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The "I've got the Apogee Duet 2 on pre-order" thread!
- Thread starter nightmaresonwax
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Well I'm now on my second non-functional Apogee Jam. 
The promise is there but the hardware isn't nearly durable enough IMO for normal use. What a shame. I hope the new Duets are still bullet proof and that the Jam is just an aberration.
The promise is there but the hardware isn't nearly durable enough IMO for normal use. What a shame. I hope the new Duets are still bullet proof and that the Jam is just an aberration.That's the rat race we usually get boxed into. The new Macs don't support (or come with) the old operating systems, but the drivers, hardware interfaces, DAW software, etc. may not be updated yet for the new OS. You are almost better off buying a new or refurb Mac with the old OS that includes a free or <$10 upgrade disk for the new OS.
There is no <$10 or even $10 upgrade disk like with Snow Leopard that has been announced for Lion. They are marketing it as a "Mac App Store Download Only" for $29.99 (perhaps they'll let people call in to order disks, but I don't think they will). They are really trying to go all Digital (download) because it saves them money on production cost for CD's and shipping, then they can pass the saving on to you. If you purchase a Mac now (anytime after June 6th) that has Snow Leopard they'll let you upgrade to Lion for free as part of their "Up-to-date" Program. You'll have 30 days, from the day Lion ships to consumers, to request an upgrade to Lion via the Mac App Store for free.
As for the compatibility for Lion Apogee states that you need Mac OS 10.6.4 or greater to run the Apogee Duet and it's Maestro Software. This could imply that that they expect it to work on Lion, because they have had 3 Developer previews of Lion out that they could have worked with already for compatibility. Usually a developer doesn't release an updated version of their software until Apple's Software goes Gold Master and even then they might wait a few weeks to verify that apple doesn't release a Final Gold Master version. Like John.B said, it "may not be updated yet for the new OS". I don't think it would be.
At this exact moment I don't know of anyone that has tried their Duet 2 on the latest Lion Developer Preview 4. I could if you like and get back to you, but I wouldn't record any of my music on a Developer build. I'll guarantee that if it doesn't currently run on Lion then it will on or soon after the shipping (download) date for Lion. Apogee will just release a software/firmware update. When I installed my Duet 2 this week it didn't have the most current firmware, so they have already updated firmware at least once for it.
Yeah, this product is nice, but is it 3x better than competing USB audio interfaces that typically sell for $200 from top audio industry brands like Mackie, Lexicon, etc?
It would be good to know if this already works on Lion or if there will be a wait for updated drivers. Most of the other USB audio interfaces I'm aware of took weeks or months for new drivers to appear after Apple launched Snow Leopard, but that was a big move from 32-bit to 64-bit drivers. I've not read anything one way or the other with respect to Lion requiring new device drivers or not.
If you or any other early adopter can report Lion compatibility here, that would be helpful.
At any rate, given the newness and launch timing of the Duet 2 relative to Lion and Apogee's bias and reliance on Apple customers, I can't imagine it would take long for them to get updated drivers out.
OK. Probably a really dumb question, but as a relatively new Mac owner I have to ask. I thought one of the benefits of the Mac OS was that you don't need to worry about drivers? I was looking at a Mackie Blackjack, for example, which has had a history of driver issues for Windows, but was told not to worry about it because you don't need drivers for a Mac. Can someone please explain why this is an issue?
My post are always long,
hopefully I'm not annoying anyone.There's no such thing as never needing drivers. it's just a question of how the developer has utilized Apple's drivers or their own proprietary ones. A device's Firmware can play a very important role as well. Some, if not most well designed, audio interfaces for Mac use Core Audio. This helps for a more seamless experience, usually.
Core Audio is "Built to handle multiple channels of high bit rate floating-point digital audio, Core Audio is the foundation for music and audio on Mac OS X. Core Audio allows you integrate low-latency playback, manipulation, and recording of audio into your application. Within Core Audio, the Audio Toolbox framework offers services to read and write audio files, encode and decode compressed formats such as AAC, and access FireWire and USB audio devices. The Audio Toolbox also allows you deliver real-time MIDI editing, including cut, copy, paste, and loop along with APIs for inspecting MIDI events." - From Apple's Website. for more reading on core audio take a glance at this.
Apogee States on their website that the Duet 2 is: "Made for the Mac, Core Audio compatible. Designed exclusively for the Mac and made for GarageBand and Logic, Duet 2 is the perfect centerpiece for any personal, Mac-based studio. Duet 2 is also Core Audio compatible making it ideal for other music creation apps like Pro Tools, Ableton Live and Cubase."
If your software takes advantage of core audio and you hardware does as well, then this allows for a more integrated experience on the Mac with less issues that you might see when using 3rd party proprietary drivers; though this isn't always the case. So there are still drivers required no matter what. Then it gets more complicated when you take about firmware which handles the basic low level communication and functions of a device, telling it what it is and how it should interact with certain software and hardware. For more reading on firmware here is a decent source: here.
