The absolute WORST keyboard EVER

[Pangalactic]

Definitely agree.

The old Macs felt like they were made by engineers and then given to designers to look good.
The new ones feel like they are made by designers and are not given to engineers once for basic usability testing.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

They've (As in the entire electronics industry) have always made things thinner and smaller, why is there such gripe over this current level of thinness? Give it 10 years, and you'd think it was a brick compared to what will exist by then. No, nobody was complaining of the thickness before, but then again no one complained over the previous generation either. Making it lighter, thinner, smaller, is always the primary goal of any portable notebook computer, as they're designed to be portable. So anything that increases that goal is generally considered a win.

I don't believe the current one's are too thin, I think they've done a pretty amazing job of engineering something that powerful, whilst still shaving pretty considerable dimensions from the previous generation. There will always be certain issues in doing this, every mass produced product tends to suffer a single point of failure, this time seems to be the keyboard. But the alternative to all this is just to stick with the previous design, and then a lot of the same complainers just bemoan a lack of innovation. Would you really, honestly, not be on here screaming "I'm not buying an 8 year old design, Apple have lost all innovation under TC!" as I find it hard to believe.

Compromises are just that, sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't. But remember they target the masses, not the few. If you, or a group of people on a forum don't like something, remember there will be millions of others who enjoy it. So you can enjoy it with them or move on, or "Wait until 20XX...". Nostalgia is also a huge problem, people seem to feel the 2016+ design is the only time Apple have every released anything with a flaw; in truth all manufacturers do this, however Apple sell such high volume and receive such high coverage on any issues due to this.

Or ya know, start hundreds of threads to call out flaws, and go round in giant like-minded circles till the next generation.

I dunno, we're all allowed to rant I guess, these are the MacRanting forums after all!

 

[Erasmus]

They've (As in the entire electronics industry) have always made things thinner and smaller, why is there such gripe over this current level of thinness? Give it 10 years, and you'd think it was a brick compared to what will exist by then. No, nobody was complaining of the thickness before, but then again no one complained over the previous generation either. Making it lighter, thinner, smaller, is always the primary goal of any portable notebook computer, as they're designed to be portable. So anything that increases that goal is generally considered a win.

I don't believe the current one's are too thin, I think they've done a pretty amazing job of engineering something that powerful, whilst still shaving pretty considerable dimensions from the previous generation. There will always be certain issues in doing this, every mass produced product tends to suffer a single point of failure, this time seems to be the keyboard. But the alternative to all this is just to stick with the previous design, and then a lot of the same complainers just bemoan a lack of innovation. Would you really, honestly, not be on here screaming "I'm not buying an 8 year old design, Apple have lost all innovation under TC!" as I find it hard to believe.

Compromises are just that, sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't. But remember they target the masses, not the few. If you, or a group of people on a forum don't like something, remember there will be millions of others who enjoy it. So you can enjoy it with them or move on, or "Wait until 20XX...". Nostalgia is also a huge problem, people seem to feel the 2016+ design is the only time Apple have every released anything with a flaw; in truth all manufacturers do this, however Apple sell such high volume and receive such high coverage on any issues due to this.

Or ya know, start hundreds of threads to call out flaws, and go round in giant like-minded circles till the next generation.

I dunno, we're all allowed to rant I guess, these are the MacRanting forums after all!

Thinner and lighter is 'better', however most of that extra thinness and lightness comes from making trade-offs. The question should not be "Do you want a thinner and lighter MBP", it should be "Do you want a thinner and lighter MBP, or more powerful hardware, or longer battery life, or more compatibility with existing standards?"

I love my 2011 17" MBP and carry it with me almost everywhere (including my 2hr each way daily commute). So you can believe me when I say I would not be on here screaming about hating an 8-year old design. It weighs 3kg, and yes that's only marginally under the combined weight of carrying BOTH a 15" and a 13" 2017 MBP.

Would it be easier to carry around a lighter laptop? Yes, obviously. However, imagine both the computational power and how much battery Apple could put into this 3kg frame using 2018 hardware. I would rather carry 3kg of near-desktop performance with all-day battery than 1.8kg of distinctly notebook performance and not-quite-all-day battery.

