iPad The Future of the iPad Does Not Include A Traditional Filesystem

[bensisko]

Here is the deal oldmacs, you either need to change your workflow on the iPad, in order to do what you want to do, or you need to go to a different platform that does it the way you want. You keep telling us how all these other platforms have the option, but iOS doesn't. Plenty of times we all have explained how to do what you want on the iPad. And you tell us it is wrong, and it needs to be your way or forget it.

The iPad is what it is at this point. Either except how it works or, find a platform that does it your way move on. Leave feedback for Apple on what features you want to see. Speak with your money, and don't buy an iPad if it doesn't suit your needs. But, if you really want to use the iPad for the things you tells us you do, then you need to adapt. Not saying your ideas won't get implemented down the road...but right now adapting your workflow is the answer to your issues.

Expertly said!

 

[oldmacs]

Here is the deal oldmacs, you either need to change your workflow on the iPad, in order to do what you want to do, or you need to go to a different platform that does it the way you want. You keep telling us how all these other platforms have the option, but iOS doesn't. Plenty of times we all have explained how to do what you want on the iPad. And you tell us it is wrong, and it needs to be your way or forget it.

The iPad is what it is at this point. Either except how it works or, find a platform that does it your way move on. Leave feedback for Apple on what features you want to see. Speak with your money, and don't buy an iPad if it doesn't suit your needs. But, if you really want to use the iPad for the things you tells us you do, then you need to adapt. Not saying your ideas won't get implemented down the road...but right now adapting your workflow is the answer to your issues.

Well see heres the thing. I'm simply saying on here what I think the iPad is limited in doing, whilst others are saying that its perfect and that managing files is very easy, when its obviously quite clunky. You haven't explained anything I don't know how to do on the iPad. I'm very across how things work, I regularly provide iPad training with clients, which necessitates using and understanding a wide variety of apps and workflows on the iPad. I think our ideas of simple differ. I find making copies of files which have to be exported back out again, just to achieve the simple ability of putting files from one assignment into one folder quite clunky.

I disagree with needing to adapt. I'd be over the moon if there was a non-clunky way to do this stuff, I would adapt. The answer to my issues right now is there is no answer till Apple does (or doesn't) improve these things on the iPad. Until then, I'll continue to submit feedback and wish on behalf of myself (and the many others) who want an easier way to do these things that Apple eventually implements one.

I fail to see the point of moving to different workflows that are not simpler, that are not easier and are not better - different is not equal to better. There are plenty of things I think the iPad does differently that are better, I would not have bought one if that were not the case, but this sort of stuff they do not, which is a crying shame when they release hardware such as the iPad Pros.

 

[Capt T]

Do either offer integration with iCloud Drive? Can you open files in there directly into Pages or other applications? Can you save a video or photo straight off the web into either? My experience (With both of them) is that you can not. I find it fair clunkier using Apps like that, and I've tried heaps of them over the years and continue to try them. I can not simply move a document I start in pages to documents (the app) so that it can be organised by project, then continue working on it in pages, without ending up with copies, which is an inefficient way of doing things.

The basis for what I request is already there in iCloud Drive, just needs the ability to use local storage as standard as an option, have an option to automatically download all files to the device itself (rather than downloading them on request), the ability to directly save files off other apps (such as from safari), and the ability to save videos (that are made downloadable), photos (options rather than the photos app) and audio. Also the ability to search would be great, including in documents from both the iCloud Drive search bar and spotlight.

I use Dropbox for business, and office 365. I edit files directly from Dropbox, I don't use iCloud or pages. Office 365 has the option for me to edit directly in documents or Dropbox...so that is my workflow. I mostly use documents for offline. And the way I do edits is with a dated file name, so end up with copies of files all the time, as it is a workflow that works with my team. As I stated earlier, I can save into either a video or any other file out of safari into documents or goodreader, or any other number of apps.

I have had an iPad since day one. I figured out the workflow that worked with the device. Goodreader was what I used, at the time. Switched to documents when I got the 12.9" iPad. They both work great as a way to organize, and easily open files from safari or other apps.

As I said, you need to adapt your workflow if you want to use the iPad. Or find a device that will do it your way.
[doublepost=1466351102][/doublepost]

Well see heres the thing. I'm simply saying on here what I think the iPad is limited in doing, whilst others are saying that its perfect and that managing files is very easy, when its obviously quite clunky. You haven't explained anything I don't know how to do on the iPad. I'm very across how things work, I regularly provide iPad training with clients, which necessitates using and understanding a wide variety of apps and workflows on the iPad. I think our ideas of simple differ. I find making copies of files which have to be exported back out again, just to achieve the simple ability of putting files from one assignment into one folder quite clunky.

