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And with Apple's push to make Snow Leopard completely 64-bit, it was then that Apple chose to drop PowerPC support.
They could have compiled Snow Leopard in universal binary though, yes?

I'm not trying to argue that it was unreasonable of Apple to drop support for the PowerPC architecture, I just think that the G5 would have been easily capable of running Snow Leopard (and perhaps Lion, if it had been made 32-bit compatible). While it is true that almost all first-gen intel Macs are faster than PowerPC Macs, I think people underestimate the G5.

By the way - thank you for your explanation of Apple's decision to drop support for PowerPC, I had never heard that before!
 
They could but support for Leopard ended in '11 when ML was released, I think the average lifespan of a computer is 5 years now so they still got support.
 
They could have compiled Snow Leopard in universal binary though, yes?

They could have, but I think it was a decision made by Apple to let the G5's ride out their life well. If they allowed the G5's to run 64-bit Snow Leopard, people would have complained at how slow it was compared to the lesser powered Core2Duo Minis. If Apple didn't compile it for 64-bit, but only 32-bit G5's, then people would have complained at why wasn't it 64-bit like the Intell version and why is it limited to only G5's and not the similarly powered G4's. Then there's the path Apple chose, drop PowerPC support completely. This is the best choice because it allowed Apple to slim down Snow Leopard and give it the speed over Leopard it's known for. People still complained about Apple dropping support for PowerPC, mostly without knowing why. But once they know why, they tend to agree with Apple's choices.
 
With Apple moving to 64-bit only with Lion, G5s would have taken a very big performance hit. G5s run 64-bit binaries much slower than 32-bit due to the large overhead and slower memory interface.
I'm sure you have a source for your claim. I doubt that, because the memory bus is already 128-bit on these machines. And btw, the instruction cache (64 KB per processor) accelerates the code execution.

Source:
https://developer.apple.com/legacy/...s/Macintosh_CPUs-G5/PowerMacG5/PowerMacG5.pdf
 
I'm sure you have a source for your claim. I doubt that, because the memory bus is already 128-bit on these machines. And btw, the instruction cache (64 KB per processor) accelerates the code execution.

It's all in this lovely article about Snow Leopard and 64-bit: http://appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/26/road_to_mac_os_x_10_6_snow_leopard_64_bits.html/page/1

And have you ever personally ran a 64-bit PowerPC binary? It's noticeably slower than the comparable 32-bit.
 
And have you ever personally ran a 64-bit PowerPC binary? It's noticeably slower than the comparable 32-bit.
This is probably a compiler related problem (i.e. the “newer” 64-Bit PowerPC compilers generated non-optimized code). I doubt that this is a hardware problem. AFAIK, the G5 processor was the first 64-Bit PowerPC processor in a Mac. Apple had probably no time to write optimized compilers for the 64-Bit PowerPC platform.
 
Apple didn't write the compiler - their toolchain at the time used GCC (although with a lot of Apple contributions I'm sure).
 
This is probably a compiler related problem (i.e. the “newer” 64-Bit PowerPC compilers generated non-optimized code). I doubt that this is a hardware problem. AFAIK, the G5 processor was the first 64-Bit PowerPC processor in a Mac. Apple had probably no time to write optimized compilers for the 64-Bit PowerPC platform.

It isn't a compiler problem. Even 64-but Linux runs much slower than 32-bit Linux on a G5. It's just how the hardware was designed.
 
I love my G5 and its sad that it sits in another room now not doing anything. Every so often (now being one of them) I try to find something I can use it for. The machine works great the only issue is the inability to upgrade anything now. Now I have been running a Early 08 8-core Mac Pro and when a new os gets announced I immediately check the requirements. With mavericks coming the requirements are very close to excluding my computer. Why? Idk but I guess my point is its just sad when an entire system gets phased out. Apple used to be awesome with "backwards compatibility" but now it seems like Linux and Microsoft have become much better at that game. I just installed windows 8 on a laptop from 2004 and that thing runs impressively smooth.

