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The 2015-2016 Football Thread
- Thread starter Lord Blackadder
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That goes without saying - but also for every single coach there is on this planet. Doing good with a mid table team doesn't mean one has to win the title to be a good manager. Messi will eventually never win the WC - doesn't mean it'd be outrageous to think him of as the best player there ever was (for example). Beckenbauer won the WC as a manager - Cruyff didn't. Who is the better coach? The one with the title or the one that revolutionized the whole system for generations to come. (Isn't a question, Beckenbauer himself answered that question - and in that case I even trust him telling the truth).
agree there .. Cruyff sure is the better club coach... in the end it were his squads in the 90ties at Barca who made me follow the club closely.
Another good example would be Jupp Heynckes: from the same generation as Beckenbauer and thus has won the World Cup and the European Championship, yet won the Championsleague with 2 different squads, which i think is also rather uncommon.
only 5 Managers have won 2 CL with different squads so so far: Heynckes, Ancelotti, Mourinho, Hitzfeld and Happel and from those 5 only Heynckes wo the world cup and euro. (mourihno and hitzfeld both weren't really special players themselves)
Happel and Ancelotti both won 3rd places at world cups
Ernst Happel is also a great example for strong players from smaller countries which simply never had the chance to shine in the big tournaments or on the european stage: For most of his Defensive playing career he played for Rapid Wien and to boot just right after the War when the situation for Football in Austria was difficult. And yet he managed to be part of the Austrian World Cup squad 1954 which made it to 3rd place behind the german surprise team and the hungarian immortals of the 50ties.
As a coach he led the Netherlands into the final 1978 and also won 2 european cups & 2 times uefa cup runner ups, and 8 championships in 4 different countries
i think it can be difficult to assess the great player -> great coach discussion because many great coaches usually were defenders or perhaps defensive midfielders. Just think of Trappatoni: he won european cups as player and as manager.
i think a clear correlation is there .. apart of Cruyff how many really world class strikers then turned into superb managers ?... i think Alfredo di Stefano did win 2 championships in argentina and one in spain
Others offensive players might have had a shot but didn't quite get it right:
Oleg Blochin brought the Ukraine in the quarter Finals once but managing clubs isn't quite his domain.
...
and yet a rather surprising close call:
Felix Magath: 2 times world cup runner up, 1x european championship, 1xeuropean cup, 1xueafa cup
and as a manager championships with 2 different squads.
(our best 3 strikers in Austria of the last 30 years Krankl, Polster and Vastic all have rather pitiful managing careers as well, all 3 were heralded as saviors just like Zidane at their clubs... i fear for the worst)
But it's not just about money, and it's not just about the manager.
Wenger always seems to get that CL place and while he does spend money, it pails in comparison when compared with Chelsea, Man U, Man City and even Spurs.
As for money, well it certainly doesn't guarantee success. While City have bought the odd PL title they've generally been the group's whipping boys in the CL, and neither Moyes or LvG have done great considering the amount of £££ that's been spent on players recently. But it's nothing new, Leeds spent WAY beyond their means in the hope of becoming a PL and European force under O'Leary, but fell flat, and still haven't turned things around, over a decade later
My scepticism regarding Guardiola is that he's always managed the best team in the league, and had more than enough resources to improve on that. Now, as I've highlighted, having both the players and the resources does take skill to manage, I think when he moves to the PL, it will be his biggest test yet
The good: Liverpool win and get a clean sheet.
The bad: Liverpool are now officially in an injury crisis, and the team still struggles mightily to score.
That's a good point - out of all the player on the pitch, the striker's position require the most instinctive skill. So their skill set is probably the least well suited for management. Positions that require reading the game - such as center back or defensive/center/creative midfielder - are more likely to produce good strategists than positions that demand mostly pace or finishing skills (the kind of stuff you can't teach). A player like Xavi or Xabi Alonso is more likely to become a good manager than a Luis Suarez or Gareth Bale because of the way that are already reading the game as players.
BUT Man City and Man Utd are still in the stop four. Money alone might not win you a tittle, but - barring flagrant mismanagement - it does all but guarantee that you will be in the running and probably in the CL. Money is a wonderful crutch to lean on when everything else is going sour. Most clubs don't have that luxury.
Arsenal spend less than the other teams at the very top, but still more than most AND they have an "X-factor" manager in Wenger (laugh if you like, but it's true).