I disagree with needing to adapt. I'd be over the moon if there was a non-clunky way to do this stuff, I would adapt. The answer to my issues right now is there is no answer till Apple does (or doesn't) improve these things on the iPad. Until then, I'll continue to submit feedback and wish on behalf of myself (and the many others) who want an easier way to do these things that Apple eventually implements one.

I fail to see the point of moving to different workflows that are not simpler, that are not easier and are not better - different is not equal to better. There are plenty of things I think the iPad does differently that are better, I would not have bought one if that were not the case, but this sort of stuff they do not, which is a crying shame when they release hardware such as the iPad Pros.

I find the workflow on the iPad very simple. Different strokes. But then again, I am used to working in a server environment, with multiple copies. So cloud based file system works, because I work with a team. As do a lot of people out working. We need a central repository for our files that everyone can access.

 

[oldmacs]

I have had an iPad since day one. I figured out the workflow that worked with the device. Goodreader was what I used, at the time. Switched to documents when I got the 12.9" iPad. They both work great as a way to organize, and easily open files from safari or other apps.

As I said, you need to adapt your workflow if you want to use the iPad. Or find a device that will do it your way.

And I'm glad it works for you (And others), but it doesn't work for me (and others), it could work with some small changes to iCloud Drive, but now that sort of thing is clunky and counter intuitive.

People on here are against any sort of change and that is what I don't understand. There are plenty of people who find the iPad clunky to use for this sort of thing, and especially given Apple's marketing pitch of the pro as a device to replace Pcs, I find increasingly clients of mine who seek to use their iPads to do work become baffled by something that was easy on the desktop. I'm not saying the iPad in its current form does not work for anyone, because it obviously does.

This is the same stuff that went on prior to Split screen multitasking being introduced, "Blah workflow is much better than two apps at once", "you just need to adjust" and so on. There is nothing wrong with desiring Apple to improve things. If not one complained you'd never get anywhere, we'd still have the iPad 1.

 

[Night Spring]

I can not simply move a document I start in pages to documents (the app) so that it can be organised by project, then continue working on it in pages, without ending up with copies,

This can be done, actually, though it's perhaps not obvious, and you'd probably say it's clunky.

Basically, set up your folders / files in Documents, GoodReader, FileBrowser, or whatever. Then, open Pages, and click the "+" button as if you were creating a new document. This brings up a list of "locations" you can open files from. If your file management app is not on the list, click on the "..." at the end of the list, and you should be able to add your app. Once you pick a "location" you can navigate through the folders to find the file you want to open. Any edits you make will be saved back to the "location" it came from, without creating a separate copy in Pages.

To move a file you created in Pages to another location, click on the share arrow, click "move to," then click on the document you want to move, then navigate to where you want to save it.

 

[oldmacs]

I find the workflow on the iPad very simple. Different strokes. But then again, I am used to working in a server environment, with multiple copies. So cloud based file system works, because I work with a team. As do a lot of people out working. We need a central repository for our files that everyone can access.

And at the same time, plenty of people do not find it simple. I hope in the future Apple can cater to both. I hate ending up with multiple copies of documents, its very poor organisation for what I do.

 

[Night Spring]

There is nothing wrong with desiring Apple to improve things

True enough, and Apple HAS made a lot of improvements to the iPad over the years. If the things you want didn't get added this year, maybe they'll get added next year. But it's also clear that Apple has different priorities than what you want. I mean, I was watching the WWDC keynote, and all that improvements to the message app? If Apple spent half that effort on a file system, they could have probably created all the features you want. Obviously, they felt that making iMessage more fun was more important.

 

[oldmacs]

This can be done, actually, though it's perhaps not obvious, and you'd probably say it's clunky.

Basically, set up your folders / files in Documents, GoodReader, FileBrowser, or whatever. Then, open Pages, and click the "+" button as if you were creating a new document. This brings up a list of "locations" you can open files from. If your file management app is not on the list, click on the "..." at the end of the list, and you should be able to add your app. Once you pick a "location" you can navigate through the folders to find the file you want to open. Any edits you make will be saved back to the "location" it came from, without creating a separate copy in Pages.

To move a file you created in Pages to another location, click on the share arrow, click "move to," then click on the document you want to move, then navigate to where you want to save it.

