The absolute WORST keyboard EVER

[maflynn]

These keyboards are the greatest of all time. Anyone who experiences issues just doesn’t practice good hygiene with their products. Don’t eat near the machine and wipe the keyboard once in a while. 18 months and not a single issue for me.

If that was the case apple would not have offered a repair program

Too many times people blame the customer in their zeal to defend apple. Given that Renee Ritchie of iMore who is an uber fan of apple incurred key failure and admits its a design issue speaks volumes.

 

[Lennyvalentin]

Two of these things are relevant to a discussion about old computers with rubbish keyboards. Can you spot the odd one out?

Since this is a thread about bad keyboards there's actually two odd ones out. But I think you know that already and are just arguing for the sake of it, which I find extremely boring and uninteresting.

 

[smirking]

These keyboards are the greatest of all time.

I can’t say I share your effusive opinion, but nonetheless I salute your optimism, sir.

 

[Erasmus]

What am I looking at exactly? From what I can see, it's a comparison between a just released CPU and a year old one, and using software that is optimized for one particular platform. Seems like a pointless comparison, it's always going to lean in favor of one system.

Its actually a comparison between a mobile GPU that is well over a year old (AMD 560), another mobile GPU which is also well over a year old (NVIDIA 1070), and a desktop GPU which is almost a year old (AMD Vega 56). The point is that some companies can put GPUs in thin and light notebooks which are more powerful than what's in the iMac Pro, while still keeping fantastic battery life. Apple refuses to do the same. Your point about optimised software is a straw man, and not relevant.

Another question though, have Apple ever put the very latest and most powerful components available into their portables? A lot of people make it sound like they used to be great, and now since 2015 all of a sudden are using terrible hardware.

Up until 2016, Apple's obsession with thin and light was annoying. In 2016, it became absurd when tangible functionality (still commonly used ports) and reliability (new keyboard) were sacrificed.

It's a computer, a tool, a machine, there's not really any OS specific software these days so there's no need to suffer with a lesser powerful computer if you need more just because it's Apple?

OSX and Windows 10 are not comparable. I use both every day, and W10 is terrible in comparison. Also, it's easy to put W10 on a Mac, but putting OSX on a Windows PC is terrible (I tried it once, not worth it). Also, trackpads and screens of Windows PCs are nowhere near as good as on a Mac. So the question is do we buy a Mac, but always be disappointed with the internal hardware and ports, or do we buy a PC and be disappointed with the OS, trackpad and screen? Considering the cost of the Mac, we shouldn't have to make sacrifices. So instead, I continue using my broken 2011 MBP hoping Apple at least partially back-track, and release something decent, instead of the next generation of MacBook/Netbook Phantom-Pros.

 

[hajime]

Just a note to express my absolute frustration with my 2016 mbp which has what is arguably the absolute WORST keyboard I have ever typed on, and believe me, I have experienced more than a few keyboards over the last 30 odd years.
...and now the friggin space bar doesn't click anymore and more than occasionally doesn't record my input, this is really unacceptable, complete trash. I know that now they offer to repair it for free after I guess realizing how bad it is but for that to happen they might have to keep your laptop for a week or more, are you kidding me??? I am unfortunately tied into the Apple ecosystem, im saying this because if it wasn't the case I would switch to something else in a heartbeat.
Sorry, I just had to vent about this!

TC and all those involved in the making of those two rubbish keyboards have insulted us the long-term customers and the Apple brand.

 

[theluggage]

Ah yes, but see if they had done that then Apple would’ve been criticized by so many people for continuing to use an old design and for no longer being innovative.

Nothing like the sort of sustained criticism they’re getting for the current “form over function” mess. If they wanted innovation they could have poured it into a “13 inch MacBook” aimed at people who *did* want to sacrifice power and versatility for size and weight. They have sort-of done that in the non-tb model which, apart from the keyboard, could be redeemed by deleting “pro” from the label.

but I recognize that there are plenty of bad keyboards on this model and a risk you take buying this machine.

