dont need to lol, i already have 2 perfectly adequate macs which i use.. But its nice to know that this update has got some balls about it. I would be happy to splurge 1k on a laptop like that. Its got the looks, battery and the power, it doesnt have the graphics but there are always trade offs. I think if apple had gone for a bigger card, they would of had more complaints about battery life being crap than right now. I reckon the next update might silent alot of the critics who are harking about graphics cards.
PTP
Almost your entire argument is flawed. The only thing you got right is Apple's complete disregard for the hard-core PC gamer (casual gamers are fine). Apple's focus on the creative industry and education is still there but nowhere near the total domination you imply. There are many studios and TV networks using Windows for much of the content creation and production. There are several applications for these fields that are Windows only.
But I digress. Apple wants more market and mind share. iPods, iPhones, iPads, iTunes and the App and book stores are clearly positioned at the mass market. Many companies now offer Mac laptops as an option to their employees. Our company would not have 15% Mac users had one of those "nerds" not demonstrated how effective Macs are with general business apps like Word and Excel.
Look at the sales mix for the "record Mac sales" http://www.infoworld.com/d/mac/mac-computer-sales-jump-nearly-40-percent-754
$999 & $1199 laptops are the biggest sellers. These are not going to the creative industry nor the hippest, trendy customers. Plain old ordinary computer users who want a reliable computer system buy many, many Apple computers. Additionally, may of these customers first used a mobile device from Apple before they ever considered a Mac.
Elitist puffery like yours serves no purpose in reasoned debate. The fact that Apple has no desire to create a higher end, gaming quality laptop or mid-tower for that matter is no reason to assume Apple cares little for the general computer buying public. They certainly do care.
The fact that Apple prices many of their systems higher than the competition is in some part driven by a desire to maintain a brand cache that low-cost versions would damage, however, with The low-end 13" MB & MBP and iMac generating much of Apple's computer sales it is quite evident Apple is targeting a wider audience.
Product placement and high profile users are good to create brand awareness, but it is Apple's reputation as a reliable provider of easy to use consumer products that provide a very positive user experience that is most important.
The frustration that some Apple users feel with regard to paying premium prices for lower specs in order to keep using the brand they prefer is not "silly". They are certainly entitled to express that opinion (even if it's futile). Apple makes a lot of money from people who value their products over the other choices in the market. If some of us want a bit more for our dollars we can verbalize our dissatisfaction and/or buy the least expensive Mac capable of performing the tasks we need.
Even so, I'm fairly certain Apple is not concerned with our vocal minority. But we should be able to express that displeasure without being called "silly" or any other disparaging remark.
Cheers,
I do 3D graphics and get by just fine. At times, I even get by with a 3 and a half year old laptop sporting an X1600 GPU. If you know your 3D software, there are ways and means to work with what you have.
The new GPU's are pretty good for 3D graphics in my opinion and The Mac has become a stronger platform for 3D since the switch to Intel.
I also believe that the new GPU's will be fine for most casual gamers. It's only folks who want to crank up their settings and run at native resolution that are whining and you'll never make folks like that happy anyway, so why bother trying? Even if there was a top of the line GPU available now, it's only a matter of time before some game like maybe Crysis 2 renders everything obsolete and we're back to the whining again.
http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/performance.html
Nope...Apple isn't trying to target gamers at all...
Nope...Apple isn't trying to target gamers at all...
In general I feel like Apple's "Pro" line up seems less and less real world pro with each release. Removing express card slots for an SD card reader. Dumping FW400. Minimal USB and FW800 availability. Don't try using more than 2 devices that do not have their own power source because you'll be sadly disappointed when they don't work. And yes subpar graphics cards...
So, HP, Dell, Sony, Asus etc. all companies that make FAR LESS profits than Apple, can afford to do this "R&D" months before Apple? Apple is one of the biggest and certainly most profitable companies in the entire world. And you are claiming they can't it done because of high R&D costs? That's basically like saying Apple has neither the brains, nor means to do this work.
The arguement Apple doesnt care about games is so flawed anyways. They have tried several times in the past to become serious game machines and failed horribly.
Halo was a Mac game originally then Bill Gates laughed his way to the bank and that ended Apples attempt to get serious.
The fact is and people like to ignore it is Mobile GPUS exist that outperform the 330M while using less power and generating less heat.
The 330M was picked because it is an antique that boosts the Apple tax greatly
Yeah, I also seem to remember a couple keynotes ago Steve mentioning something about trying to make gamers or at least game manufacturers happier.
Seems to be a uniquely American expression.