Yeah I know this method, but its not exactly the most intuitive - you still end up with multiple copies of things and a lot more tapping than you would if Apple were to integrate it better, with some good thought into achieving that with as few clicks as possible. I just see it anti the point of an iPad. Plus you loose the ability to use 'Versions'. If you were able to change the default storage provider for all apps that would be great also - that would mean Apple didn't have to do anything, if for example when you opened pages it showed your documents files, and you could directly save and open from there automatically.
[doublepost=1466352527][/doublepost]

True enough, and Apple HAS made a lot of improvements to the iPad over the years. If the things you want didn't get added this year, maybe they'll get added next year. But it's also clear that Apple has different priorities than what you want. I mean, I was watching the WWDC keynote, and all that improvements to the message app? If Apple spent half that effort on a file system, they could have probably created all the features you want. Obviously, they felt that making iMessage more fun was more important.

The iPad has come a long way, mine had iOS 4 on it when I bought it, now iOS 9. Even in terms of this stuff the changes they made in 1. iCloud with iOS 5, 2. storage providers & extensions in iOS 8 and then iCloud Drive app in iOS 9. I just feel it has been very slow progress, and for whatever reason, felt that with the iPad Pro and all the focus on 'productivity and Pc replacement' that he iPad would get a real look in with iOS 10, which it truly hasn't.I know Apple has different priorities, I wish they had some priority for this stuff, as they could truly further transform the iPad Pro into a powerhouse, and continue the great work they started with in iOS 9. The iPhone is where the money is so Apple most likely places its priorities on features that make the most sense on the iPhone and iPad (iMessages for example) rather than things that make sense on the iPad only (multitasking for example).

I think my frustration is that for years i've told people "Oh Apple will focus on the iPad soon, they'll make it better soon" and after 5 years you feel that they never will. As said, yes they have done some of it, but I await a version of iOS that focuses heavily on the iPad in a lot of areas.

 

[Night Spring]

you still end up with multiple copies of things

How?

 

[oldmacs]

How?

One in documents ( the app) and one in pages.

 

[Night Spring]

One in documents ( the app) and one in pages.

Nope, if you do it the way I explained, you end up with only one copy -- in Documents.

 

[oldmacs]

Nope, if you do it the way I explained, you end up with only one copy -- in Documents.

Yes sorry you are right - I forgot that you had to move it from the main pages screen, it's when you move it from inside the app with 'open in other app' that you get the issue.

I will give you the point that that means no copies, but I would still describe that as a more complex method than it should be.

 

[sparksd]

Nope, if you do it the way I explained, you end up with only one copy -- in Documents.

Maybe I'm missing something, too. I did follow your example and opened a text file within Pages that I got from Documents. Within Pages I added a line to that document I imported from Documents. This document now shows up in both Documents and Pages with the modified version only in Pages. What should I have done differently to keep only one version - now modified - only in Documents?

edit - I just saw the recent post explaining.

 

[jeremiah256]

True enough, and Apple HAS made a lot of improvements to the iPad over the years. If the things you want didn't get added this year, maybe they'll get added next year. But it's also clear that Apple has different priorities than what you want. I mean, I was watching the WWDC keynote, and all that improvements to the message app? If Apple spent half that effort on a file system, they could have probably created all the features you want. Obviously, they felt that making iMessage more fun was more important.

One of the other items Apple has been working on is a new file system that will be used on all their iOS devices, watchOS, tvOS, and Macs. Called APFS, this may be the answer to what so many are looking for but won't be out until next year. As you said, their priorities, especially for security, are different and Apple is not going to just throw out anything, especially with the drama they are getting from the FBI and China.

 

[bensisko]

The iPad has come a long way, mine had iOS 4 on it when I bought it, now iOS 9. Even in terms of this stuff the changes they made in 1. iCloud with iOS 5, 2. storage providers & extensions in iOS 8 and then iCloud Drive app in iOS 9. I just feel it has been very slow progress, and for whatever reason, felt that with the iPad Pro and all the focus on 'productivity and Pc replacement' that he iPad would get a real look in with iOS 10, which it truly hasn't.I know Apple has different priorities, I wish they had some priority for this stuff, as they could truly further transform the iPad Pro into a powerhouse, and continue the great work they started with in iOS 9. The iPhone is where the money is so Apple most likely places its priorities on features that make the most sense on the iPhone and iPad (iMessages for example) rather than things that make sense on the iPad only (multitasking for example).

I think my frustration is that for years i've told people "Oh Apple will focus on the iPad soon, they'll make it better soon" and after 5 years you feel that they never will. As said, yes they have done some of it, but I await a version of iOS that focuses heavily on the iPad in a lot of areas.

So... Basically you're frustrated because of your own misdirection.

I mean, seriously, with everything you've posted, you make it clear that you have expectations of Apple (which they have NEVER promised) which are of your own invention and Apple hasn't done it.

