The AnandTech MBP with Retina display review is UP!

[stevelam]

It does sound like a mixture of software and design. The interesting part though is it performs better for 'real' applications and games. I think most early adopters would be ok with Facebook not being optimized if it means that their games, video and photo work aren't impacted.

If they aren't, then returning it and waiting a couple years is an option.

i hope so. i have one on order and intend to use it mainly for work purposes (dev/design). the review didn't mention anything about how well it handles panning/zooming/editing large images and psd/illustrator/etc files with several layers etc etc.

the scrolling lag within certain websites i can *probably* live with (haven't tried it on my own yet) but it just seems like a very strange issue that you're forced to settle for in 2012.

 

[cardsdoc]

Holy reviews batman! I've occasionally read anandtech reviews (or at least skimmed cause they're so long) but never really paid attention to the author nor did I know who Anand was. I'm awaiting a rMBP which will be an incredible upgrade from my 2007 MBP so I was particularly interested and read the whole thing. Anand really seems to be quite an impressive person. Extremely knowledgable, analytical, intelligent, insightful, and writes very well. I'm in a completely unrelated field (academic cardiologist) but have always been a computer nerd. It's always a pleasure coming across such experts in their respective fields (not me - I'm just a worker bee). If you read Macrumors Anand - strong work!

 

[magbarn]

i hope so. i have one on order and intend to use it mainly for work purposes (dev/design). the review didn't mention anything about how well it handles panning/zooming/editing large images and psd/illustrator/etc files with several layers etc etc.

the scrolling lag within certain websites i can *probably* live with (haven't tried it on my own yet) but it just seems like a very strange issue that you're forced to settle for in 2012.

It's not a strange issue if Anand's explanation is correct. His theory is that the current iGPU/dGPU in the rMBP doesn't have the hardware scalers to render at the rMBP resolutions as it hasn't been done before. So Apple has to render some of it in the CPU to make up for this. This is different on a multiple monitor setup where the internal GPU scalers are able to run as 1080p/1440p/1600p are already hard coded for those resolutions. If Haswell's GPU and 750GT next year has the hardware scalers for rMBP resolutions, it's going to be a much faster machine then this year's rMBP.

 

[ppone]

Anand said:

"Remember at 2880 x 1800 there are simply more pixels to push and more work to be done by both the CPU and the GPU. It’s even worse in those applications that have higher quality assets, the CPU now has to decode images at 4x the resolution of what it’s used to. Future CPUs will take this added workload into account, but it’ll take time to get there."

To me it won't just be Facebook. It seems to be any applications that has higher quality assets. Facebook is just one example. Many other websites out there that people could rely on. There are lots of productivity web applications, like project management web apps and so forth.

However, Anand said on Mountain Lion, he did get better fps (primarily due to Safari be coded to use the GPU more 'Core Animation'). The question here is will the user notice the difference between 30fps and 60fps scrolling or other common UI things. If they don't, then they won't notice a lag.

Also note, The geek bench scores for Retina and non-retina MBP are virtually the same with the same processor.

However, in the real world usage, where you might have multiple websites and applications running. Would the retina display slow down your productivity
since, the display itself might be using some more gpu and cpu time, instead of the other applications, as compared to the non-retina version with the same specs.

That is what should be tested.

A good test might be

-importing a raw image in Aperature
-having multiple websites open, twitter, quota, Facebook, youtube
-playing a 1080 HD
-Doing something processor intensive on Photoshop at the same time.
-Writing a presentation in Keynote
-Writing a document in Pages

All happening around the same time.

Then running some benchmark like Geekbench or sometime of GPU benchmark while the above is still happening and seeing the delta between the rMBP and MBP.

If there is less than a 15% difference between rMBP and MBP and there is no "noticeable" lag between the two.

Then the rMBP wins.

Also adding an additional monitor while doing the above; well that would be a good test. Stretching the GPU a bit further.

It does sound like a mixture of software and design. The interesting part though is it performs better for 'real' applications and games. I think most early adopters would be ok with Facebook not being optimized if it means that their games, video and photo work aren't impacted.

If they aren't, then returning it and waiting a couple years is an option.

