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chanoc said:
Yeah, well wait till this smoker blows smoke in your face. Call me a second-class citizen.... :mad:


Sorry to say however I have lived years with smokers and I have to say its unappealing to me since the entire house smells like smoke. 2nd hand smoke is even worse then actually smoking.

The smoke permeates into your clean clothing, and furniture. I say get rid of it. And to think many people smoke with young ones in the house. Disgusting indeed. :mad:
 
chanoc said:
Okay, now Bhutan is on my black-list of countries I will not visit. Just because you do not smoke, drink, consume fatty foods, do drugs, etc. does not mean you will live forever - get real people! :rolleyes:

Thats right who needs fresh clean air when you can stick your head in a smoke stack. :rolleyes:

Its not about living forever, its about living healthy without the need to strain the healthcare system, when the money could go towards much needed research. :)
 
chanoc said:
Okay, now Bhutan is on my black-list of countries I will not visit. Just because you do not smoke, drink, consume fatty foods, do drugs, etc. does not mean you will live forever - get real people! :rolleyes:
You smokers just don't get it. It's not about "living forever." It's about doing something that disturbs A LOT of people around you.

Eating fatty foods, drinking, and doing drugs doesn't directly affect the people around you. You all have no idea what it's like to go into a restaurant, bar, or any other public space where people smoke and have to inhale that s***, especially if you have allergies. We shouldn't have to avoid places like that just because you're all so pathetic that you can't curb your stupid, nasty addiction for an hour or so. Thank goodness smoking was finally outlawed in restaurants here in Florida.

combatcolin said:
Any action that relegates smokers to feel like 2nd class citizens gets my vote.
Ditto.

maya said:
The smoke permeates into your clean clothing, and furniture. I say get rid of it. And to think many people smoke with young ones in the house. Disgusting indeed.
Or in the *car*. These people should be arrested for child abuse.
 
Here is a reply I made to a smoking-related thread a while back. I repost it in the interest of putting a human face (in this case, mine) to the charged issue of smoking in society. I am equally annoyed with the indignant/militant crowd on both sides of the aisle (pro and anti). Fwiw.


...As you may have inferred, I am a smoker, about 3/4 of a pack a day. I have been a smoker for about 15 years and have quit twice matter-of-factly because my lifestyle did not have room for them. I eventually restarted, though. I also worked for a while as a direct-marketing rep for Camel (going around to bars, giving out complimentary packs), it was a fun, well-paying job, but I felt "dirty" doing it, but it facilitated alot of connections for my other work (VJ, Web-Design) and I got a lot of free drinks and entrance to free shows at music venues. Smokers loved me, and I made a lot of friends I would not have usually, and met many attractive women. Non-smokers were ambivalent or sometimes hostile to my presence. It was policy only to approach smokers BTW. So I am in pretty deep.

As far as my opinion on smoking, I am conflicted. On one hand, I find it disgusting, smelly, and unhealthy, which it obviously is. But many "vices" are not attractive for rational reasons, and although the addictive properties corraled me in, I quite enjoy smoking, which is why I have not quit, despite the considerable expense. My reasons are idiosyncratic.

I like that less people smoke these days, and that a lot of the "allure" has been taken out of the activity. I also support non-smoking in Workplaces and restaurants and in Public indoor spaces. I do like being able to smoke in a bar, but in the places which have laws to prevent it, I haven't minded as much as I thought I would. Barring it outside seems a little excessive.

I do not like the connection between littering and smoking, and I mike an effort to properly dispose of my butts, be it in the trash (after making sure it is out), in an ashtray (where available) or in my pockets or a small jar (if I have my tote-bag), which I feel is responsible.

With regards to second-hand smoking, I am not completely convinced of a causal link, although in a small, unventilated environment, is is hard to dispute that it can't be healthy. Despite my reluctance, I am willing to give the benefit-of-the-doubt to the premise. With the general decline in air quality, I feel auto-emissions are at least as bad as cigarette smoke, among others, but I guess you take any improvement where you can get it. However, if you are vehemently anti-smoking for these reasons, and drive often, or in a fuel-inefficient vehicle (like an SUV), or consume a large amount of energy, when other options are available, I feel that borders on hypocrisy..