Except it looks like there are no “bad keyboards” or “good keyboards” - they all have a defective design that makes them ultra-sensitive to dust (or, possibly, heat) compounded by a non-repairable design where you can’t even remove the key caps without severe risk of breaking them. They’re all ticking time-bombs, depending on the environment you use them in.

 

[KUKitch]

My new primary notebook is another 17" under 3Kg and puts many a desktop to shame. Today Apple just produces little more than trendy Ultrabook's with a good build quality and amusing price points. Yet Apple desperately wants that "Halo Effect" of being "Pro" which it's very, very far from being, unsurprisingly many now ridicule Apple for the same...

Sums up the situation.

View attachment 769851
Just a joke...

Q-6
[doublepost=1531200800][/doublepost]


My newest W10 17" notebook does this, and this is where Apple needs to be, if it want's to be taken remotely seriously as a provider of prosumer/professional hardware, not just nice "shiny things" Said for a very long time Apple needs to deliver or quit the BS and stick with entertaining the kids...

View attachment 769854


View attachment 769855
Of course Tim can always bring back on the DJ's and Phil can entertain with evermore witty excuses of just exactly why Apple is totally incapable of serving it's professional audience in 2018...

Q-6

Sorry, so you're saying that your brand new, recently updated (I assume since the chips were released) system bought in 2018 with the latest chips on offer outperforms a system which was released a year ago and has 2 fewer cores and a GPU which is also less robust - and that's somehow an example of Apple not offering comparable hardware and overcharging for what they offer?

They haven't released an update in 2018 as far as I'm aware, I'm assuming it would be reasonable to compare those once that is the case... I'm hoping they drop the hexacore option in the 15" and the quad in the 13", but certainly that remains to be seen. I'd be more curious to see a comparison between the 2017 MBP and, you know, the comparable version that was offered at the same time last year - as far as I remember, the MBP was generally pretty competitive with everything on offer when it came out (but I don't have any hard data to hand on that). Not to mention, big shock that a 15" laptop doesn't have the same performance level as a 17" - that just doesn't seem like a fair comparison either, isn't that part of the reason for the offerings of different sizes, different power levels and portability needs? There's a fairly large difference between a 2kg laptop and a 3kg laptop - both in weight and what can be crammed inside (I'd expect since I'm no engineer)...

It's fine to knock the keyboards, that does seem to be a totally legitimate issue with the 2016/17 systems - but performance/price (while I will say the touch bar tax is fair) seems to still be generally reasonable, it's not like they should drop/have ever dropped prices on the current offerings before new versions come out just because it's been a year and competitors have newer hardware available.

 

[Acronyc]

Yes, me. Pre-ordered 2016 MacBook Pro 15" Touchbar model. Have been using the built-in keyboard probably 50 hours a week since I bought it. No keyboard problems.

Remember the repair rate of the keyboards is reported to be about 12%. Reading these forums, you would think it is was 90%.

Me as well. I have about 15-20 hours per week on the internal keyboard on my 2016 MBP non-touchbar which I have been using since early November 2016. During the first year I was using it more, probably about 25-30 hours per week. I have had not one problem with the keyboard. In fact, I have not had any issues at all with this MBP. Zero. I have had fewer problems with it than I had with my 2012 15" rMBP (ghosting then bad battery = one screen replacement and two machine replacements).

 

[Erasmus]

Sorry, so you're saying that your brand new, recently updated (I assume since the chips were released) system bought in 2018 with the latest chips on offer outperforms a system which was released a year ago and has 2 fewer cores and a GPU which is also less robust - and that's somehow an example of Apple not offering comparable hardware and overcharging for what they offer?