 

[stevelam]

It's not a strange issue if Anand's explanation is correct. His theory is that the current iGPU/dGPU in the rMBP doesn't have the hardware scalers to render at the rMBP resolutions as it hasn't been done before. So Apple has to render some of it in the CPU to make up for this. This is different on a multiple monitor setup where the internal GPU scalers are able to run as 1080p/1440p/1600p are already hard coded for those resolutions. If Haswell's GPU and 750GT next year has the hardware scalers for rMBP resolutions, it's going to be a much faster machine then this year's rMBP.

oh i agree its not a strange issue on a tech level. i just mean scrolling is just something we take for granted now experience-wise and it just seems weird that we have to take a step back on that front on a super high end machine.

so basically the current iteration of the RMBP is trying to run software before theres hardware ready for it. that kind of sucks.

 

[jcpb]

What isn't clear form the reviews is if ML will solve all performance related issues or if do we need haswell for that?

Not until 5nm, and that's half a decade away. In other words, don't bother waiting for that day to arrive - it never does, it doesn't matter how fast the next gen can be because it's just not fast enough now.

 

[magbarn]

Anand said:
...
That is what should be tested.

A good test might be

-importing a raw image in Aperature
-having multiple websites open, twitter, quota, Facebook, youtube
-playing a 1080 HD
-Doing something processor intensive on Photoshop at the same time.
-Writing a presentation in Keynote
-Writing a document in Pages

All happening around the same time.

Then running some benchmark like Geekbench or sometime of GPU benchmark while the above is still happening and seeing the delta between the rMBP and MBP.

If there is less than a 15% difference between rMBP and MBP and there is no "noticeable" lag between the two.

Then the rMBP wins.

Also adding an additional monitor while doing the above; well that would be a good test. Stretching the GPU a bit further.

The problem with geekbench and your benchmark test above is that the majority of what you're proposing isn't going to be rendered, it's mostly internal CPU/GPU benchmarking. It's the rendering of the 'non-standard' bolded resolutions below in the CPU instead of the GPU that's making the resolutions other than 'best for retina' slower

"Oh but there’s more.

If you select the 1680 x 1050 or 1920 x 1200 scaling modes, Apple actually renders the desktop at 2x the selected resolution (3360 x 2100 or 3840 x 2400, respectively), scales up the text and UI elements accordingly so they aren’t super tiny (backing scale factor = 2.0), and downscales the final image to fit on the 2880 x 1800 panel. The end result is you get a 3360 x 2100 desktop, with text and UI elements the size they would be on a 1680 x 1050 desktop, all without sacrificing much sharpness/crispness thanks to the massive supersampling. The resulting image isn’t as perfect as it would be at the default setting because you have to perform a floating point filter down to 2880 x 1800, but it’s still incredibly good."

 

[corvus32]

scrolling up and down a page shouldn't invoke 100% cpu usage on a single core. maybe this will be addressed via software, maybe not, but it still sucks right now and certainly sucks for early adopters like you, whether you want to admit that or not.

It doesn't.

Safari shows 30-40% CPU usage when I scroll the Anandtech homepage.

I also use AdBlock and don't have Flash installed either - just saying.

 

[scarred]

Once you read an Anandtech review, all the others sound pretty amateur. In comparison, the other websites sound like they read the side of the box and are re-reading it to you (like they do at <big box store>).

This review was fair and balanced. He gives the notebook high praise, but doesn't hold back where there are problems.

 

[NMF]

I don't care what silly explanation Apple tries to give. If my super thin, non-discrete GPU having, fanless iPad can scroll through Facebook at a 2k resolution then there's no reason why this beastly MBP can't do it at 2880x1800. Bottom line.

This better be fixed with a software update...

 

[ppone]

It not some type of internal Processor benchmark. They are just running computer programs and timing them. Like running a Blowfish
single-core scalar program, which is probably a c or c++ program.

Read what Anand wrote, the Retina definitely uses more cpu time. So that would effect any benchmark suite.

The quote you took Anand he discussing how the UI looks as opposed to how it will perform. On Lion, there is some noticeable lag using safari.

http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/mac/retinaMacBookPro/scrollingperf.jpg

The problem with geekbench and your benchmark test above is that the majority of what you're proposing isn't going to be rendered, it's mostly internal CPU/GPU benchmarking. It's the rendering of the 'non-standard' bolded resolutions below in the CPU instead of the GPU that's making the resolutions other than 'best for retina' slower

"Oh but there’s more.

If you select the 1680 x 1050 or 1920 x 1200 scaling modes, Apple actually renders the desktop at 2x the selected resolution (3360 x 2100 or 3840 x 2400, respectively), scales up the text and UI elements accordingly so they aren’t super tiny (backing scale factor = 2.0), and downscales the final image to fit on the 2880 x 1800 panel. The end result is you get a 3360 x 2100 desktop, with text and UI elements the size they would be on a 1680 x 1050 desktop, all without sacrificing much sharpness/crispness thanks to the massive supersampling. The resulting image isn’t as perfect as it would be at the default setting because you have to perform a floating point filter down to 2880 x 1800, but it’s still incredibly good."