As far as raising cigarette taxes, I am not sure...as a smoker, i would of course like them to remain cheap, and 75% of their current price is already taxes, so perhaps it is a little excessive at this point, but I am not really passionate about it one way or the other...if a reasonable argument is advanced for raising the tax, I will support it.

Smoking is a personal choice, and I do feel that smokers should not be unduly prosecuted, as we mainly hurt ourselves, as people do with alcohol and drugs and an assortment of other habits which also, to varying degrees impinge on the rights of others. That said, I agree with measures to limit the attractiveness of smoking to younger generations, which many modern measures do, so I am willing to give on the former for the benefit of the latter...

It would be nice if smokers were a dying breed in more ways than one...
Take as you will...
 
Some good points there, blackfox. I would only add these:

From my standpoint as a lifetime non-smoker, I really dislike the tobacco scent that all but the most casual smokers carry around with them. It stinks, and it's almost (though not quite) as bad as b.o. So I'm conflicted too. Though I do say you've got the right to smoke if you want, I also detest the way it makes people smell.

I've no problem with smoking outside, as long as it's done with sensitivity to others. Two areas I can think of where outdoor smoking might not be a good idea: close quarters (such as a football stadium or a restaurant patio), or the entrance to a building. Where I used to work, the smokers gathered right outside the door to greet employees and visitors with their grey haze. (And it was a hospital, for God's sake.)

High taxes as a disincentive to smoking is great, but even that can be relative. In Cleveland they're still paying a sin tax (cigs and alcohol) to fund the Browns' stadium. I just read in the paper the other day that smokers and drinkers as a whole pay more taxes than all the corporations in Cleveland. :eek: That's just wrong.

To people who think we non-smokers are too zealous: my wife is an asthmatic, and she's had attacks (for which she's been ambulanced) just from being in a small elevator with somebody who reeked of tobacco. There are people who are that sensitive. (My wife also has the same problem with idjits who lay on the perfume or cologne really thick.)
 
maya said:
Thats right who needs fresh clean air when you can stick your head in a smoke stack. :rolleyes:

Its not about living forever, its about living healthy without the need to strain the healthcare system, when the money could go towards much needed research. :)

My parent used to smoke, but didn't really notice the smell of the smoke until I got married and moved out. When I would return to visit then it would bother me.

Even worse was working at the VA. It wasn't until about 15 years ago that the VA became smoke free. The patients would smoke in their room if they got a written order from the doctor. Otherwise they had a lounge area where the guys would smoke. It was on the was to the elevators. Would have occasions where I had to enter the room for patient care.

I'm just very happy that now I'm in a smoke free environment.
 
edesignuk said:
That's splendid. Do I care? No. If you smoke when you know it is killing you then you don't deserve NHS care IMO. Course that's just my own opinion.

100% with you there, e. When you see people like Ray Castle (who never smoked in his life and died due to passive smoking) as I'm sure you have, you realise its a problem that affects everyone. Frankly, no one dies due to passive fat intake.

PS: I can't believe that some people here are standing up for something that is little more than an (abysmally) flavoured addictive roll of chemicals. At least you get high from illegal drugs - there's some reason there...
 
MOFS said:
PS: I can't believe that some people here are standing up for something that is little more than an (abysmally) flavoured addictive roll of chemicals. At least you get high from illegal drugs - there's some reason there...

Not everyone smokes cigs. Some people enjoy better tobacco in the forms of fine cigars and pipes. Tobacco use is not the healthiest thing to do, but quality pipes and cigars are much better. Of course, the sheep-minded anti-smokers will spew their lies and bogus statistics to say otherwise. Yeah, they lie and make up statistics! Many people can't think for themselves, so they eat the lies and piss all over the smokers.

It's easy to not give a damn about smokers having their rights stripped, but what happens when something you like ends up on the chopping block because some lying, elitist health nazi suddenly disagrees with it? Smoker's rights today, your's tomorrow. You can pass me off as some kind of nutty conspiracy theorist, but we shall see who has the last laugh in the future.