And I'm glad it works for you (And others), but it doesn't work for me (and others), it could work with some small changes to iCloud Drive, but now that sort of thing is clunky and counter intuitive.

People on here are against any sort of change and that is what I don't understand. There are plenty of people who find the iPad clunky to use for this sort of thing, and especially given Apple's marketing pitch of the pro as a device to replace Pcs, I find increasingly clients of mine who seek to use their iPads to do work become baffled by something that was easy on the desktop. I'm not saying the iPad in its current form does not work for anyone, because it obviously does.

This is the same stuff that went on prior to Split screen multitasking being introduced, "Blah workflow is much better than two apps at once", "you just need to adjust" and so on. There is nothing wrong with desiring Apple to improve things. If not one complained you'd never get anywhere, we'd still have the iPad 1.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that, as passionate as you are for your change, there are people who don't want it. Just because you're passionate about it and think you're right, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do (and it doesn't mean it's NOT the right thing to do).

Here's the thing - There's a BIG difference between:
"I bought the iPad because it does what I want it to do. I love it for what it is. If Apple was to implement __x__ feature, I could use it in these other areas, but I'm not counting on Appple to do something it hasn't promised to do."
-- And --
"I bought the iPad because I expected to be able to use it the exact same way that I use my Windows computer. Now that I find out I can't do it, I'm mad that Apple didn't implement features I expected to make this useful to me."

I bought the iPad based on What it is now - and that's what I liked about it. If the iPad didn't do something that is critical to me or what I wanted to do, then I would buy another product - That's exactly why I bought the Surface Pro 3 a year and a half ago - I needed a tablet with a pen that I could use for drawing and the iPad did not meet my needs in that category. I didn't complain about it, I just bought the product that best fit my needs. I still used the iPad for tons of other stuff, but drawing wasn't one of them. When the iPad Pro, with the Apple Pencil, came out, that became the device that fit my workflow and need best (in fact, it fit my workflow better because it wasn't as 'complex' as the Surface Pro).

If anything, I was as unhappy as you are (maybe more) about the state of things when Microsoft came out with Windows 10 - because I bought into the Surface and the whole idea of Windows 8.1 (which I liked). What did I do? I embraced the iPad Pro when it came out.

The other problem with the Filesystem crowd is this: There's not even agreement as to what it should be. There are many different opinions, which range from:
- Just a common folder (could be invisible to the user) to hold files in the same place on the device so there are no duplicates.
- Same as above, but with the user able to access them.
- A File Browser application, with the ability to create folders and sub folders, and save-as options in the application.
- A full-on Finder (like in Mac OS X) with the same functionality.

So... Which is it? You'll get different answers from different people.
Next step - what other features do we bring in from the Desktop? Well, we need to add support for a trackpad and a mouse. We'll also need the ability to run desktop applications. Also - we need to add USB ports, an SD card reader, etc.

The biggest point is this: There are other products out there that have Desktop features that would work better with what you want. There's nothing else even remotely like the iPad out there.

 

[oldmacs]

Why is it so hard for you to understand that, as passionate as you are for your change, there are people who don't want it. Just because you're passionate about it and think you're right, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do (and it doesn't mean it's NOT the right thing to do).

People like you seem to claim that any sort of change whatsoever in allowing users to manage how their files are stored will negatively impact on your use go the iPad, yet I've said over and over that I would want any implemented changes to be an opt in/opt out experience, which is entirely doable.

Here's the thing - There's a BIG difference between:
"I bought the iPad because it does what I want it to do. I love it for what it is. If Apple was to implement __x__ feature, I could use it in these other areas, but I'm not counting on Appple to do something it hasn't promised to do."
-- And --
"I bought the iPad because I expected to be able to use it the exact same way that I use my Windows computer. Now that I find out I can't do it, I'm mad that Apple didn't implement features I expected to make this useful to me."

You keep missing the point. A simpler way to manage files it not "Wanting to use the iPad in the same way I use my windows computer", its simply desiring to do something in a more simple way. When I bought the iPad it did do what I wanted mainly, but I always wanted less complexity in file management given the number of clients I've had over the years who have expressed displeasure over the iPad in that fashion.

Basically if Apple wants to label a product as a 'pro product' and raise the price, then I will expect them to make it easily usable for a wide range of workflows. (And not in a way that alienates people).