 

[jcpb]

I don't care what silly explanation Apple tries to give. If my super thin, non-discrete GPU having, fanless iPad can scroll through Facebook at a 2k resolution then there's no reason why this beastly MBP can't do it at 2880x1800. Bottom line.

This better be fixed with a software update...

Above post is reason why haters gonna hate.

It doesn't matter what Apple does to placate this kind of folks, they are NEVER pleased and they keep saying Apple's not trying hard enough to make it more magical and awesomesauce. Oh it lags? Make hundreds of threads arguing why others should stay away until Apple fixes it.

Watching paint dry is more exciting than this kind of habitual whining.

 

[pmau]

Above post is reason why haters gonna hate.

It doesn't matter what Apple does to placate this kind of folks, they are NEVER pleased and they keep saying Apple's not trying hard enough to make it more magical and awesomesauce. Oh it lags? Make hundreds of threads arguing why others should stay away until Apple fixes it.

Watching paint dry is more exciting than this kind of habitual whining.

I disagree.

They took a hardware and maxed them out to its limits. They got away with the least power consuming GPU because they have to maintain battery life.

And the result: a compromise that shows all its weak points.

It's not even a new product, where one could argue that apple may improve it. It's just the top end of available hardware for a given price.

That's the reason people are criticizing apple. Once there was a time when Apple offered highly priced products that offered something nobody else did.

With the RMBP they simply maxed out the available hardware and try to sell it as innovation.

Think about it.

 

[NoMoreSony]

Has anyone noted that two key important parameters for photographers such as color accuracy and color gamut by Retina Macbook's are really worse than by Early 2011 model - http://www.anandtech.com/show/6023/the-nextgen-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-review/5 ?

 

[stevelam]

Above post is reason why haters gonna hate.

It doesn't matter what Apple does to placate this kind of folks, they are NEVER pleased and they keep saying Apple's not trying hard enough to make it more magical and awesomesauce. Oh it lags? Make hundreds of threads arguing why others should stay away until Apple fixes it.

Watching paint dry is more exciting than this kind of habitual whining.

^^

this can be served as a typical rant from someone who plopped down near 3 grand for a machine and refuses to see fault in it, simply because they don't want to look and feel stupid.

instead, they attack other people despite the fact that one of the most well respected tech sites blatantly points out an issue that all early adopters were hoping was only an overblown forum rant. turns out, its more than that and is an actual issue. sucks for you buddy.

 

[ppone]

I disagree. I couldn't see any other company doing a Retina Display. No other company could have brought 15 inch Retina Display to the masses.

"The credit Apple deserves for the display extends beyond simply pushing LG to get a panel out on time and in large enough quantities. There’s a tremendous amount of software work that Apple put into making the Retina experience work under OS X. The OS and several key applications have been updated to properly support the MacBook Pro’s Retina Display, and things can only get better from here. Mountain Lion will improve performance and I would expect at least a few key app updates over the next year to bring increased Retina awareness.

There’s also the behind the scenes work Apple put in to make all of this happen. The pressure on the GPU vendors, as well as taking matters into its own hands with writing scaling and filtering routines to deliver a good experience are all noteworthy. "

I disagree.

They took a hardware and maxed them out to its limits. They got away with the least power consuming GPU because they have to maintain battery life.

And the result: a compromise that shows all its weak points.

It's not even a new product, where one could argue that apple may improve it. It's just the top end of available hardware for a given price.

That's the reason people are criticizing apple. Once there was a time when Apple offered highly priced products that offered something nobody else did.

With the RMBP they simply maxed out the available hardware and try to sell it as innovation.

Think about it.

 

[jcpb]

I disagree.

They took a hardware and maxed them out to its limits. They got away with the least power consuming GPU because they have to maintain battery life.

And the result: a compromise that shows all its weak points.

It's not even a new product, where one could argue that apple may improve it. It's just the top end of available hardware for a given price.

That's the reason people are criticizing apple. Once there was a time when Apple offered highly priced products that offered something nobody else did.

With the RMBP they simply maxed out the available hardware and try to sell it as innovation.

Think about it.

Funny enough, people said the exact same thing about this year's iPad.