I guess the popular attitude (In America especially.) in the world is to sh*t on people just because you disagree with how they live their lives. Typical "me first" crap. "Let the government screw people--it doesn't affect me." Pathetic.

It's also hypocritical to say, "I'm glad smoking is banned in bars now!" Since when did alcoholics become conscious of their health? Actually, I wonder what's worse: tobacco or alcohol? Hmmm....

Bottom line: Be careful what you wish for. The obnoxious, elitist we-know-what's-good-for-you wonks wont stop their selfish crusade after tobacco (all forms) is outlawed. Everyone who cares about their personal freedoms should wake up before it's too late. Again, I'm not trying to be an alarmist, but take a good look at what is happening in this world.
 
edesignuk said:
Tobacco is taxed. But the burden on the NHS from somking related illness is massive.

The situation is very similar here in the US. A recent report compiled by the
Medical College of Ohio suggests that the US wastes around $150 billion dollars yearly on smoking related illness. While the US does not have a system akin to the NHS, the government does foot a bunch of the cost through Medicare, Social Security disability, care in VA hospitals, and other smaller programs. The rest of the cost comes from lost productivity and other economic factors.

It's such a shame to see this money wasted on preventable diseases. I would rather see the government spend it on schools or the NIH, or even give it back to the taxpayers.

MattG, I understand your line of thinking when you said that fatty foods, drugs, and drinking don't affect other people. However, I would argue that they affect people on a MASSIVE scale. Just start with fatty foods. The CDC reports that heart disease which results mainly from obesity is the #1 killer in America. The amount of money the US spends on smoking related illness is huge, and I shudder to think how much worse it is for illness relating to obesity. American taxpayers get hit much harder for obesity than they do for smoking.

Drugs and alcohol also cause health problems, but I would argue that primary negative effects come from the inconvenience caused to other people by the user. From families being torn apart (in the extreme cases) to having to care for that guy that drank too much at the bar (mundane inconvenience), drugs and alcohol have their negative effects.

Moderation is the key! :)
 
SteveC said:
Yep. I agree with edesignuk. This is a good move, and I'm kind of annoyed that I pay high insurance premiums because of other people's lack of discipline. (Smoking, being obese, etc.) And don't play the hereditary card. ;) People don't get fat from fasting.

And I am annoyed at those that think they know everything about how the human body and mind works.

I am also annoyed at paying higher car insurance because of the lack of regard for others on the road. For the damage done by larger vehicles hitting smaller ones.

I am annoyed at people depleting what little natural resources we have have because they want a large vehicle that gets less than 20 mph.

Should I be annoyed also at couples that have a history of birth defects in their family, that choose to roll the dice and have a child that demands major medical care?

Choices are made everyday, yes. Some good, some bad. Some MAY be under our control, some are not. But in the end, we have to have compassion for our fellow man regardless.
 
Brize said:
Smoking related illnesses cost the NHS £1.5 Billion per year. Tobacco tax revenues raise £9 Billion per year.

In all probability, a complete ban on tobacco products would necessitate a tax increase if the NHS were to be maintained.

Great numbers there. So smokers are already paying for their healthcare 6x over in the UK. It is that the government just does not spend the money properly. So easy to blame, and not seek solutions that work.
 
chanoc said:
Okay, now Bhutan is on my black-list of countries I will not visit.

Wow I bet they're devastated. :rolleyes:

---

Two things I don't like about smoking:
1) Personal: The next morning after a night in the pub I can't talk for about an hour, my whole throat is dry. The same happens if I stay for a weekend with smoking relatives, I'm fine in the day but coughing all night and dry the next morn. Painful dry.
2) General: Passive smoking. No-one deserves to be forced to inhale poisons and carcinogens against their will.

AppleMatt
 
AppleMatt said:
Wow I bet they're devastated. :rolleyes:

---

Two things I don't like about smoking:
1) Personal: The next morning after a night in the pub I can't talk for about an hour, my whole throat is dry. The same happens if I stay for a weekend with smoking relatives, I'm fine in the day but coughing all night and dry the next morn. Painful dry.
2) General: Passive smoking. No-one deserves to be forced to inhale poisons and carcinogens against their will.