I get it, it costs apple a lot of money to keep aging hardware alive. If they kept PPC going they would have developed 2 sets of the same operating system and software. -It would look like they have a slow version and a fast version of something. -Low end users would have no reason to upgrade. -Sales of new hardware would move slower.
But the other Os companies are keeping support so we will see. I guess my overall point is its still sad to see a perfectly good system just sit there because its not really supported anymore.
 
I love my G5 and its sad that it sits in another room now not doing anything. Every so often (now being one of them) I try to find something I can use it for. The machine works great the only issue is the inability to upgrade anything now. Now I have been running a Early 08 8-core Mac Pro and when a new os gets announced I immediately check the requirements. With mavericks coming the requirements are very close to excluding my computer. Why? Idk but I guess my point is its just sad when an entire system gets phased out. Apple used to be awesome with "backwards compatibility" but now it seems like Linux and Microsoft have become much better at that game. I just installed windows 8 on a laptop from 2004 and that thing runs impressively smooth.

I get it, it costs apple a lot of money to keep aging hardware alive. If they kept PPC going they would have developed 2 sets of the same operating system and software. -It would look like they have a slow version and a fast version of something. -Low end users would have no reason to upgrade. -Sales of new hardware would move slower.
But the other Os companies are keeping support so we will see. I guess my overall point is its still sad to see a perfectly good system just sit there because its not really supported anymore.
It is indeed a shame; I myself was always quite peeved that us PPC users couldn't at the very least have the huge improvement that is Snow Leopard; I run it on my MacBook, and it truly blows Leopard out of the water. I suppose perhaps at least some of that effect is due to the removal of PPC code, but still... :eek:

Just the other day though, I did a Tiger reinstall for the first time ever on my eMac; it had been running an installation that I had cloned from an old iBook G3's dying hard drive way back in 2007, and transferred between multiple Macs since, so you can probably imagine the awful shape that OS install was in after 8 years. :p I wiped and formatted the whole drive, started completely over fresh and anew with an install DVD I recently acquired.

And WOW! :eek: The difference in speed and smoothness throughout not just the OS, but the apps as well, is mind-blowing. I had forgotten this ol' tank could boot in less than two minutes. :eek: Well worth the time and effort, she feels like a brand new machine again! :)
 
Think Different

...not only do not have character, they do not have a soul. Peroid. Steve was already in the process of dying when the switch happened, and the death of PowerPC was the death of the real Apple. Tim Cook's Apple is a pale iphone inspired ghost of the truly great company that one was. Before you call me a poser, I've been an Apple user since 82 and a Mac user since 87. I was there in the darkest days, evangelizing like a madman. I've used and sold more macs than I've had hot meals in the last twenty five years.

Just think of some of the macs made between 98 and 2006...

Wallstreets
Pismos
Titaniums
Bondi Blue and other G3 imacs
G4 imacs
Powermac G4's

Think of the OS'es

9 (yes, I like 9, still), Jaguar, Panther, Tiger. I am deliberately leaving out Cheetah and Puma which were beta releases.

Name anything post 2006 that is even in the same league design/function wise as the above. Don't say Macbook Air, cause those are unupgradable Chinese McGarbage. Those machines had...soul. Yes, I am deliberately leaving out the G5's, which pretty much sucked. Lion, Mountain Lion? Suck. Snow Leopard? Doesn't suck as much, mostly cause it still supports PowerPC apps through Rosetta, IMHO.

Truth is, I'd rather own a Dell or Lenovo than any new Intel Mac. I've only owned two Intel macs and they were both garbage. Just one former fanboys opinion.

When I have to switch to x86 it will be going to AMD. I will also be using linux. I do not want to use a mac that is just an overpriced PC. I loved macs when they were special, when they were different, when apple actually thought different. But now AAPL is more focused on iCrap (iPhone, iPad, iPod) than producing quality computers. Now AMD is the company to switch to after PowerPC macs become too slow for use. With AMD you get to be part of a new rebel CPU architecture. Even though AMD is just a small company, much smaller than intell or nVidia, they can still produce great quality products.
:apple:

