The Car Thread ... !

[Apple fanboy]

It depends very much on which cars you're talking about. But it is true that discarding an ICE vehicle to buy an EV is not always the 'greener' choice.

Also most of us are selling on our old ICE cars, or in my case two. Not exactly discarding!

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Also most of us are selling on our old ICE cars, or in my case two. Not exactly discarding!

I plan on running my Fiesta till the bitter end. I want to get at least 200k miles, hopefully much more than that. I think the mechanicals can easily make it that far. But in my part of the world winter road salt is the destroyer. Corrosion will kill this car before the machinery gives out. I'm already seeing the early signs in a few areas. But this is a year-round driver and with a car made of steel there is no escape from it.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I plan on running my Fiesta till the bitter end. I want to get at least 200k miles, hopefully much more than that. I think the mechanicals can easily make it that far. But in my part of the world winter road salt is the destroyer. Corrosion will kill this car before the machinery gives out. I'm already seeing the early signs in a few areas. But this is a year-round driver and with a car made of steel there is no escape from it.

And why are cars still made of steel? Because it’s heavy and will corrode. So people have to replace them!
Carbon fibre, aluminium and plastic are all better options for longevity. But no car manufacturer wants people keeping cars for years.
The problem with keeping cars for years is there is always a choice every time something fails. Do I spend £500 on my car? Do I spend £1000 on my car? At some point there is a point that isn’t economical to fix it. Easier if you do your own maintenance like @Nütztjanix. But labour costs are nearly as expensive as parts cost.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

And why are cars still made of steel? Because it’s heavy and will corrode. So people have to replace them!
Carbon fibre, aluminium and plastic are all better options for longevity. But no car manufacturer wants people keeping cars for years.
The problem with keeping cars for years is there is always a choice every time something fails. Do I spend £500 on my car? Do I spend £1000 on my car? At some point there is a point that isn’t economical to fix it. Easier if you do your own maintenance like @Nütztjanix. But labour costs are nearly as expensive as parts cost.

Lifecycle costs (both monetary and environmental) are very complex to calculate. Which is why most people throw up their hands and don't bother. But these systems have impacts whether we care about them or not.

Deciding how long to keep a car is a going to be a highly personal situation. Doing some maintenance yourself can save money. Just doing maintenance saves money in the long run...it's mind-boggling to me how few people keep up with simple but critical stuff like oil changes, maintaining tire pressure, topping up fluids, not driving on bald tires...cheap or free maintenance work that substantially extends the life of the vehicle.

The last time I was at the mechanic he had a full-sized truck in with a seized engine. Somebody just wasn't changing the oil. So rather than spend 150-200 bucks on a years' worth of oil changes they've done $8,000-10,000+ damage to their vehicle and are likely going to walk away from it for scrap value. If you look at that in terms of lifecycle costs and environmental costs it is both expensive and wasteful.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Lifecycle costs (both monetary and environmental) are very complex to calculate. Which is why most people throw up their hands and don't bother. But these systems have impacts whether we care about them or not.

Deciding how long to keep a car is a going to be a highly personal situation. Doing some maintenance yourself can save money. Just doing maintenance saves money in the long run...it's mind-boggling to me how few people keep up with simple but critical stuff like oil changes, maintaining tire pressure, topping up fluids, not driving on bald tires...cheap or free maintenance work that substantially extends the life of the vehicle.

The last time I was at the mechanic he had a full-sized truck in with a seized engine. Somebody just wasn't changing the oil. So rather than spend 150-200 bucks on a years' worth of oil changes they've done $8,000-10,000+ damage to their vehicle and are likely going to walk away from it for scrap value. If you look at that in terms of lifecycle costs and environmental costs it is both expensive and wasteful.

Absolutely. Whatever the car you own, you need to keep up with the maintenance schedule. Not doing so isn’t wise. But it’s the other things that fail that can soon mount up.
Truth is driving isn’t a right or cheap. But depending on where and how you live there aren’t any perfect options. Dropping to one car instead of two is something we are choosing to do to save money. But it’s only an option because Mrs AFB doesn’t work.

 

[Nütztjanix]

There is a lot of truth in that. But you’re not buying a new ICE car every two years. That’s the worst scenario. Do they have a date to stop selling ICE cars in Germany?