The only reason to buy the Duet was because the preamps were of a better quality than you'd get from the cheaper Mackie, etc. audio interfaces. From my experience this has only ever been critical for miking vocals or acoustic guitars. Of course, as you can see by the price tag, you pay for the privilege.
A secondary reason might have been that Apogee were seen as kind of the "white hats" for Mac audio hardware which may not be true anymore (and may never have been).
If USB is now "good enough" for Apogee, why isn't the brand-X USB audio interface good enough at less than half the price? There are lots of alternate solutions with less elegant cases but much more functionality and more reliabile inputs/outputs. For example, my MOTU Ultralite runs circles around the Duet in terms of the number and types of inputs/outputs, onboard controls, MIDI connectivity, and especially the durability of the physical connectors.
In the case of a lot of hardware, that's the end of the story.
But as far as audio interface hardware, the enhancements to Core Audio needs specific driver code written for the hardware to be able to take advantage of it. As long as you work with hardware compatible with
Core Audio, then you are freed up from the hassle of dealing with the ASIO-type driver issues that can typically plague Windows users.But to be clear, this is a bigger issue than you might be led to believe. For example, neither MOTU nor Apogee was ready on the day Snow Leopard was released and it was months before everything was eventually stable.
I stand by my position that says you-as-musician really, Really, REALLY want to have Snow Leopard on a SL compatible Mac on the day Lion is released, then only update that Mac used for music projects on the day that your hardware drivers, DAW software, etc. are all compatible and supported on Lion. (At least Apogee is warning users in advance with that ugly "Mac 10.7 not supported" dialog box, other vendor software and drivers simply crash or behave in unexpected ways and you are left to work out why in the various support forums. ProTools, for those so afflicted, seem to be notoriously slow at updates to support Mac OSX version upgrades.)
Then the problem is if the Mac used for music projects dies between the release of Lion and the audio vendor support for Lion... Any new or replacement Mac you buy from that day forward simply won't work with Snow Leopard, your options at that point are used Macs on CL, eBay, etc.
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Thanks for those explanations. Much appreciated. So it seems that no matter what interface I purchase now, there is always going to be the question of if/when it will work with the next OS Apple puts out. Therefore, if I think I want to upgrade the OS sooner rather than later I should, therefore be sure to look at interfaces from those companies that have a history of having better integration with Macs and driver support in general, no?
Sorry to digress a bit from the original thread.
Sorry to digress a bit from the original thread.
I agree with what you said about stable support for most manufactures/developers can take up to a few months after a Major or even minor update to Mac OS X, but with Apogee releasing the Duet 2 so close to the release date of Lion they are bound to have a large amount of brand new customers purchasing right when Lion comes out. Apogee would be extremely stupid not to make sure that the Duet 2 works with Lion reliably on day one of it's public availability. That's what the Developer Previews are for, so that any developer can take advantage of that time between DPs and Public release to get their software ready for prime time. Unfortunately many developers don't do so. Time can only tell. Another bonus with Apogee is that they are Mac exclusive products so they don't have resources split among divisions that develop for alternate platforms.
As for those that don't update their software/drivers/firmware just because they want you to get the new version of their product; if Apogee pulls that on me with the Duet 2 in the future they'll lose me and many others as customers. I absolutely hate it when a company stops developing for older products because they want you to buy their newest product. We'll see if Apogee pulls this with the Duet 1, if they do it will most certainly be for the sake of making money on Duet 2 purchases. To an extent I realize that this is a must under some circumstances, but some companies do this for the express purpose of making money on new hardware purchases, which usually require new licensing and support contracts. Under other circumstances there might not be enough time/money or even resources to develop for older hardware compatibility.
I fear that with how fast companies are pumping out new products this is the new trend: Make a product support it only until the new one comes out. Years ago companies made a great product that wasn't replaced for years and all the while it had amazing support. They have recently discovered that they can make more money releasing lower quality products quicker rather than higher quality products with longer production runs.
Btw, Duet 1st gen software does install on Lion, but doesn't work properly.
I contacted Apogee and they said Duet 2 Maestro will support Lion on launch, but Duet 1 Maestro may not.
So for people anxious to upgrade to Lion, you might consider upgrading your Duet too .
I contacted Apogee and they said Duet 2 Maestro will support Lion on launch, but Duet 1 Maestro may not.
So for people anxious to upgrade to Lion, you might consider upgrading your Duet too .
Not sure if any other owners are experiencing this, but every so often after a computer restart or even just turning on, the Duet device doesn't launch - it just remains on the startup 'A' screen... It's happened a few times, and sometimes just unplugging & re-plugging the device in works, but sometimes only restarting the computer again works...
Weird... & slightly annoying...