Many people would rather the thinner and lighter machine, and that's totally understandable. And Apple have them covered with the MacBook. The perfect device for people who want a light computer (especially if they stick a second port on it).

I think it's also worth noting that the lightness of the current MBP is partially negated by the need to carry around dongles and adapters. I still find the fact that you cannot connect the single most common peripheral, a traditional USB flash drive, without using an adapter absolutely crazy.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I love my 17" MBP

I totally loved my 17" in 2004..
Man I wish they'd make another one now.

With modern design techniques and hardware, they could make it much more svelte and probably lighter than we think and still have it be a feature packed powerhouse - even with room for a great keyboard and more ports to make it a true pro oriented machine..

Sorry...I'll go back to bed as I am clearly dreaming now..

 

[smirking]

... because of the chronic keyboard issues.

How dare we do our homework prior to purchase.

Hey, I'm not your strawman. Was it fair to accuse me of suggesting that everyone should ignore the reports of keyboard issues and throw money down the endless pit in Cupertino, CA? Because that's not what I did. I said it's annoying that some of the people who are the loudest are the ones who have the least first hand experience with the products in question.

 

[Queen6]

Thinner and lighter is 'better', however most of that extra thinness and lightness comes from making trade-offs. The question should not be "Do you want a thinner and lighter MBP", it should be "Do you want a thinner and lighter MBP, or more powerful hardware, or longer battery life, or more compatibility with existing standards?"

I love my 17" MBP and carry it with me almost everywhere (including my 2hr each way daily commute). So you can believe me when I say I would not be on here screaming about hating an 8-year old design. It weighs 3kg, and yes that's only marginally under the combined weight of carrying BOTH a 15" and a 13" MBP.

Would it be easier to carry around a lighter laptop? Yes, obviously. However, imagine both the computational power and how much battery Apple could put into this 3kg frame using 2018 hardware. I would rather carry 3kg of near-desktop performance with all-day battery than 1.8kg of distinctly notebook performance and not-quite-all-day battery.

Many people would rather the thinner and lighter machine, and that's totally understandable. And Apple have them covered with the MacBook. The perfect device for people who want a light computer (especially if they stick a second port on it).

I think it's also worth noting that the lightness of the current MBP is partially negated by the need to carry around dongles and adapters. I still find the fact that you cannot connect the single most common peripheral, a traditional USB flash drive, without using an adapter absolutely crazy.

My new primary notebook is another 17" under 3Kg and puts many a desktop to shame. Today Apple just produces little more than trendy Ultrabook's with a good build quality and amusing price points. Yet Apple desperately wants that "Halo Effect" of being "Pro" which it's very, very far from being, unsurprisingly many now ridicule Apple for the same...

Sums up the situation.


Just a joke...

Q-6
[doublepost=1531200800][/doublepost]

I totally loved my 17" in 2004..
Man I wish they'd make another one now.

With modern design techniques and hardware, they could make it much more svelte and probably lighter than we think and still have it be a feature packed powerhouse - even with room for a great keyboard and more ports to make it a true pro oriented machine..

Sorry...I'll go back to bed as I am clearly dreaming now..

My newest W10 17" notebook does this, and this is where Apple needs to be, if it want's to be taken remotely seriously as a provider of prosumer/professional hardware, not just nice "shiny things" Said for a very long time Apple needs to deliver or quit the BS and stick with entertaining the kids...

Of course Tim can always bring back on the DJ's and Phil can entertain with evermore witty excuses of just exactly why Apple is totally incapable of serving it's professional audience in 2018...

Q-6

 

[Erasmus]

My new primary notebook is another 17" under 3Kg and puts many a desktop to shame. Today Apple just produces little more than trendy Ultrabook's with a good build quality and amusing price points. Yet Apple desperately wants that "Halo Effect" of being "Pro" which it's very, very far from being, unsurprisingly many now ridicule Apple for the same...

I assume your new laptop is the Gigabyte Aero 15X.

I swear, if Apple put that hardware in a 16"-17" frame with a 3840x2400px screen, I'd gladly drop AU$5,000 for a top spec 32GB, 1TB SSD model.

 

[Queen6]

I assume your new laptop is the Gigabyte Aero 15X.