AppleMatt

But then since we are talking about choices, why not find a pub that is smoke free? If more non-smokers stayed away, some pub would open to cater to your needs.
 
chanoc said:
Yeah, well wait till this smoker blows smoke in your face. Call me a second-class citizen.... :mad:
You blow smoke in my face and I should be perfectly entitled to turn round and punch you in the face.
 
Chip NoVaMac said:
You cut me off in traffic, then I should be able to ram you then? Actions and reactions.
chanoc said:
well wait till this smoker blows smoke in your face
So you think that I as a non-smoker, fully aware of the VERY real dangers of smoking should have to stand there while this arrogant **** breathes smoke in my face that we all know full well will kill you in the end?
 
edesignuk said:
Good for them. I still believe that anyone who is sick due to smoking should not be entitled to free care on the NHS, they brought it on themselves.

edesignuk said:
Tobacco is taxed. But the burden on the NHS from somking related illness is massive.

I don't know about that because smokers actually save money. Smokers have a high chance of dying fast when they are old whereas people who didn't smoke hold onto life much longer. It is proven that this by far outweighs the costs that smokers produce due to smoking induced illnesses.
Even though I hate smoking and I think it should be banned too no smokers would be a huge problem for the healthcare system.
 
Chip NoVaMac said:
But then since we are talking about choices, why not find a pub that is smoke free? If more non-smokers stayed away, some pub would open to cater to your needs.

What? That's not a choice, being forced to go out of my way to find another pub. Anyway, as you're not from the UK I'll cut some slack, the only pubs in the UK which disallow smoking are (very few) Wetherspoons, and it's usually just banned at the bar. This is the same chain of pubs FHM magazines readers voted the worse for service in the UK. So no...I'm not going to drive to the next city to hopefully stumble on one of them.

Re-read my post, all I was saying (from the bit "Personal:") was that I get a sore throat from it. No-where did I suggest my pub should ban smoking. I'm very friendly with the landlord, it would seriously damage his livelihood.

AppleMatt
 
daveL said:
I was under the impression that countries with socialized medicine went out of their way to tax tobacco products commensurate with the health costs associated with their use. I know Canada has very high taxes on tabacco just for this reason. It makes sense to me, although I don't know how much of the tax actually ends up in the NHS (or equivalent) coffers

Well, I don't really agree with edesignuk for this reason as well. They pay taxes.....HIGH taxes.....in some countries like Canada. They also pay regular taxes like non-smokers so that the cig taxes offset the cost of having these morons...um.....smokers around. Australia also charges very high taxes on cigarettes. I've never seen so few (young) people smoke in my life, and I've travelled to quite a few countries in my 24 years so far.

The only problem I have with smokers is that they're bad for MY health, and I definitely didn't ask for that, nor did I pay higher taxes. :eek:
 
edesignuk said:
Tobacco is taxed. But the burden on the NHS from somking related illness is massive.
A study done in the Czech Republic a few years ago said that smokers actually helped the economy and health service by paying far more in tax than the cost of treatment, and by dying earlier, saving on the cost of other diseases that occur with the onset of old age, and reducing pension payments from the state.
 
Smoking is a relic thing and is only legal because it came before the health hazards were known (although, come on, how could inhaling burning smoke be good for you?!). If cigarettes were only invented now, it would not be legalised.

Then you've got the fact that many smokers are addicted and were hooked ever since they were young, when there were adverts telling of the benefits, etc... Ok, so many people do quit, but, as a non-smoker myself, I don't think it's in my capacity to comment on how hard it would be to give up because I don't know myself.

The thing that upsets me is that if I go out to a bar or club on a Friday or Saturday, I cannot get over the amount of young people (<25) who smoke, particularly girls. In fact, apparently 1 in 3 16 year old girls in the UK admit to regularly smoking (compared with 1 in 6 boys aged 16). There really is no excuse. And I don't think "social smoking" makes it ok.