My thoughts exactly, I just retired my 1st gen MacBook unibody for a Pismo. Apple has no soul or innovation anymore. There is no joy in using their products. I switched to a Macintosh SE around the Windows 95/98 era and never looked back. I would trash pick a machine or get one from a thrift store or school basement until I could afford a more modern unit. When the iMac came out, I was using a PowerBook 180c with a c-clamp on the display to put pressure on the screen to make the bottom third work.
From the 180c, I moved to a Centris 610 and then I eventually got a PowerBook G3 Wallstreet.
From there it was an even deeper love. I got an old Blue and White G3 and followed up with a Gigabit Ethernet G4. Eventually rebuilding a Pismo with eBay parts. I used that dear Pismo until it died in a Jeep accident where she came crashing down onto the floorboard and met her death.
I replaced my Pismo with a 12" PowerBook G4 which was somewhat fun to use. That machine had some issues so I eventually bit the bullet and purchased a unibody MacBook. From day one, I hated the keyboard and two-tone paint scheme. Sure the display was crystal clear and the multi-touch trackpad was cool but it wasnt a Mac. It had a wintel processor. Several months ago, the trackpad became erratic and for the past year the battery has been needing replaced. That is a relatively short life for a Macintosh considering my SE and Classic still run flawlessly floppy disk drives and all.
So what did I replace my MacBook with? A 400Mhz Pismo. I love it, I should have done it sooner. I love the keyboard, I love the sexy black curves and I love the upside-down illuminated Apple on the lid. I love the dual battery option but most of all, I love the not wintel processor. I embrace the Think Different mentality, I dont care about Windows compatibility issues, if I wanted compatibility, I would have been a PC user way back in the SE years.
I want a machine with soul, with character, with beauty. Apple left that behind years ago.
I have since upgraded to an Other World Computing 120GB SSD, have an 802.11n USB adapter on its way as well as a USB 2.0/Bluetooth PCMCIA card. I also plan to get some replacement parts for stock to keep her alive as the prices are rising and they are becoming more and more scarce.
She runs at 400Mhz with 512MB of RAM (I have a 500Mhz daughtercard on the way) and the original battery has at least a two hour life.

She boots in 41 seconds with OS X 10.4.11, yes, 41 seconds!

As for everyday use against the MacBook, I have not looked back.

I remember when using a Macintosh was not only thinking differently, it was also about standing up to Redmond and living differently.

Here's to the Crazy Ones!

The misfits.

The rebels.

The troublemakers.

The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things differently.

They're not fond of rules.
And they have no respect for the status quo.

You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,
disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you can't do is ignore them.

Because they change things.

They invent. They imagine. They heal.
They explore. They create. They inspire.
They push the human race forward.

Maybe they have to be crazy.

How else can you stare at an empty canvas & see a work of art?
Or, sit in silence & hear a song that's never been written?
Or, gaze at a red planet & see a laboratory on wheels?

We make tools for these kinds of people.

While some see them as the crazy ones, we see genius.

"Because the people who are crazy enough to think they
can change the world, are the ones who do."

:apple:
 
My thoughts exactly, I just retired my 1st gen MacBook unibody for a Pismo. Apple has no soul or innovation anymore. There is no joy in using their products. I switched to a Macintosh SE around the Windows 95/98 era and never looked back. I would trash pick a machine or get one from a thrift store or school basement until I could afford a more modern unit. When the iMac came out, I was using a PowerBook 180c with a c-clamp on the display to put pressure on the screen to make the bottom third work.
From the 180c, I moved to a Centris 610 and then I eventually got a PowerBook G3 Wallstreet.
From there it was an even deeper love. I got an old Blue and White G3 and followed up with a Gigabit Ethernet G4. Eventually rebuilding a Pismo with eBay parts. I used that dear Pismo until it died in a Jeep accident where she came crashing down onto the floorboard and met her death.
I replaced my Pismo with a 12" PowerBook G4 which was somewhat fun to use. That machine had some issues so I eventually bit the bullet and purchased a unibody MacBook. From day one, I hated the keyboard and two-tone paint scheme. Sure the display was crystal clear and the multi-touch trackpad was cool but it wasnt a Mac. It had a wintel processor. Several months ago, the trackpad became erratic and for the past year the battery has been needing replaced. That is a relatively short life for a Macintosh considering my SE and Classic still run flawlessly floppy disk drives and all.
So what did I replace my MacBook with? A 400Mhz Pismo. I love it, I should have done it sooner. I love the keyboard, I love the sexy black curves and I love the upside-down illuminated Apple on the lid. I love the dual battery option but most of all, I love the not wintel processor. I embrace the Think Different mentality, I dont care about Windows compatibility issues, if I wanted compatibility, I would have been a PC user way back in the SE years.
I want a machine with soul, with character, with beauty. Apple left that behind years ago.
I have since upgraded to an Other World Computing 120GB SSD, have an 802.11n USB adapter on its way as well as a USB 2.0/Bluetooth PCMCIA card. I also plan to get some replacement parts for stock to keep her alive as the prices are rising and they are becoming more and more scarce.
She runs at 400Mhz with 512MB of RAM (I have a 500Mhz daughtercard on the way) and the original battery has at least a two hour life.