They haven't released an update in 2018 as far as I'm aware, I'm assuming it would be reasonable to compare those once that is the case... I'm hoping they drop the hexacore option in the 15" and the quad in the 13", but certainly that remains to be seen. I'd be more curious to see a comparison between the 2017 MBP and, you know, the comparable version that was offered at the same time last year - as far as I remember, the MBP was generally pretty competitive with everything on offer when it came out (but I don't have any hard data to hand on that). Not to mention, big shock that a 15" laptop doesn't have the same performance level as a 17" - that just doesn't seem like a fair comparison either, isn't that part of the reason for the offerings of different sizes, different power levels and portability needs? There's a fairly large difference between a 2kg laptop and a 3kg laptop - both in weight and what can be crammed inside (I'd expect since I'm no engineer)...

It's fine to knock the keyboards, that does seem to be a totally legitimate issue with the 2016/17 systems - but performance/price (while I will say the touch bar tax is fair) seems to still be generally reasonable, it's not like they should drop/have ever dropped prices on the current offerings before new versions come out just because it's been a year and competitors have newer hardware available.

I would normally not be fair to compare a 2018 notebook to a 2017 model, however the fact that Apple still don't have a 2018 model MBP is precisely the point. Apple's price/performance has never been good, even when they are new. They have always used build quality, OS and aesthetics to justify the extra price. That's fine, but it only gets you so much. The undeniable fact is that right now, the price/perf of the current, newest MBPs is terrible.

Again, even when they are new, MBPs have never had powerful GPUs, but have usually been pretty good on the CPU side. We can hope that the 13 and 15 inch will get 4 and 6 core CPUs respectively this year, but they are still only catching up to the competition there.

Same as before, it is not usually fair to compare a 15" and 17" notebook, however if one is in the market for a powerful notebook with a big screen, Apple doesn't offer a 17" anymore. Instead, if we want a Mac (which we do, obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be here) we have to settle for 15". That doesn't mean comparisons can then only be made with other 15" notebooks, although if they were, Apple's would still lose badly.

And as has been said multiple times here, I (and many others here) would rather a more powerful, heavier, bigger and thicker MBP than the continued trend of thinner and lighter, with resulting power and practicality sacrifices.

People who want thin and light above all else are still best served with the MacBook. There is no need to make the MBP ever more like a MacBook, they should have different target markets, and they should be kept distinct.

 

[maflynn]

and that's somehow an example of Apple not offering comparable hardware and overcharging for what they offer?

Yes, and that's the point of Dave 2D's video, he's an apple enthusiast, who is frustrated by apple on a number of fronts, one of which is their inability to roll out an update to the Mac line when most of Apple's competitor's have done so last April/May.

Why should I spend almost 3k on a machine that is not the most current chipset, when I can buy a coffee lake hex core processor, and superior video for 1,000 dollars less then what apple charges.

 

[KUKitch]

Yes, and that's the point of Dave 2D's video, he's an apple enthusiast, who is frustrated by apple on a number of fronts, one of which is their inability to roll out an update to the Mac line when most of Apple's competitor's have done so last April/May.

Why should I spend almost 3k on a machine that is not the most current chipset, when I can buy a coffee lake hex core processor, and superior video for 1,000 dollars less then what apple charges.

Sure, fair enough - but how often are they supposed to update the things? I would think that Dave 2D, and the rest of us generally have an idea when updates come out from Apple. They already do it every year generally (apart from the Mac Mini and Pro and Air of course, but I digress...) - around the summer/fall as well, right? We know it's coming... it's just not here yet and it's not like prices will change in the meantime.
[doublepost=1531309513][/doublepost]

I would normally not be fair to compare a 2018 notebook to a 2017 model, however the fact that Apple still don't have a 2018 model MBP is precisely the point. Apple's price/performance has never been good, even when they are new. They have always used build quality, OS and aesthetics to justify the extra price. That's fine, but it only gets you so much. The undeniable fact is that right now, the price/perf of the current, newest MBPs is terrible.

Again, even when they are new, MBPs have never had powerful GPUs, but have usually been pretty good on the CPU side. We can hope that the 13 and 15 inch will get 4 and 6 core CPUs respectively this year, but they are still only catching up to the competition there.