Germany doesn't have a date on it’s own, but the EU plans for 2035.

And why are cars still made of steel? Because it’s heavy and will corrode. So people have to replace them!
Carbon fibre, aluminium and plastic are all better options for longevity. But no car manufacturer wants people keeping cars for years.
The problem with keeping cars for years is there is always a choice every time something fails. Do I spend £500 on my car? Do I spend £1000 on my car? At some point there is a point that isn’t economical to fix it. Easier if you do your own maintenance like @Nütztjanix. But labour costs are nearly as expensive as parts cost.

Well, carbon fibre is expensive to built in high volume, and difficult and expensive to repair. Plastics alone probably won't give you the desired strength and structural integrity. As for aluminium, a noteworthy amount of components on modern cars already is made of aluminium. (Almost) complete cars of aluminium in high volume are only made by Audi (TT, A8 …) as far as I know.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Germany doesn't have a date on it’s own, but the EU plans for 2035.



Well, carbon fibre is expensive to built in high volume, and difficult and expensive to repair. Plastics alone probably won't give you the desired strength and structural integrity. As for aluminium, a noteworthy amount of components on modern cars already is made of aluminium. (Almost) complete cars of aluminium in high volume are only made by Audi (TT, A8 …) as far as I know.

The i3 is aluminium, carbon fibre and plastic. That makes it nice and light.

 

[Nütztjanix]

Frame/structure is carbon fibre, but it's a nightmare to repair if you get hit in the wrong angle/place or with a certain speed.
Also, it's (still) not really economically feasible to produce in high volume with a target price point.
With the i3 it was possible because as a technology innovator it could be priced accordingly — and at the expected volume it didn't hurt to much if margin was lower.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Frame/structure is carbon fibre, but it's a nightmare to repair if you get hit in the wrong angle/place or with a certain speed.
Also, it's (still) not really economically feasible to produce in high volume with a target price point.
With the i3 it was possible because as a technology innovator it could be priced accordingly — and at the expected volume it didn't hurt to much if margin was lower.

That it is. But that’s what insurance is for! Due to the parts shortages lots of cars that would normally be repaired are being written off.

 

[ericwn]

They shaved indeed 200kg from this model bringing the weight of the current softtop (ND) back to the weight of the first generation Miata (NA).
The handling is great because its a (front) mid engined car with a 50/50 weight balance.

In the beginning I was thinking about getting the softtop, but in Belgium, if you buy your car as a company car with a renting (lease + buy afterwards option) contract, you can't order a softtop, mostly because a softtop gets broken in quiet fast, just bij slicing up the roof when it stays unattended in parts of Brussels. The parts where there are a lot of parkinglots catering to company cars around the business districts.

Yet, I personally preferred the silouette of the RF version a little bit more. It has some 1968 Opel GT looks to it:

especially when you look at the Opel Aero GT prototype that unfortunate never was put in production:

The Opel GT was special. My dad had one for a few years, it was so much fun to be in!

 

[NT1440]

I suspect this is a self-selection bias. People in that age bracket who talk cars on the internet tend to like cars and have built that like into their budget models. People in that age group who don’t like cars probably rarely talk about them at all, so you aren’t aware of them.

Interestingly, I see the opposite. Lots of younger people with no significant financial commitments spending high-hundreds every month on lease deals for prestige cars. It’s certainly very common theme in the UK on car-specific websites.

I love cars, they are my most expensive hobby but it is something that I have built into my budgeting for about 30 years, now. And once you get into cars which tend to hold their value it becomes easier to buy the next one, and you are only paying the difference in the cost of the cars. Much like some people buy the latest iPhone each year and minimise the costs by carefully selling their out-going model.

I’m “into” cars only in the sense that I enjoy working on them. As an IT worker wrenching is my “turn my brain off” hobby that I find relaxing (one may get a different impression from the amount of grunting and swearing).

 

[NT1440]

The whole leasing tangent is a very sensitive subject for some people. In my opinion, leasing is an absolutely horrible financial method of purchasing a vehicle (For a variety reasons), and there’s a large swath of consumers who can’t afford various vehicles, so they think leasing is that secondary avenue to obtain a car that is well above their pay grade they struggle with a payment. I’m not saying that’s everybody’s case, but I prefer to own my cars outright and are titled direct to me.

To each their own.