I swear, if Apple put that hardware in a 16"-17" frame with a 3840x2400px screen, I'd gladly drop AU$5,000 for a top spec 32GB, 1TB SSD model.

17.3" Asus GL703GS - i7 8750H, GTX 1070, 32gB @ 2666, NVMe SSD & SATA SSHD. Apple needs much better spec, lower pricing and far less greed...

Q-6

 

[throAU]

I assume your new laptop is the Gigabyte Aero 15X.

I swear, if Apple put that hardware in a 16"-17" frame with a 3840x2400px screen, I'd gladly drop AU$5,000 for a top spec 32GB, 1TB SSD model.

For that hardware, Apple will want $8k AU.

Seriously, for a while there the Apple hardware tax wasn't that bad, if it even existed. But retina class screens aren't expensive or rare any more. They screwed up the keyboard. PC trackpads have come a long way.

Whilst apple hardware* has gone backwards vs. the market since 2012, the PC hardware market has not.



edit:
By hardware i mean the spec inside the box AND the quality of the peripherals and finishings on the actual box.

 

[prism]

That Dave Lee video is spot on!!

 

[throAU]

Hey, I'm not your strawman. Was it fair to accuse me of suggesting that everyone should ignore the reports of keyboard issues and throw money down the endless pit in Cupertino, CA? Because that's not what I did. I said it's annoying that some of the people who are the loudest are the ones who have the least first hand experience with the products in question.

You are inferring that non-owners are unable to have an opinion, despite perhaps having far more contact with actual impacted machines than many owners.

 

[Erasmus]

For that hardware, Apple will want $8k AU.

Seriously, for a while there the Apple hardware tax wasn't that bad, if it even existed.

Yes, well now I think about it, we have Australia's tax (10%), plus the completely separate 'Australia Tax' (a phantom and completely arbitrary additional 10+%), plus the Apple Tax (exorbitant). So yeah, probably AU$8k for something that should be closer to AU$4k.

 

[smirking]

You are inferring that non-owners are unable to have an opinion, despite perhaps having far more contact with actual impacted machines than many owners.

That's not what I said... ah, why do I even bother. Yeah, sure. If that's what you think I said. I'm not going to contest it.

 

[Howard1st]

It's really terrible.

 

[throAU]

They've (As in the entire electronics industry) have always made things thinner and smaller, why is there such gripe over this current level of thinness?

Because it is interfering with functionality.

I don’t care whether the machine is 0.25” thinner when the keyboard doesn’t actually work.
I don’t care if the machine is 0.25” thinner when it thermal throttles.
I don’t care if the machine is 0.25” thinner when it can not actually contain a decently powerful GPU for the supposed professional market it is intended to serve.


Thinner and lighter is just find and dandy. So long as the machine still does the job it is intended for. These new machines are a laughing stock.

It doesn’t matter how thin the machine is when it doesn’t do the job. See Queen6’s benchmarks above.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Because it is interfering with functionality.

I don’t care whether the machine is 0.25” thinner when the keyboard doesn’t actually work.
I don’t care if the machine is 0.25” thinner when it thermal throttles.
I don’t care if the machine is 0.25” thinner when it can not actually contain a decently powerful GPU for the supposed professional market it is intended to serve.


Thinner and lighter is just find and dandy. So long as the machine still does the job it is intended for. These new machines are a laughing stock.

It doesn’t matter how thin the machine is when it doesn’t do the job. See Queen6’s benchmarks above.

What am I looking at exactly? From what I can see, it's a comparison between a just released CPU and a year old one, and using software that is optimized for one particular platform. Seems like a pointless comparison, it's always going to lean in favor of one system.

Another question though, have Apple ever put the very latest and most powerful components available into their portables? A lot of people make it sound like they used to be great, and now since 2015 all of a sudden are using terrible hardware. Windows makers update their systems a lot more regular, as it's a lot more of a competitive market. They're lucky to sell a hundred thousand units before consumers get bored or want more so they keep releasing new stuff. I don't think you can compare Apples to apples, you buy a machine to do a particular purpose, if it doesn't perform that purpose then you buy a different one. It's a computer, a tool, a machine, there's not really any OS specific software these days so there's no need to suffer with a lesser powerful computer if you need more just because it's Apple?