Same as before, it is not usually fair to compare a 15" and 17" notebook, however if one is in the market for a powerful notebook with a big screen, Apple doesn't offer a 17" anymore. Instead, if we want a Mac (which we do, obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be here) we have to settle for 15". That doesn't mean comparisons can then only be made with other 15" notebooks, although if they were, Apple's would still lose badly.

And as has been said multiple times here, I (and many others here) would rather a more powerful, heavier, bigger and thicker MBP than the continued trend of thinner and lighter, with resulting power and practicality sacrifices.

People who want thin and light above all else are still best served with the MacBook. There is no need to make the MBP ever more like a MacBook, they should have different target markets, and they should be kept distinct.

But again, that's because their release cycle seems to be shifted later in the year, right? I don't remember exactly, but late summer/fall seems to be when revisions are more likely for the MBP lines apart from minor bumps, in my mind (and that could certainly be inaccurate). As far as price/performance, I feel like it's generally been pretty good since the move to Intel and the whole Apple tax hasn't been the thing that it was at one point... but then would you say the price/performance was terrible for other 'newest' systems just prior to a refresh (which is where I assume we are presently)?

I guess for me, all these comparisons are moot until the refresh, at which point we can say it's a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad value proposition if they don't move to whatever gen chipsets the hexacore are (I'm guessing we won't get anything Max-Q, but perhaps mobile Vega?). Were I in the market, of course I wouldn't buy one now given the stage it's at because it's self-evident that the value isn't great in comparison to others which have refreshed.

 

[maflynn]

Sure, fair enough - but how often are they supposed to update the things? I would think that Dave 2D, and the rest of us generally have an idea when updates come out from Apple. They already do it every year generally (apart from the Mac Mini and Pro and Air of course, but I digress...) - around the summer/fall as well, right? We know it's coming... it's just not here yet and it's not like prices will change in the meantime.

I think its a one-two punch issue. First I believe its everyone's expectation to have a competing model to go against the Dells and Lenovo's of the world. That didn't happen, couple that with the bad press the keyboard has garnered and I believe you have a lot of desire to buy a laptop but an aversion to pick apple for those stated reasons. I'm literally in that situation, I want to buy a new MBP, but spending 3k today doesn't make sense for reasons that I don't need to regurgitate.

 

[ericwn]

TC and all those involved in the making of those two rubbish keyboards have insulted us the long-term customers and the Apple brand.

Maybe just speak for yourself.

 

[ericwn]

These keyboards are the greatest of all time. Anyone who experiences issues just doesn’t practice good hygiene with their products. Don’t eat near the machine and wipe the keyboard once in a while. 18 months and not a single issue for me.

Ya, everyone else is at fault but you have figured it out. Thanks for this great insight. That’s exactly why Apple came up with a repair program for this design.

 

[seadragon]

It's a computer, a tool, a machine, there's not really any OS specific software these days so there's no need to suffer with a lesser powerful computer if you need more just because it's Apple?

I respectfully disagree with this point. There are still plenty of OS specific apps out there. For example, I invested significant time and some cost learning Final Cut and Logic Pro. Moving to a different OS is not a viable option for me. Leaving the Apple ecosystem in general is not easy to do.

If we were talking just Windows PCs, then I would agree, just get a different machine (Dell, Lenovo, HP etc.) as there is a lot of options. Not so much for MacOS though.

 

[Donoban]

Just a note to express my absolute frustration with my 2016 mbp which has what is arguably the absolute WORST keyboard I have ever typed on, and believe me, I have experienced more than a few keyboards over the last 30 odd years.
...and now the friggin space bar doesn't click anymore and more than occasionally doesn't record my input, this is really unacceptable, complete trash. I know that now they offer to repair it for free after I guess realizing how bad it is but for that to happen they might have to keep your laptop for a week or more, are you kidding me??? I am unfortunately tied into the Apple ecosystem, im saying this because if it wasn't the case I would switch to something else in a heartbeat.
Sorry, I just had to vent about this!

OMG!

Dude, relax yourself.

Are you curing cancer?