I bought the iPad based on What it is now - and that's what I liked about it. If the iPad didn't do something that is critical to me or what I wanted to do, then I would buy another product - That's exactly why I bought the Surface Pro 3 a year and a half ago - I needed a tablet with a pen that I could use for drawing and the iPad did not meet my needs in that category. I didn't complain about it, I just bought the product that best fit my needs. I still used the iPad for tons of other stuff, but drawing wasn't one of them. When the iPad Pro, with the Apple Pencil, came out, that became the device that fit my workflow and need best (in fact, it fit my workflow better because it wasn't as 'complex' as the Surface Pro).

If anything, I was as unhappy as you are (maybe more) about the state of things when Microsoft came out with Windows 10 - because I bought into the Surface and the whole idea of Windows 8.1 (which I liked). What did I do? I embraced the iPad Pro when it came out.

I also bought the iPad for what it was in 2011 - but that doesn't stop me from wanting more. Your attitude would have the iPad never advance past the iPad 1 (Oh the iPad didn't have multitasking so I bought x product) - essentially, nobody complains then nothing improves.

The other problem with the Filesystem crowd is this: There's not even agreement as to what it should be. There are many different opinions, which range from:
- Just a common folder (could be invisible to the user) to hold files in the same place on the device so there are no duplicates.
- Same as above, but with the user able to access them.
- A File Browser application, with the ability to create folders and sub folders, and save-as options in the application.
- A full-on Finder (like in Mac OS X) with the same functionality.

So... Which is it? You'll get different answers from different people.
Next step - what other features do we bring in from the Desktop? Well, we need to add support for a trackpad and a mouse. We'll also need the ability to run desktop applications. Also - we need to add USB ports, an SD card reader, etc.

The biggest point is this: There are other products out there that have Desktop features that would work better with what you want. There's nothing else even remotely like the iPad out there.

We are not the 'Filesystem' crowd as literally no one wants access to the iPads file system, we are the 'better/easier file management crowd. People have different needs and wants, but I think most of us would just be happy with Apple actually putting some thought into making the current situation simpler, and just expanding what iCloud Drive is capable of would be a simple way of doing that, and since iCloud Drive can be turned off, it doesn't make it any more difficult for anyone else.

I don't agree with the mouse for the iPad as it would discourage developers from making advances in software for touch screens. I would support the ability to access an external USB drive with some sort of drive API - again there would be NO requirement for anyone to use it. Does Apple's support of the Apple Pencil or smart keyboard force you to use either? No it does not.
[doublepost=1466388015][/doublepost]

One of the other items Apple has been working on is a new file system that will be used on all their iOS devices, watchOS, tvOS, and Macs. Called APFS, this may be the answer to what so many are looking for but won't be out until next year. As you said, their priorities, especially for security, are different and Apple is not going to just throw out anything, especially with the drama they are getting from the FBI and China.

APFS is not an answer to anything - it is a different 'File System', which will be accessed through exactly the same file management of today. The whole premise of this thread is incorrect, a file system is how a computer structures and organises the storing of its files, where as file management is the interfaces that the user interacts with in order to organise files. The iPad does have a traditional file system, it doesn't have traditional file management. You could change the file system as many times as possible, but the way the user interacts with files would stay the same.

 

[bensisko]

People like you seem to claim that any sort of change whatsoever in allowing users to manage how their files are stored will negatively impact on your use go the iPad, yet I've said over and over that I would want any implemented changes to be an opt in/opt out experience, which is entirely doable.

Um, that exists. It's called "3rd Party Apps". Just because you don't like the solution doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Anything more than that, and it's not going to be "opt in/out".

You keep missing the point.

Just because I don't agree with your point doesn't mean I'm missing it.

A simpler way to manage files it not "Wanting to use the iPad in the same way I use my windows computer", its simply desiring to do something in a more simple way.
When I bought the iPad it did do what I wanted mainly, but I always wanted less complexity in file management given the number of clients I've had over the years who have expressed displeasure over the iPad in that fashion.

Your definition of 'complexity' varies greatly from mine. Going back to "managing files" is MORE complex, not less.

Basically if Apple wants to label a product as a 'pro product' and raise the price, then I will expect them to make it easily usable for a wide range of workflows. (And not in a way that alienates people).

NOT going to get into the "is it Pro" argument. It's a product name, move on.

I also bought the iPad for what it was in 2011 - but that doesn't stop me from wanting more. Your attitude would have the iPad never advance past the iPad 1 (Oh the iPad didn't have multitasking so I bought x product) - essentially, nobody complains then nothing improves.