 

[niploteksi]

Sometimes it's easy to forget how out of date the old 2015 Macbook pro was when the 2016 model was released.

All in all I'm quite happy with my MacBook Pro, but I agree with the OP that the keyboard has been a complete joke. I think my happiness stems out of it obviously running Mac OS. The Track pad is fantastic (I almost never connect a mouse now) and it's easy to carry around. Packs just enough punch to be able to do do some audio work on the move.

Then again, it's definitely not a desktop replacement. The keyboard hurts your fingers after a day of typing. It's incredible annoying when some keys suddenly stops working properly. The Touch Bar is way too narrow. The popping sound when the chassis heat up is annoying.

In my opinion Apple dropped the ball on this one. It's just an in-betweener. It's not a typewriter and it's not a power house, but frustratingly close to being a really nice machine. But come on... I paid over 3k euro for this machine. I'm with the OP... it's not too much to ask for a decent keyboard

 

[maflynn]

Sometimes it's easy to forget how out of date the old 2015 Macbook pro was when the 2016 model was released.

For the right price, I think the 2015 model can make a lot of sense. That price imo isn't what apple is charging, but a nicely priced used 2015 can be found. My 2012 rMBP still runs very well, so I can only imagine the 2015 being even better. Personally, if I'm spending a lot of money, I'd want the latest and greatest, so I'm having a difficult time justifying the decision to get a 2015 model. There's so many other great computers that don't have the issues that the MBP has, that I'd rather get one of those then a 2015 model. For instance, I got the Razer 15", its a fantastic machine, well made, solid, nice design. The only reason (or least the major reason) for my returning it, is to buy me time. I'm giving Apple the benefit of the doubt in that the 2018 model will have a better keyboard. If not, I'm pretty sure, I'll be re-buying the Razer

 

[theluggage]

Well, did you ever experience the Sinclair ZX81 or Atari 400, with their membrane keyboards?

Well, yes, but they were firmly in the "It comes with a keyboard? Luxury! When I were a lad we had to input data in binary on the front panel!" category. Personally, I had an OSI Superboard, then a BBC Micro which cost a bit more, but both had rather nice full-travel mechanical keyboards made from discrete key switches of the sort you'd pay a premium for these days.

Anyway, "Worst. Keyboard. Ever." has to be the IBM PC Junior:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PCjr#"One_of_the_biggest_flops_in_the_history_of_computing" (have fun reading the quotes)

...although Apple seem to have finally succeeded in their ambition to outdo IBM. At least IBM didn't adopt it across all of their flagship products...

However, I never had the horror of using a PC Jr so I'd have to go with the Commodore PET 2001 (not the later ones which had decent keyboards).

The Atari 400 launched in '79 at nearly US$550, that'd be about $1900 today

So what? You omitted to mention that, in 1979, an Apple II cost $1195 - over $4000 today. Relative to contemporary computers the Atari was an economy model, and, as for the ZX80/ZX81/Spectrum, they were incredibly cheap - their only price-comparable competition tended to come with hex keypads and calculator displays...
[doublepost=1531223595][/doublepost]

Sometimes it's easy to forget how out of date the old 2015 Macbook pro was when the 2016 model was released.

...and all Apple had to do to make it not out of date was update the CPU and GPU, replace the two TB2 ports with TB3 and offer a Space Grey option to distract those who buy $3000 computers based on cosmetics alone.

Instead, they through a classic design under the bus, along with what had been the best low-profile keyboard in the business.

 

[Lennyvalentin]

but then again no one complained over the previous generation either.

Well honestly, yes, people did complain. Previous gen dropped the optical drive and the ethernet jack, so there were indeed complaints. Quite a lot of them even.

You omitted to mention that, in 1979, an Apple II cost $1195 - over $4000 today.

Well, I also omitted the number of Volkswagen beetles sold in '79, or the weight of an African bull elephant - because it wasn't actually part of the discussion. Did Apple II:s come with membrane keyboards? Not to my knowledge at least, but then again I'm no expert on old Apple computers either.

 

[theluggage]

Well, I also omitted the number of Volkswagen beetles sold in '79, or the weight of an African bull elephant it wasn't actually part of the discussion.