She boots in 41 seconds with OS X 10.4.11, yes, 41 seconds!

As for everyday use against the MacBook, I have not looked back.

I remember when using a Macintosh was not only thinking differently, it was also about standing up to Redmond and living differently.

In what twisted universe is a MacBook Pro worse than a 400Mhz Pismo from 1999? You can't seriously say that Apple computers have no soul anymore just because the "Wintel" processors. So what, the last PowerBook G4 was a wonderful computer but the first MacBook Pro, which looks identical (except for the iSight) is a lonely, soulless computer?
 
Not only the intel processors but the loss of class. I feel like ever since Apple has shifted from the underdog to the company known for flashy iPods and iPads and iWhatevers, their quality and soul has plummeted. Their products do not last near as long, and as other users on this thread have commented it is not the same company it used to be. Who remembers the flatscreen iMac or the eMac or the Mac Mini like the legendary all in one G3 or the Kanga or the SE and SE/30? What about the ads like the Orwellian 1984 run or the PowerBook G3 steamroller crushing PC laptops? The Pentium II riding on the back of the slug?
Ever since Apple hasn't needed to worry about keeping up and fighting the man, it is a different culture. Not one I want to be a part of.
Quality is down expandability is down, it is more of a make something smaller and ship it as soon as possible and hype it up as much as possible rather than making a bulletproof work of art.
Maybe I do live in a twisted world when I would rather use a Pismo than a stupid MacBook, but I dont think I am alone.
As for the PowerBook G4 models, I never really thought they were anything special either.
 
Not only the intel processors but the loss of class. I feel like ever since Apple has shifted from the underdog to the company known for flashy iPods and iPads and iWhatevers, their quality and soul has plummeted. Their products do not last near as long, and as other users on this thread have commented it is not the same company it used to be. Who remembers the flatscreen iMac or the eMac or the Mac Mini like the legendary all in one G3 or the Kanga or the SE and SE/30? What about the ads like the Orwellian 1984 run or the PowerBook G3 steamroller crushing PC laptops? The Pentium II riding on the back of the slug?
Ever since Apple hasn't needed to worry about keeping up and fighting the man, it is a different culture. Not one I want to be a part of.
Quality is down expandability is down, it is more of a make something smaller and ship it as soon as possible and hype it up as much as possible rather than making a bulletproof work of art.
Maybe I do live in a twisted world when I would rather use a Pismo than a stupid MacBook, but I dont think I am alone.
As for the PowerBook G4 models, I never really thought they were anything special either.

This really doesn't have much to do with apple changing. When apple moved to Intel it was because IBM would not make a newer processor that supported apple's needs. IBM makes the most power hungry powerful chips they can make, which is why we never had a G5 laptop. Intel on the other hand was catching up and had low power chip designs ready to go. Intel catching up with IBM all had to do with chip design. Basically they started realizing late P3 / early P4 that RISC was the way to go and started making it's newer chips in a RISC fashion.

If you were to look at an intel chip today it's pretty much a RISC processor with a CISC compatibility layer built in. In the early days this is why SPARC and POWER were so much faster than intel chips, but now they are all pretty much equivalent in their own respects.
 
Don't forget that Apple wanted to go 64-bit. The G5, while a 64-bit design, didn't perform very well when it came to 64-bit tasks and was considerably slower than contemporary Intell and AMD designs.
 
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