That’s my philosophy as well, but having friends that just need something reliable to get to work who can’t afford to buy I do understand their mindset even if it’s a big financial burden.

Me personally, but cheap, fix, enjoy the low low insurance payments.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

The last time I was at the mechanic he had a full-sized truck in with a seized engine. Somebody just wasn't changing the oil. So rather than spend 150-200 bucks on a years' worth of oil changes they've done $8,000-10,000+ damage to their vehicle and are likely going to walk away from it for scrap value. If you look at that in terms of lifecycle costs and environmental costs it is both expensive and wasteful.

I know somebody who did that with a 2014 Mercedes A-Class lol. He did thousands of miles over the service interval and never even topped the oil up. Cost him a new engine and he still tried to shrug it off like it didn’t really matter despite costing him thousands lol.

My Audi A4 2.0 TDI has done 29,5k miles now and been serviced every year since it was registered in 2015. On one of the services it had done just 887 miles since it’s last one! Now I’ve got it I will service it every 9-10k miles. It pays to stay on top of it and I would do it myself if I could get under the car.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I know somebody who did that with a 2014 Mercedes A-Class lol. He did thousands of miles over the service interval and never even topped the oil up. Cost him a new engine and he still tried to shrug it off like it didn’t really matter despite costing him thousands lol.

My Audi A4 2.0 TDI has done 29,5k miles now and been serviced every year since it was registered in 2015. On one of the services it had done just 887 miles since it’s last one! Now I’ve got it I will service it every 9-10k miles. It pays to stay on top of it and I would do it myself if I could get under the car.

Use a Jack!

 

[Tagbert]

A lot of people do short commutes during the week and longer runs at weekends I suppose, I know I do. My commute is 14 miles each way Monday to Friday but we’ll go anyway from West Wales, the Midlands to Surrey and even Dorset visiting family and friends at weekends. I can usually get to those places and back on a full tank. This is the completion benchmark for larger EV’s I think as it’s a common demand for this sort of flexibility for a car IMO.

Your pattern might be better fit with a plug-in hybrid as long as you can find one with a decent EV range. You would use entirely electric on weekdays and switch to petrol for weekends. As a hybrid, the petrol milage should be good, as well.

 

[44267547]

That’s my philosophy as well, but having friends that just need something reliable to get to work who can’t afford to buy I do understand their mindset even if it’s a big financial burden.

Me personally, but cheap, fix, enjoy the low low insurance payments.

Being younger in my early 30s, I have zero accidents on my driving record/no citations, Plus, I’ve been with the same insurance company for 15 years that cross-shops to stay competitive against other insurance companies. So my rates are relatively low. Insurance is mostly relative to your driving history.

In terms of repairing your own vehicles, that is an excellent skill set to have as a money saver. The problem is, vehicles are becoming far more complicated and diverse to repair, because of the on-board ECM‘s that require code to troubleshoot.

One of my all-time favorite cars I owned as ‘project car’, was a 2011 crown Victoria P.I. I kid you not, you could change the alternator in under 30 minutes. The water pump was easily accessible. Now, if you attempted to change the water pump on the new Explorers or an 18’ Taurus, you’d have to pull the engine, and it’s extremely labor-intensive that requires about six hours worth of maintenance.

 

[Tagbert]

removed duplicate

 

[Lord Blackadder]

My Audi A4 2.0 TDI has done 29,5k miles now and been serviced every year since it was registered in 2015. On one of the services it had done just 887 miles since it’s last one! Now I’ve got it I will service it every 9-10k miles. It pays to stay on top of it and I would do it myself if I could get under the car.

I used to do quite a bit of my own maintenance - oil changes, brake pads and rotors, sensor replacements, a little bit of electrical and whatnot...but newer cars are getting harder and more expensive to work on. I did my last couple oil changes on the Fiesta myself, but the problem is my mechanic charges the same for an oil change/top off fluids/check tire pressure as it costs me for oil and a filter at the auto parts store! So I usually only do it myself if I'm due and can't get an appointment on time.

I need a new set of front struts and I'm considering doing them myself. It requires only wrenches and some penetrating oil and it would save $350 in shop time...but it would take me longer than the pros to do it and anyone who has changed out suspension parts on an aging car will know that the bolts don't always want to come out without plenty of 'persuasion' and barked knuckles. And to access the nuts on top of the strut assemblies requires removing the wipers, popping the headlight assemblies out, then removing a big plastic tray beneath the wipers and wiper regulators. Lots of messing around.