Hmm.
1979 cost of an Atari 400 with cheap rubbish membrane keyboard
vs.
1979 cost of an Apple II with quite good mechanical keyboard (clue: 2x the price of the Atari)
vs.
1979 sales figures for a VW Beetle

Two of these things are relevant to a discussion about old computers with rubbish keyboards. Can you spot the odd one out?

Previous gen dropped the optical drive and the ethernet jack, so there were indeed complaints. Quite a lot of them even.

...but somehow, I don't recall people still complaining about the 2012 removal of ethernet/optical in 2014. Yet, here we are in 2018 and the only reason we're not still complaining about dongles, soldered-in SSDs or reduced battery capacity is that those are kinda moot if the keyboard has a 10%/year failure rate, the replacement program leaves you computer-less for a week and there's no hint that the replacement actually cures the fault.

 

[Painter2002]

...and all Apple had to do to make it not out of date was update the CPU and GPU, replace the two TB2 ports with TB3 and offer a Space Grey option to distract those who buy $3000 computers based on cosmetics alone.

Instead, they through a classic design under the bus, along with what had been the best low-profile keyboard in the business.

Ah yes, but see if they had done that then Apple would’ve been criticized by so many people for continuing to use an old design and for no longer being innovative.

I don’t claim to be an Apple fanboy, but you have to admit that with the expectations their client base has, they are in a real pickle of a place. On the hand they’ll be criticized for not giving a new design refresh every so many years, and on the other they dare make changes (which invariably means there are design growing pains) and they get blasted for a “mistake” in design.

I personally like the keyboard on my 2017 MBP (yes I use it everyday with no issues), but I recognize that there are plenty of bad keyboards on this model and a risk you take buying this machine. I am sure reliability will be a focus on future iterations of this design, because surely Apple won’t want their new releases to cost them this much money in free repairs over the next 4-8 years

 

[smirking]

Anyway, "Worst. Keyboard. Ever." has to be the IBM PC Junior... However, I never had the horror of using a PC Jr so I'd have to go with the Commodore PET 2001 (not the later ones which had decent keyboards).

I spent a summer typing in BASIC programs into an IBM PC Jr when I was a lil kid so I must have had experience with the PC Jr. keyboard. It was probably bad, but not so bad that I remember it. It was too long ago. The Atari 400 on the other hand, was so bad that I still remember how awful it was. I wanted an Atari computer so bad as a kid... but not the Atari 400 unless it was the only option I had. Even then, I knew I didn't want a computer that seemingly shared a keyboard design with a Speak and Spell toy. Man, that 400 keyboard was awful.
[doublepost=1531250873][/doublepost]

I'm giving Apple the benefit of the doubt in that the 2018 model will have a better keyboard. If not, I'm pretty sure, I'll be re-buying the Razer

It seems that what we used to say about Microsoft sort of now applies to Apple in some cases. The old Microsoft could be counted on for completely blowing the first attempt at anything, doing mediocre in trying to atone for it, and then dominate the market on the third try.

Well, let's hope the third time's a charm.

 

[Gilligan's last elephant]

Very different only when looking back... Old-style computers were actually very very expensive at the time by and large; not so much the ZX81 because it was designed to be offered at a rock bottom price, but other 8/16-bit computers were quite costly. Not to mention PCs; ugh lol.

The Atari 400 launched in '79 at nearly US$550, that'd be about $1900 today, according to an inflation calculator I found on the interwebs. That's more than what Apple charges for all its baseline 13" models; the top of the range 3.1GHz Core i5 offering with 8GB RAM, touchbar and 256GB SSD is a hundred bucks cheaper than the 1.8MHz MOS 6502 CPU, 8kB RAM and no storage Atari from nearly 40 years ago.

The much simpler and more primitive ZX81 launched in '81 in the U.S. it seems, costing a doghair under $150. That'd be $415 today, so not exactly Macbook territory. Of course, it only had 1kB RAM, monochrome low-res graphics, and as I recall, running code on the CPU also blanked out the display.

And by comparison, what did an Apple computer cost in 1979?

 

[lec0rsaire]

These keyboards are the greatest of all time. Anyone who experiences issues just doesn’t practice good hygiene with their products. Don’t eat near the machine and wipe the keyboard once in a while. 18 months and not a single issue for me.