The Oxford dictionary already recognizes could care less as an American colloquialism. Many people, however, regard it as incorrect since it makes no logical sense (if you could care less it means that you care at least a bit).
See link for more detailed info.
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ico1.htm
Good luck getting anyone to stop using it.
Cheers,
I went along with your post up to this point, when you pulled 50,000 out of thin air.
There's probably that many people, if not many more, just playing Counter Strike right now. There are millions of Steam accounts, one of which is mine, and I'm sure I'm not the only Steam account holder here.
I'm not saying Apple should or ever will cater to gamers, nor should gamers expect Apple to provide for them, but I hope Apple have a better grasp of the numbers than you do.
Seems to be a uniquely American expression.
The Oxford dictionary already recognizes could care less as an American colloquialism. Many people, however, regard it as incorrect since it makes no logical sense (if you could care less it means that you care at least a bit).
See link for more detailed info.
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ico1.htm
Good luck getting anyone to stop using it.
Cheers,
Thanks for seeing my pedantic and then raising me
Regarding getting anyone to stop it, I know I have a mountain to climb. But I have logic on my side, that counts for something right? Oh, wait.
Thanks for seeing my pedantic and then raising me
Regarding getting anyone to stop it, I know I have a mountain to climb. But I have logic on my side, that counts for something right? Oh, wait.
I could care less...
I didn't call you silly. I called the thread silly. Stop personalizing neuter remarks about a subject of discussion rather than an individual. You're emotionally charging something that isn't emotional.
Second, if there are such studios; name them. I haven't been to any.
And I don't mean Unix/Linux workstations for Flames etc... I mean any place that uses Windows.
TV network back end operations are NOT creative, that's distribution / operations. Not the same.
Finally, I at no point said Apple does not care about the general public. I in fact emphasized they cared about two sets; creators and consumers, and honestly they've over-cared for consumers with the iPad release which delayed the MBPs til now. So I don't see what you're criticizing me for, we're not talking about low end MacBooks and your comments regarding that just further support my argument and pretty much everything I've said, especially the Apple split between creator/consumer. You've pretty much failed to point out anywhere specifically where I'm wrong... If you want to make an argument that their popularity is based on ease of use, I can accept that that goes into into it, but in essence that's not a huge part of Apple's larger brand identity. Walking away from the Mac vs PC campaign is evidence of this departure, but I must point out their campaign was at its fundamental universal base, about being cool, and not about ease of use / capability reliability, these were propositional benefits, not the overarching brand motif.
Anyway, this is more academic. Yes, they target the masses; yes they do it with their Macbooks iPhones iPads, I said this previously. They are able to do this effectively because of their creative class and trendsetter dominance. Therefore in their professional products they focus on keeping that set happy, even if it means neglecting super techy gadget geeks or embedded hardware engineers.
That is what Apple is. I see no reason to bitch about a graphics card on a laptop that doesn't have the guns to really let loose in 3d to begin with.
And elitist puffery? Please, I've kept this pretty merit based and logical. I've seen pundits make better insults about Obama and elitism. Nothing wrong with being elite — and I fail to see where I'm puffing. Argue with points, not rhetoric.
Thanks for seeing my pedantic and then raising me
Regarding getting anyone to stop it, I know I have a mountain to climb. But I have logic on my side, that counts for something right? Oh, wait.
Strictly speaking, "could care less" is nearly always precisely true -- it is almost always the case that you could care less. Since this is so incredibly obvious, stating it invokes the Gricean Maxims and implies to the reader that there was some doubt as to whether or not you could care less. Since normally there wouldn't be (anything you can be bothered to put into words presumably has some significance), this becomes "damning with faint praise" and is indeed an idiomatically correct way to indicate unconcern.
It's like saying "I guess it wouldn't kill me." Since normally people don't die very much, saying that you think something wouldn't kill you implies that you consider it very unpleasant.
If there are so few Mac gamers, why is WoW out for Mac? They'd have to be selling hundreds of thousands of copies to justify that... Oh, I guess they are. So are a bunch of other MMOs.
If the question is "how many gamers are there on Mac, and are they a market", and my choices are "Some Guy On The Internet" vs. "Valve and Blizzard"... I'm gonna bet that Valve and Blizzard have a clue.
(And yes, I have a Steam account, and I'm looking forward to being able to get stuff on Mac. I haven't used that account in probably 3 years... Because I got sick of dealing with Windows.)
Given the trend of lackluster nVidia solutions compared to their ATI counterparts and the miraculous resurrection of the MCP89 (GeForce 320M), I have to agree.