Give me a freakin break!
1 - Again, your definition of "advance" and mine are very different. I don't think it's an "advancement" to manage files manually (just like I didn't think it was an 'advancement' bringing back the Start Menu in Windows).
2 - Your "nobody complains, nothing improves" is just plain wrong. There are PLENTY of ways things advance, not just from complaining. Advancement comes (by FAR) from competition. You could have ZERO people complaining about Apple's products yet they would still advance or they would die out. Advancements come in the form of new technologies, in the form of social change, etc, etc, etc.
3 - Just because I don't agree with your particular 'advancement' is FAR from me not wanting the iPad to advance.
4 - By the way, the point is you can't buy a product for what you HOPE it would be. Buy it for what it is. If it changes, fantastic! If not, you're not disappointed (as you clearly are).

We are not the 'Filesystem' crowd as literally no one wants access to the iPads file system,

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Seriously??? Yes, there are.

we are the 'better/easier file management crowd.

Fine - I'll call you the "File Management crowd".

People have different needs and wants, but I think most of us would just be happy with Apple actually putting some thought into making the current situation simpler, and just expanding what iCloud Drive is capable of would be a simple way of doing that, and since iCloud Drive can be turned off, it doesn't make it any more difficult for anyone else.

... and if this became available for the core OS, you seriously think Developers are going to develop TWO ways of accessing files? I don't. Some might, but most will default to one or the other - which means we will both be complaining because some developers will default to the way it is (making you mad) and others will default to the way you want it to be (making me mad).

I don't agree with the mouse for the iPad as it would discourage developers from making advances in software for touch screens. I would support the ability to access an external USB drive with some sort of drive API - again there would be NO requirement for anyone to use it. Does Apple's support of the Apple Pencil or smart keyboard force you to use either? No it does not.

Well, you don't agree that the mouse should be supported - do you want to jump into the threads with people calling for mouse support and say that there? Because now you're arguing for a "simpler" system for them, one that they passionately argue for.

APFS is not an answer to anything - it is a different 'File System', which will be accessed through exactly the same file management of today. The whole premise of this thread is incorrect, a file system is how a computer structures and organises the storing of its files, where as file management is the interfaces that the user interacts with in order to organise files. The iPad does have a traditional file system, it doesn't have traditional file management. You could change the file system as many times as possible, but the way the user interacts with files would stay the same.

The premise is not incorrect - the idea that's been argued has been consistent, even if the terminology hasn't been.

 

[MullerC]

I wish there was a way to just ignore/hide comments from specific users, this topic did start out with some useful tips and ideas which i have adopted.

 

[oldmacs]

Um, that exists. It's called "3rd Party Apps". Just because you don't like the solution doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Anything more than that, and it's not going to be "opt in/out".

I've said over and over, the 3rd party app solution is NOT ideal, it is MORE complex and it is inflexible.

Your definition of 'complexity' varies greatly from mine. Going back to "managing files" is MORE complex, not less.

There are ways to do this so that no one has to manage their files if they don't want to. Did the introduction of iCloud Drive force you to manage your files again?

Give me a freakin break!
1 - Again, your definition of "advance" and mine are very different. I don't think it's an "advancement" to manage files manually (just like I didn't think it was an 'advancement' bringing back the Start Menu in Windows).
2 - Your "nobody complains, nothing improves" is just plain wrong. There are PLENTY of ways things advance, not just from complaining. Advancement comes (by FAR) from competition. You could have ZERO people complaining about Apple's products yet they would still advance or they would die out. Advancements come in the form of new technologies, in the form of social change, etc, etc, etc.
3 - Just because I don't agree with your particular 'advancement' is FAR from me not wanting the iPad to advance.
4 - By the way, the point is you can't buy a product for what you HOPE it would be. Buy it for what it is. If it changes, fantastic! If not, you're not disappointed (as you clearly are).

1. Given that many are ALREADY using 3rd party apps to manage files because they need to, apple introducing features that would make that easier WOULD be an advance.

2. Complaint and annoyance with a current solution is one of the major way things advance.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Seriously??? Yes, there are.

The majority are not asking for root file access, again just a better way of managing files.

... and if this became available for the core OS, you seriously think Developers are going to develop TWO ways of accessing files? I don't. Some might, but most will default to one or the other - which means we will both be complaining because some developers will default to the way it is (making you mad) and others will default to the way you want it to be (making me mad).

No no no! I am not proposing two completely different systems, just one where half the controls can be hidden when the user does not have it turned on. I want Apple to implement it like they've done with iCloud Drive. You can still use iCloud Drive without managing your files yourself, but you can also use iCloud Drive to manage files if you want. Make it so things can still save automatically, but if the user wants to also manage themselves they should also be able to do that.

Well, you don't agree that the mouse should be supported - do you want to jump into the threads with people calling for mouse support and say that there? Because now you're arguing for a "simpler" system for them, one that they passionately argue for.