I applaud Bhutan, although I hope this doesn't result in smokers there getting excluded out of society. I've noticed, here in Britain, it's started to become less socially acceptable to smoke in public (although seemingly not in bars and clubs). I really wish England's smoking laws would be improved - we need bans in ALL pubs, etc, not just some (not even coming into effect until about 2008!). Wales and Scotland are going for the all out public smoking ban so why not England?

Somehow, I don't think smoking will ever become illegal altogether in the UK.. :(
 
Apple Hobo said:
Not everyone smokes cigs. Some people enjoy better tobacco in the forms of fine cigars and pipes. Tobacco use is not the healthiest thing to do, but quality pipes and cigars are much better. Of course, the sheep-minded anti-smokers will spew their lies and bogus statistics to say otherwise. Yeah, they lie and make up statistics! Many people can't think for themselves, so they eat the lies and piss all over the smokers.

It's easy to not give a damn about smokers having their rights stripped, but what happens when something you like ends up on the chopping block because some lying, elitist health nazi suddenly disagrees with it? Smoker's rights today, your's tomorrow. You can pass me off as some kind of nutty conspiracy theorist, but we shall see who has the last laugh in the future.

I love the irony of this statement. It was actually the nazis that first found the link between smoking an all of its adverse health effect. And now the tobacco industry admits the risks . Yes there are environmental and genetic factors to these diseases. But not smoking or being in a smokey environment is preventable. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I guess the popular attitude (In America especially.) in the world is to sh*t on people just because you disagree with how they live their lives. Typical "me first" crap. "Let the government screw people--it doesn't affect me." Pathetic.

Frankly it would be far easier for the governments to leave the tobacco to its own devices. And by the way "your lives" affect "my lives". In innumerable examples - pubs and bars, insurance, - smoking affects everyone. Smokers and non-smokers alike. Just go to your local hospital ward and see the patients using oxygen tanks on ventilators because their lungs are so full with rubbish that they can't breath properly for themselves.

It's also hypocritical to say, "I'm glad smoking is banned in bars now!" Since when did alcoholics become conscious of their health? Actually, I wonder what's worse: tobacco or alcohol? Hmmm....

Tobacco. Drinking red wine is thought to be good for you in moderation. Furthermore, I resent being called an alcoholic just because I go to bars or pubs. Unlike the vast majority of smokers, I'm not addicted to drinking. And anyway - remember who stays in bars for the longest periods of time? Thats right. Its the people who work behind the bars. Thats why in the UK (as I'm sure the reasoning is in the US and Eire) smoking in public places is being(/has been) phased out. Don't say that they should work somewhere else to avoid smoke - people take whatever jobs they can to earn as much cash as possible to pay the bills.

Bottom line: Be careful what you wish for. The obnoxious, elitist we-know-what's-good-for-you wonks wont stop their selfish crusade after tobacco (all forms) is outlawed. Everyone who cares about their personal freedoms should wake up before it's too late. Again, I'm not trying to be an alarmist, but take a good look at what is happening in this world.

I care about my personal freedoms. Woop de do we don't have a written constitution here. Freedom is all about being free, yes, but I'm sure you're not unhappy about your lack of freedom to grab a gun/ weapon/ car and go on a killing spree.
 
i cant stand tobbaco i think every shred of the stuff should be incinerated, it annoys me when i find out people i know have started smokeing because i know they will die from it, they tend to try and rationalize it but i know it's the addiction talking. it just makes me want to lock them in a room for a week to and force them to quit.
 
Hector said:
i cant stand tobbaco i think every shred of the stuff should be incinerated, it annoys me when i find out people i know have started smokeing because i know they will die from it, they tend to try and rationalize it but i know it's the addiction talking. it just makes me want to lock them in a room for a week to and force them to quit.
I don't wish to be picky but every shred of it is being incinerated :D , I am a smoker but have no wish to inflict my habit on anyone else. I'm fully aware that it's deadly but it's my choice. I don't light up anywhere I'm not allowed to and when they ban smoking in pubs (and they will) I'll fully comply. Why do I do it? I can't justify it so I'm not going to. You cannot, by definition, justify an addiction. And no, I don't want to quit :) peace
 
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