Solving world hunger?

Just get it fixed and move on, no offence dude. You're stressing over nothing.

 

[Erasmus]

But again, that's because their release cycle seems to be shifted later in the year, right? I don't remember exactly, but late summer/fall seems to be when revisions are more likely for the MBP lines apart from minor bumps, in my mind (and that could certainly be inaccurate).

I wouldn't call what Apple does with its Mac hardware a "release cycle". They get updated when Apple wants them updated, and who knows why they choose when they choose except Apple? The May-July period seems popular for MBP updates, but there have been big updates earlier, and later. In the end, it really doesn't matter anyway, because whereas other manufacturers have had new hardware available for months, we are still waiting on Apple. When Apple finally do get around to releasing new MBPs, they will only be on parity to Windows PCs for maybe 6 months before Intel, AMD or NVIDIA release some new hardware, and MBPs are overtaken again.

As far as price/performance, I feel like it's generally been pretty good since the move to Intel and the whole Apple tax hasn't been the thing that it was at one point... but then would you say the price/performance was terrible for other 'newest' systems just prior to a refresh (which is where I assume we are presently)?

Just before a PC refresh, the price/perf of that old PC is still much better than the Mac, because the Mac is still using the same or worse components than the old, soon to be superseded PC, but still much more expensive. Also, PCs tend to reduce in price with time until the next update. Macs do not.

I guess for me, all these comparisons are moot until the refresh, at which point we can say it's a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad value proposition if they don't move to whatever gen chipsets the hexacore are (I'm guessing we won't get anything Max-Q, but perhaps mobile Vega?). Were I in the market, of course I wouldn't buy one now given the stage it's at because it's self-evident that the value isn't great in comparison to others which have refreshed.

It's reasonable to say wait for the update before making value propositions, however looking at previous iterations, it's not that hard to extrapolate what we're likely to get, unless Apple does an enormous about-face on their current trajectory. Other manufacturers have shown what can be done (like that Gigabyte Aero 15x), but this is not new. Apple have never put anywhere near the graphics performance in their notebooks as other companies manage to do, even while keeping thin and light frames, AND long battery life.

 

[Naimfan]

These keyboards are the greatest of all time. Anyone who experiences issues just doesn’t practice good hygiene with their products. Don’t eat near the machine and wipe the keyboard once in a while. 18 months and not a single issue for me.

That's an interesting theory. I hope you didn't hurt yourself coming up with it.

I had 2 2017 models fail within a week due to heat, with nary a crumb in sight. When returned, the Apple rep asked if it had actually been used, and I asked them to try to type the letter "b". They could not.

So spare us your absurd absolutes.

 

[KUKitch]

I think its a one-two punch issue. First I believe its everyone's expectation to have a competing model to go against the Dells and Lenovo's of the world. That didn't happen, couple that with the bad press the keyboard has garnered and I believe you have a lot of desire to buy a laptop but an aversion to pick apple for those stated reasons. I'm literally in that situation, I want to buy a new MBP, but spending 3k today doesn't make sense for reasons that I don't need to regurgitate.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you there - I guess I just struggle with the knocking them b/c the laptop isn't out yet, maybe? It's not like it isn't coming, and while it would be better if it was just here NOW - we're just stuck waiting for a few months... It absolutely doesn't make sense today to buy one, but I think that won't hold once the update hits (at least I hope so)!

I wouldn't call what Apple does with its Mac hardware a "release cycle". They get updated when Apple wants them updated, and who knows why they choose when they choose except Apple? The May-July period seems popular for MBP updates, but there have been big updates earlier, and later. In the end, it really doesn't matter anyway, because whereas other manufacturers have had new hardware available for months, we are still waiting on Apple. When Apple finally do get around to releasing new MBPs, they will only be on parity to Windows PCs for maybe 6 months before Intel, AMD or NVIDIA release some new hardware, and MBPs are overtaken again.