I don't think the mouse should be supported because I think it could lead to interfaces being designed around a non touch interface. Expanded file management where the same system has multiple levels of interactivity would not have act sort of effect.

Anyway arguing this any further is absolutely pointless as its going around and around in circles, we obviously fundamentally disagree on this.
[doublepost=1466393411][/doublepost]

I wish there was a way to just ignore/hide comments from specific users, this topic did start out with some useful tips and ideas which i have adopted.

If you want to hide my comments, press my name and press ignore and hey presto.

 

[jeremiah256]

@oldmacs, do you realize you are fighting against using third party apps on a device that is designed from the ground up to rely on third party apps? Again, going back to the original post, Steve's ideal work environment was not caring about file management, not caring about backing up. Everything just works. Contrary to what you think, Apple is indeed, betting iOS is the future and so far, people like me are proving them right, throwing money at them, for making our lives. If iOS is not for you, that's fine. Both Windows 10 and Android provide exactly what you're looking for and are fine alternatives. But please, don't try and tell people they're wrong if they've adapted their work flows to the device rather than trying to force the device to be something it was never designed to be.

I'm glad that I don't have to give a hoot where my files are. I know they are a quick search away, soon to be a quick command to Siri away, from appearing on whatever Apple device I happen to be using. I'm with @bensisko, outsourcing file management to an AI powered cloud feels like the future to me.

 

[oldmacs]

@oldmacs, do you realize you are fighting against using third party apps on a device that is designed from the ground up to rely on third party apps? Again, going back to the original post, Steve's ideal work environment was not caring about file management, not caring about backing up. Everything just works. Contrary to what you think, Apple is indeed, betting iOS is the future and so far, people like me are proving them right, throwing money at them, for making our lives. If iOS is not for you, that's fine. Both Windows 10 and Android provide exactly what you're looking for and are fine alternatives. But please, don't try and tell people they're wrong if they've adapted their work flows to the device rather than trying to force the device to be something it was never designed to be.

I'm glad that I don't have to give a hoot where my files are. I know they are a quick search away, soon to be a quick command to Siri away, from appearing on whatever Apple device I happen to be using. I'm with @bensisko, outsourcing file management to an AI powered cloud feels like the future to me.

3rd party apps are great for many situations app management is done one of them, as it becomes an annoying task. iOS was not designed from the ground up to use 3rd party apps. We didn't even get the app store till iPhone OS 2, and 3rd party apps don't have the level of integration for many different things. Delete the iOS stock mail app and you can't open links from other apps for example. 3rd party apps play huge part in doing tasks that are semi integrated, but when you're working across multiple apps it falls apart. If a 3rd party app made this sort of thing super easy then of course I'd use it, but it doesn't.

Everything would 'just work' if Apple had a long hard think about making it easy to do things with files. It is good practice for example to keep files from one project in a folder. Until Apple works out how to do this automatically by brain control or something, this will need to be done manually, and Apple could make this a while lot easier. I can not stress the fact that It doesn't need to be exactly like the desktop. Would love Apple to surprise me and do something awesome, new, different.

iOS works for some people for productivity - I won't deny that, and I never did deny that, but there are a huge amount of people it doesn't - adopting a workflow that for many takes more taps, more time and more stuffing around than Apple providing a proper solution is not a smart thing to do.

The iPad has still not exactly taken off. If it truly was a fantastic device for productivity for the majority it would be doing a lot better.

The Apple defence and arguments against this sort of thing are exactly what I've seen time and time and time and time again. "Theres no way Apple should introduce multitasking, adjust your workflow or buy another device", "Theres no way Apple should introduce a stylus, go buy a different device". "Theres no way Apple should introduce split screen multitasking , go buy a Surface", "Theres no way Apple should introduce Widgets, go buy an Android"... All of those things were eventually implemented as a result of user demand.

Apple has already half implemented what many want already with the iCloud Drive app, theres just a bit more to do.

 

[jeremiah256]

3rd party apps are great for many situations app management is done one of them, as it becomes an annoying task. iOS was not designed from the ground up to use 3rd party apps. We didn't even get the app store till iPhone OS 2, and 3rd party apps don't have the level of integration for many different things. Delete the iOS stock mail app and you can't open links from other apps for example. 3rd party apps play huge part in doing tasks that are semi integrated, but when you're working across multiple apps it falls apart. If a 3rd party app made this sort of thing super easy then of course I'd use it, but it doesn't.