 

[stevelam]

I disagree. I couldn't see any other company doing a Retina Display. No other company could have brought 15 inch Retina Display to the masses.

"The credit Apple deserves for the display extends beyond simply pushing LG to get a panel out on time and in large enough quantities. There’s a tremendous amount of software work that Apple put into making the Retina experience work under OS X. The OS and several key applications have been updated to properly support the MacBook Pro’s Retina Display, and things can only get better from here. Mountain Lion will improve performance and I would expect at least a few key app updates over the next year to bring increased Retina awareness.

There’s also the behind the scenes work Apple put in to make all of this happen. The pressure on the GPU vendors, as well as taking matters into its own hands with writing scaling and filtering routines to deliver a good experience are all noteworthy. "

there is no doubt that apple put a lot of their own innovation into this. unfortunately, it sounds like hardware limitation is the factor limiting user experience, which is a horrible call on their part for a company that brought UX to the forefront for all other tech companies to follow.

 

[jcpb]

^^

this can be served as a typical rant from someone who plopped down near 3 grand for a machine and refuses to see fault in it, simply because they don't want to look and feel stupid.

instead, they attack other people despite the fact that one of the most well respected tech sites blatantly points out an issue that all early adopters were hoping was only an overblown forum rant. turns out, its more than that and is an actual issue. sucks for you buddy.

Do I see faults in it? Yes I do.

Do I regret that I'm spending $5000+ on a 1st gen product that's universally loathed by trolls and haters? No, why should I? My biggest regret, sir, is not buying laptops when I stopped needing superlative desktop hardware to run games.

Haters gonna hate. Doesn't matter what Apple does, it's getting flamed just because it's not good enough for them.

----------

there is no doubt that apple put a lot of their own innovation into this. unfortunately, it sounds like hardware limitation is the factor limiting user experience, which is a horrible call on their part for a company that brought UX to the forefront for all other tech companies to follow.

The market will get there on their own pace, but if Apple wants to get there now, it has to go into uncharted territory. This is what Apple has done.

Why and how does it suck to be a trailblazer?

Do tell us please.

 

[ppone]

Because it is true. Why hasn't any other tablet company matched the retina iPad. It's not just a technical issue. It a logistic one.

That's where Tim Cook shines. Otherwise the retina iPad would have been a 2000 dollar tablet and maybe a 5000 dollar rMBP.

Basic economics supply vs demand. Tim is good at creating the supply.

And Steve Jobs was great at creating demand like no other.

Funny enough, people said the exact same thing about this year's iPad.

 

[-tWv-]

Great review. Extremely informative and solidified my confidence in my purchase. Can't wait until it arrives!

 

[ppone]

That is why they sell 2 15inch MBP lines. The rMBP is bleeding edge. Maybe next year they will iron out everything, and sell only 1 15inch MBP line.

there is no doubt that apple put a lot of their own innovation into this. Unfortunately, it sounds like hardware limitation is the factor limiting user experience, which is a horrible call on their part for a company that brought ux to the forefront for all other tech companies to follow.

[

 

[stevelam]

That is why they sell 2 15inch MBP lines. The rMBP is bleeding edge. Maybe next year they will iron out everything, and sell only 1 15inch MBP line.

if they were really aiming for the bleeding edge title, they'd at least have thrown in 802.11ac rather than N. generally, i think apple are smart enough when to use bleeding edge tech and when not to. i'm sure there are legitimate reasons not to go with 802.11ac right now.

in the case for retina display on a laptop, if it can't run the OS gui properly/as well as previous models, something is wrong.

 

[CapnJackGig]

This review made it much easier to wait until next year's models. I appreciate the work being done by all the guinea pigs though on my behalf.

 

[ppone]

The GUI lag isn't that bad. I have tried a few of them at the Apple store. Mountain Lion will definitely improve the lag.

So it's bleeding edge that good enough + useful.

Most people are already happy with their wifi. It when you need to stream movies at your home network, or improve wireless time machine backups than the 802.11 ac will help, assuming your router supports it.

It won't improve your internet speed, but might make surfing outside of your house a bit faster.

QUOTE=stevelam;15108834]if they were really aiming for the bleeding edge title, they'd at least have thrown in 802.11ac rather than N. generally, i think apple are smart enough when to use bleeding edge tech and when not to. i'm sure there are legitimate reasons not to go with 802.11ac right now.

in the case for retina display on a laptop, if it can't run the OS gui properly/as well as previous models, something is wrong.[/QUOTE]