Just before a PC refresh, the price/perf of that old PC is still much better than the Mac, because the Mac is still using the same or worse components than the old, soon to be superseded PC, but still much more expensive. Also, PCs tend to reduce in price with time until the next update. Macs do not.


It's reasonable to say wait for the update before making value propositions, however looking at previous iterations, it's not that hard to extrapolate what we're likely to get, unless Apple does an enormous about-face on their current trajectory. Other manufacturers have shown what can be done (like that Gigabyte Aero 15x), but this is not new. Apple have never put anywhere near the graphics performance in their notebooks as other companies manage to do, even while keeping thin and light frames, AND long battery life.

That's fair - I guess I just tend to mean their typical update timescales (probably getting caught up in my iPhone terms with 'release'). I can't pretend to know what the hardware refresh efforts take - but they certainly don't seem to have ever been rapid. I guess perhaps they are behind the iterations from others, but generally seem to decently stand on their own once they hit (if only for that 6 months or so to some!), at least for me.

I would certainly like to see the price cut prior to refreshes, but then I also would want to buy and probably tend to wait until said refresh, so it wouldn't benefit me! I guess I've not looked into the others enough to know whether the XPS or Surface Book models of the world have been discounted prior to their successors - but if so, that's certainly nice... my dad has an SB and it's pretty sweet.

I'd like better GPUs in them, I used to think the Alienwares of the world were the bees knees - but couldn't handle such a monstrosity these days... of course I'd be happy with a Razer Blade or an XPS 15 - I just don't know that I think they're THAT much better than an MBP (once refreshed of course).

 

[Koh Phi Phi]

I agree. Worst part of this gen' Macs.

 

[tim0409]

I had my 2016 MBP keyboard replaced last month by Apple. Now my wife's MB 12 has started to fail (two keys not working) and I've booked it in for a genius appointment. Has anybody had a keyboard replaced on a 2016 MacBook - do they replace it with the 2017 keyboard (with the deeper travel)?

(On the MBP 2016 they replaced it with a 2017 keyboard)

 

[Neverbepeace]

Wow,

My wife returned a 2017 ntb 128gb to buy a 2016 tb 256gb that were around the same price. So far, the wifi signal drops. Happened 4 times so far. Has to reboot computer to get it working again. She is getting the popping sound. She's been hearing it since she first got it but never paid much attention to it until it started happening back to back in some instances. Her space bar definitely has a different "feeling" then the rest of the keys. Other keys feels sturdy. The spacebar has a "mushy" type feeling with a different sound when hitting it. Still works fine but can't help but notice it.

Thats been our experience with this laptop so far. She has another 7 days in her return period. She figured more space would be beneficial for her video editing but not at this expense. She is tired of returning these Macs lol. She did ask if an Air could handle 1080p 60fps editing. Any info? Thanks

 

[prism]

The latest Quo rumors point to a MBP with just refreshed internals, whhhaaattt? If that’s what ends up happening, at least i already know what I’m NOT going to be buying.

 

[maflynn]

The latest Quo rumors point to a MBP with just refreshed internals, whhhaaattt? If that’s what ends up happening, at least i already know what I’m NOT going to be buying.

The issue with those sort of rumors, is they're not addressing the keyboard. Apple may be fixing it, and may not, but what we can expect is not a full redesign of the computer, depending on the detail of information he's getting he may not know. The issue is we'll have to wait and see.

The question is do we want to wait, and presumably if its a silent update, we need to wait until someone tears down the laptop to determine the state of the keyboard. Tbh, I'm not so sure I want too.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

The issue with those sort of rumors, is they're not addressing the keyboard. Apple may be fixing it, and may not, but what we can expect is not a full redesign of the computer, depending on the detail of information he's getting he may not know. The issue is we'll have to wait and see.

The question is do we want to wait, and presumably if its a silent update, we need to wait until someone tears down the laptop to determine the state of the keyboard. Tbh, I'm not so sure I want too.

I'd be amazed if they didn't fix the inherent problems after issuing an extended warranty for the product. Do people really think they'd waste money like that?