Everything would 'just work' if Apple had a long hard think about making it easy to do things with files. It is good practice for example to keep files from one project in a folder. Until Apple works out how to do this automatically by brain control or something, this will need to be done manually, and Apple could make this a while lot easier. I can not stress the fact that It doesn't need to be exactly like the desktop. Would love Apple to surprise me and do something awesome, new, different.

iOS works for some people for productivity - I won't deny that, and I never did deny that, but there are a huge amount of people it doesn't - adopting a workflow that for many takes more taps, more time and more stuffing around than Apple providing a proper solution is not a smart thing to do.

The iPad has still not exactly taken off. If it truly was a fantastic device for productivity for the majority it would be doing a lot better.

The Apple defence and arguments against this sort of thing are exactly what I've seen time and time and time and time again. "Theres no way Apple should introduce multitasking, adjust your workflow or buy another device", "Theres no way Apple should introduce a stylus, go buy a different device". "Theres no way Apple should introduce split screen multitasking , go buy a Surface", "Theres no way Apple should introduce Widgets, go buy an Android"... All of those things were eventually implemented as a result of user demand.

Apple has already half implemented what many want already with the iCloud Drive app, theres just a bit more to do.

1. We're not talking about the 2007 iPhone, we're talking about the 2010 iPad and it was designed with apps in mind. Apple learned from their initial mistake to rely on web apps that were not ready at that time.

2. Folders are an illusion. A construct that can be duplicated by tags (such as in Gmail - those aren't file folders you're putting your mail into). I wanted a better searching system and being able to select multiple items from that search. If APFS is going to do what I'm thinking, I may get that in 2017 - the solution will be indistinguishable from folders to the user, but will be much more secure, will not compromise the OS, and save space.

3. iOS is for the future. The generations to come are not going to care about our folder management techniques any more than our binders of CDs.

4. I don't think it's fair to say we're blindly defending Apple. I have many things I'd like to beat Apple over the head about. However, they have two parallel operating system. One, macOS is traditional, the other, iOS is not. I'm eager to see what they can do with iOS. If it fails, oh well. But I want to see where this train is going.

5. Agree, again, I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the implications of APFS.

 

[oldmacs]

2. Folders are an illusion. A construct that can be duplicated by tags (such as in Gmail - those aren't file folders you're putting your mail into). I wanted a better searching system and being able to select multiple items from that search. If APFS is going to do what I'm thinking, I may get that in 2017 - the solution will be indistinguishable from folders to the user, but will be much more secure, will not compromise the OS, and save space.

See I'd be interested in some sort of hybrid tagging system that could both show files in their respective apps but then also in folders that the user managed, that would be the best of both worlds.

3. iOS is for the future. The generations to come are not going to care about our folder management techniques any more than our binders of CDs.

We'll see what happens - iOS may or may not be the future. Keeping things in specific folders I don't think is 'legacy' its simply good organisation and something that shouldn't die out.

 

[Night Spring]

All of those things were eventually implemented as a result of user demand.

Not exactly. Who was demanding TrueTone? Was a better camera for the 9.7 Pro a must-have feature on anyone's wish list? And people wanted a stylus from day one, but we finally got one six years later.

Apple giveth when Apple sees fit.

I think their idea of a file system is going to have us asking Siri, "show me all files related to Project X." It already works to a certain extent -- I name my files so that a reference number is included in each file name. I can tyoe "1234" in Spotlight, and I get all the files with that number in the file name, in all the different apps I have on my iPad. I just need filtering functions, like, "files with 1234 from last month." "Just the excel files." Etc.

 

[bensisko]

The Apple defence and arguments against this sort of thing are exactly what I've seen time and time and time and time again. "Theres no way Apple should introduce multitasking, adjust your workflow or buy another device", "Theres no way Apple should introduce a stylus, go buy a different device". "Theres no way Apple should introduce split screen multitasking , go buy a Surface", "Theres no way Apple should introduce Widgets, go buy an Android"... All of those things were eventually implemented as a result of user demand.

Gotta love when people drag this old chestnut out - There's NO WAY people could actually LIKE the file management system, they must just be a bunch of Apple Defenders / "Fanboys".

For your information:
(1) Multi-tasking - you know what I read on forums? "Two isn't enough, I want a four blocker!" and "Just give me a windowed environment!" Barely anybody was asking for the split screen multitasking.
(2) Stylus - From what I remember, it was more "Apple will never introduce a stylus" - less about "should" and more about "Won't". If somebody wanted a stylus at the time then "go buy a different device" was good advice.
(3) And Apple has never introduced Widgets - at least not in the "I have them on my home screen mixed in with apps" like in Android - which is what people were calling for.