I agree that England should prove his greatest challenge. In Spain he was at home, surrounded by his own footballing family and led one of the best squads the game has ever produced. In Germany he took over a team very nearly as good as Barca and even more dominant in its own league. In England he will have multiple serious rivals and perhaps the greatest expectations ever placed on him yet.
The bad: Liverpool are now officially in an injury crisis, and the team still struggles mightily to score.
That's a good point - out of all the player on the pitch, the striker's position require the most instinctive skill. So their skill set is probably the least well suited for management. Positions that require reading the game - such as center back or defensive/center/creative midfielder - are more likely to produce good strategists than positions that demand mostly pace or finishing skills (the kind of stuff you can't teach). A player like Xavi or Xabi Alonso is more likely to become a good manager than a Luis Suarez or Gareth Bale because of the way that are already reading the game as players.
BUT Man City and Man Utd are still in the stop four. Money alone might not win you a tittle, but - barring flagrant mismanagement - it does all but guarantee that you will be in the running and probably in the CL. Money is a wonderful crutch to lean on when everything else is going sour. Most clubs don't have that luxury.
Arsenal spend less than the other teams at the very top, but still more than most AND they have an "X-factor" manager in Wenger (laugh if you like, but it's true).
I agree that England should prove his greatest challenge. In Spain he was at home, surrounded by his own footballing family and led one of the best squads the game has ever produced. In Germany he took over a team very nearly as good as Barca and even more dominant in its own league. In England he will have multiple serious rivals and perhaps the greatest expectations ever placed on him yet.
The good: You've just signed a midfielder which should alleviate your injury crisis
The bad: You've just loaned him back to the club you bought him from
Now, I could understand that comment coming from a disillusion ManU fan
But come on!
Now, I could understand that comment coming from a disillusion ManU fan
View attachment 609105
But come on!
Ha! you got me there, journalistic sloppiness on my part. Years of conditioning, I suppose. It's weird to see Chelsea as card own the table as they are, but it's even weirder to see Man Utd outside the top four.
Wow. When did I ever write something that intelligent? Must have been a failed quote.
The reaction from MUFC fans would be even more interesting.
Most interesting of all: the reaction from Sir Alex.
£64m spent on Mangala and Otamendi, meanwhile Spurs spent £12m on Alderwiereld and now have arguably the best CB partnership in the division. But early days i suppose.
Fun tidbit, Jose Mourinho has a total spend of over half a billion in the last decade. Pelle too.
Yaya Toure doesn't have the legs anymore, still brilliant but leggy.
Fun tidbit, Jose Mourinho has a total spend of over half a billion in the last decade. Pelle too.
Yaya Toure doesn't have the legs anymore, still brilliant but leggy.
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Man City should have been able to put more than one goal past a generally very leaky Everton. But if we've learned anything this season, it is that any club can beat any other club on any given day in the Premier League. It's completely unpredictable.
Benitez is not the most media- friendly guy, but I think he gets a little underrated as a result. He has won something at every club he's been at for the last 20+ years. He might not be at the level of the most elite managers, but he's no mug either. Real and Benitez were a real mismatch though.
Benitez is not the most media- friendly guy, but I think he gets a little underrated as a result. He has won something at every club he's been at for the last 20+ years. He might not be at the level of the most elite managers, but he's no mug either. Real and Benitez were a real mismatch though.
Sorry to say LB, but Klopp got infamous with his injuries in Dotmund. I never took it serious and thought about it as mostly bad luck, but strange to see that this continues with Liverpool while being mostly vanished at Dortmund since Tuchel took over (great guy btw) - at least muscle related injuries.
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Turgid stuff from United as usual. The only difference was that United won.
Anyone hoping for LvG to quit/be fired based on the performances will be disappointed because at the end of the day, United won - simple as. The board wouldn't care about how United win, as long as they hear that the team won.
Short term, United won't have any issues with the sponsors but if this turgid stuff gets doled out every game for a few seasons more, then the brand value of United will go down and United won't be an attractive proposition for a lot of people.
Anyone hoping for LvG to quit/be fired based on the performances will be disappointed because at the end of the day, United won - simple as. The board wouldn't care about how United win, as long as they hear that the team won.
Short term, United won't have any issues with the sponsors but if this turgid stuff gets doled out every game for a few seasons more, then the brand value of United will go down and United won't be an attractive proposition for a lot of people.