Weird... & slightly annoying...
Do you mean the Maestro software doesn't launch, or the actual unit. This is probably very obvious, but have you tried clicking on Maestro on the top of the window and choose "quit Maestro", then open it back up again?
I wish it were that simple and obvious. But no, I'm referring to the device itself. It basically hangs on the powering up screen after turning on or restarting my iMac... It doesn't happen very often, but it's quite annoying on the occasions it does.
I am able to reproduce what you ware talking about, but only when I am booted into windows and it's the Purple 'A' that I get. I've never had it hang on the 'A' when in Snow Leopard. What version of Snow Leopard are you running? Are you using a laptop? I would recommend seeing if it does the same thing with different USB ports or when you use the Duet's external power as well.
For unexpected OLED display messages Apogee recommends the following:
1. White Apogee A logo - this indicates that USB is disconnected. Connect USB, try a different USB cable or a different Mac USB port.
2. Purple Apogee A logo - this indicates that Duet 2 is booting
3.Yellow caution triangle - this indicates that Duet software is not installed on the Mac.
I've gotten the Yellow "Caution" triangle when I boot to Snow Leopard once or twice, but I have their software installed. Hot Plugging the Duet resolved the issue every time for me. If you keep having the issue even after you've done what apogee recommends then you could also reset the PRAM and SMC on your Mac to see if this resolves any issues. If you are getting the Purple 'A' then perhaps the Duet isn't receiving enough power from the USB port and/or hub, I've had this happen with a number of devices, especially on a laptop. If you're using a USB Hub I would try one that has an independent power, or use the external power for the Duet. Perhaps it's a bug in the Duet 2 firmware? You might want to try to Reinstall the Maestro 2 software as well.
Thanks for that ryanhaver
I've never seen the yellow caution triangle, only the purple A logo - I understand why it remains when I boot into windows, as it isn't supported, but it's happening in SL... I'm running the latest 10.6.7 - you may be right about a firmware bug/USB power issue. It happens very inconsistently and as you say, hot plugging the device usually does the trick.
I have to post again to say I am now embarrassed to have posted a negative opinion of the Duet 2 after such a minimal experience of it. Days later, I'm of an entirely different opinion.
My first mistake was to automatically expect the Duet 2 to provide a marked improvement with my existing headphones. It didn't. What seems to have happened is the extra clarity and tighter bass of the Duet 2 was more revealing of the relative weaknesses of my phones, rather than disguising them. I know this because I've since been able to listen to the Duet 2 with four alternative, excellent quality headphones (from Sennheiser, AKG, Beyer and Shure) and I'm thrilled by what I'm hearing from a couple of them. And the phone that so far sounds the best with my Duet 2 is undoubtedly the new Shure SRH940 which seems to me a very fine match. I'm VERY excited by what I'm hearing with this combination.
My first mistake was to automatically expect the Duet 2 to provide a marked improvement with my existing headphones. It didn't. What seems to have happened is the extra clarity and tighter bass of the Duet 2 was more revealing of the relative weaknesses of my phones, rather than disguising them. I know this because I've since been able to listen to the Duet 2 with four alternative, excellent quality headphones (from Sennheiser, AKG, Beyer and Shure) and I'm thrilled by what I'm hearing from a couple of them. And the phone that so far sounds the best with my Duet 2 is undoubtedly the new Shure SRH940 which seems to me a very fine match. I'm VERY excited by what I'm hearing with this combination.
That's great to hear! I know I may come off as some undercover Apogee Rep, but I'm just genuinely impressed by what this device is doing...
On another note, it's very interesting to read about iPad 2 compatibility... I was always extremely cynical about the iPad, writing it off as just a glorified iPhone (!), but this changes things... There may be an iPad 2 purchase down the line...
I have the original duet and i use it without any apogee software for playback in SL. The mac should detect it and auto switch it or go to sound preferences to choose manually. I need to hold down the volume control for a few seconds till the lights stop blinking.
I was under the impresion the software was only needed for recording
Anybody know how the sound quality of the USB compares with old firewire one?
The Apple online store has the Duet 2 in stock. Ordered mine this afternoon and it's already shipped. Upgrading from a ONE, so if anybody is interested in buying a slightly used ONE, hit me with a PM.
I ordered one from apple, too!
I just ordered one from apple, too! It came to $631 or so, which is more than the other places that DON'T have them, but I couldn't stand the wait any longer! I was in the never-ending pre order line with musiciansfriend, and I gave up after the date being moved back one too many times. They were nice about it, though. I got to keep the free gift then advertised with it.
I just ordered one from apple, too! It came to $631 or so, which is more than the other places that DON'T have them, but I couldn't stand the wait any longer! I was in the never-ending pre order line with musiciansfriend, and I gave up after the date being moved back one too many times. They were nice about it, though. I got to keep the free gift then advertised with it.