 

[Tagbert]

And why are cars still made of steel? Because it’s heavy and will corrode. So people have to replace them!
Carbon fibre, aluminium and plastic are all better options for longevity. But no car manufacturer wants people keeping cars for years.
The problem with keeping cars for years is there is always a choice every time something fails. Do I spend £500 on my car? Do I spend £1000 on my car? At some point there is a point that isn’t economical to fix it. Easier if you do your own maintenance like @Nütztjanix. But labour costs are nearly as expensive as parts cost.

That and most of those materials are much more expensive than steel. Modern cars have a lot of high strength steel that can provide the structure but with less weight than older steels. Aluminum can be tricky in structural uses as it tends to fatigue under load and break unless you over engineer the part which makes it heavier. Steel and Aluminum are able to be recycled whereas plastic and carbon fibre generally cannot be.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

That and most of those materials are much more expensive than steel. Modern cars have a lot of high strength steel that can provide the structure but with less weight than older steels. Aluminum can be tricky in structural uses as it tends to fatigue under load and break unless you over engineer the part which makes it heavier. Steel and Aluminum are able to be recycled whereas plastic and carbon fibre generally cannot be.

I'd love to see the performance you'd get from making something like my Fiesta out of carbon fiber. With all else being equal you could see a weight savings of perhaps 40% in the monocoque and body panels. That would translate to pretty significant improvements in both power to weight ratio and fuel economy. And no rust!

But as you said cost will always be a stumbling block. Steel is cheap, strong, easy to work with and easy to recycle. Carbon fiber and aluminum will always cost more - quite a bit more.

 

[danmart]

There are other factors at play. Carbon fibre is only strong in certain directions based on the weave, and I don’t believe you can repair it against knocks that could be beaten out of steel. Aluminium I know cannot be beaten - I had an accident in a car with aluminium wings and just a minor dent meant a whole new panel was required.

 

[Apple fanboy]

There are other factors at play. Carbon fibre is only strong in certain directions based on the weave, and I don’t believe you can repair it against knocks that could be beaten out of steel. Aluminium I know cannot be beaten - I had an accident in a car with aluminium wings and just a minor dent meant a whole new panel was required.

You have to use these materials in the right places of course. But standard car manufacturer hadn’t changed a lot over the years. That’s partly due to cost, but other factors at play as well.
Personally I’m looking forward to driving around in a carbon fibre pod like the F1 guys do!

 

[44267547]

Side note for alternative carbon fiber:

Actually, there is a 21’ Ford Explorer that I saw last month that the owner invested a ‘carbon fiber wrap’ on the hood. Even though it’s not true carbon fiber, it actually has a really unique textured pattern to it, where water/dirt is pretty much impervious, and it doesn’t scratch at all. It’s not cheap though, it’s just over ~$1200 for the materials/install. It’s a cheaper-durable alternative to the real carbon fiber, which would be exponentially more expensive for any aftermarket install/overall cost.

Edit:

This is literally what it looked like below. If you have like a slate/dark gray colored vehicle/sports car, it actually looks fairly unique, but also adds the protection for rock chips.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

There are other factors at play. Carbon fibre is only strong in certain directions based on the weave, and I don’t believe you can repair it against knocks that could be beaten out of steel. Aluminium I know cannot be beaten - I had an accident in a car with aluminium wings and just a minor dent meant a whole new panel was required.

One plus of aluminium is it is much more environmentally friendly than steel and a third of the weight. Better fuel consumption and better end of life recycling potential. It is less repairable though which is a negative but in current prices it’s slightly cheaper, however this is changing by the hour.

 

[danmart]

My point was that materials bring a lot of different factors into play, and it isn’t as simple as carbon fibre, plastic and aluminium are ‘better’ than steel. They have some features which are positive and some which are negative.

I was an Audi driver for over twenty years, and they are widely seen as pioneers in the use of aluminium in cars. But even they moved to using a mix of steel and aluminium to get the better combination of lightness and strength with new techniques.

It’s a continually advancing science - I found a brief article about an advance in steel discovered by Sheffield University while thinking about this.