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Don't panic

macrumors 603
Jan 30, 2004
5,541
697
having a drink at Milliways
Look, I don't know a whole lot about this, which is why I was very general. My train of thought was this:

There's water on Earth -> The Moon is created by bits and pieces of the Earth -> Could this have something to do with eachother?

When it comes to science, I'm happy to be wrong. That's what science is, being proven wrong so we eventually find the correct answer. :)

most likely the ice is mainly derived from comets. But I think that the idea that parts of it might be still a remnant of the original water associated with earth-derived materials at its origin is certainly respectable.

but the real mystery is where the giant pepperoni come from
 
Please tell me you're joking. Water ice has been found on Mars as well as other planets and moons in the solar system.

http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Re-St/Solar-System-Water-in-the.html
From the article you posted a link to: ”Other than on Earth, there is no known surface water in the solar system. Given present knowledge, water in space is believed to exist only as ice, and often as subsurface ice."

In other words.... best guess. Water has been found no where. However now we have these yet to be confirmed moon discoveries which by all of our knowledge is still in doubt. Because we also know all the elements necessary for ice, frozen water, do not exist outside of earths atmosphere. I don’t know about hydrogen, but oxygen absolutely does not exist.
 

Don't panic

macrumors 603
Jan 30, 2004
5,541
697
having a drink at Milliways
From the article you posted a link to: ”Other than on Earth, there is no known surface water in the solar system. Given present knowledge, water in space is believed to exist only as ice, and often as subsurface ice."

In other words.... best guess. Water has been found no where. However now we have these yet to be confirmed moon discoveries which by all of our knowledge is still in doubt. Because we also know all the elements necessary for ice, frozen water, do not exist outside of earths atmosphere. I don’t know about hydrogen, but oxygen absolutely does not exist.

ice IS water.
and the water on the moon is frozen.

and of course oxygen exists.
 

OCPRunsTheCops

macrumors newbie
Mar 5, 2006
10
0
From the article you posted a link to: ”Other than on Earth, there is no known surface water in the solar system. Given present knowledge, water in space is believed to exist only as ice, and often as subsurface ice."

In other words.... best guess. Water has been found no where. However now we have these yet to be confirmed moon discoveries which by all of our knowledge is still in doubt. Because we also know all the elements necessary for ice, frozen water, do not exist outside of earths atmosphere. I don’t know about hydrogen, but oxygen absolutely does not exist.

LOL! Actually, oxygen is the most abundant element in the moon's crust.
From wiki: "In terms of elements, the crust is composed primarily of oxygen (41% to 46% by mass), silicon (21%), magnesium (6%), iron (13%), calcium (8%), and aluminium (7%)."
Oxygen is one of the most abundant elements in the solar system and the universe.
 

Freeþinker

macrumors member
Aug 24, 2005
45
0
northern Virginia
Ice is possible

How can this be? Ice requires oxygen. There is not oxygen on the moon or anywhere else in space as we are able to observe.

I'm neither a chemist nor an astrophysicist, but my layman's knowledge helps me under this:
A planet or planetoid mass has to be large enough to hold oxygen in gaseous form. When oxygen is bound in solid form, mass is not so important. Consider that there have been mere asteroids found with ice, and then you understand that ice in the moon is not only plausible but likely, even though there's no way for the moon to hold any significant atmosphere or any component of it like oxygen as a gas.

Someone please set me straight if I'm wrong.
 

zioxide

macrumors 603
Dec 11, 2006
5,737
3,726
From the article you posted a link to: Other than on Earth, there is no known surface water in the solar system. Given present knowledge, water in space is believed to exist only as ice, and often as subsurface ice."

In other words.... best guess. Water has been found no where. However now we have these yet to be confirmed moon discoveries which by all of our knowledge is still in doubt. Because we also know all the elements necessary for ice, frozen water, do not exist outside of earths atmosphere. I don’t know about hydrogen, but oxygen absolutely does not exist.

Sit back and think about the universe for a second. It's infinitely expanding. There are billions of galaxies, which housing billions of stars, many of which have planets orbiting them. There's no possible way with our current technology that we could even know whats going on in a tiny percentage of these galaxies. There HAS to be hydrogen and oxygen atoms somewhere else in the universe, and that opens up the possibility that there is water somewhere else. There's NO way you can say with certainty that there's no water anywhere else in the universe.

I'm neither a chemist nor an astrophysicist, but my layman's knowledge helps me under this:
A planet or planetoid mass has to be large enough to hold oxygen in gaseous form. When oxygen is bound in solid form, mass is not so important. Consider that there have been mere asteroids found with ice, and then you understand that ice in the moon is not only plausible but likely, even though there's no way for the moon to hold any significant atmosphere or any component of it like oxygen as a gas.

Someone please set me straight if I'm wrong.

You seem correct (I'm not an astrophysicist either). In order for a planet to hold oxygen gas, it would need an atmosphere. However, I think some people here are confusing oxygen gas (O2) with the element oxygen. Oxygen atoms can be bound with tons of other elements to form molecules (ie H2O, 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom). There is definitely oxygen atoms in other places in this universe. We don't know for sure is if there is breathable oxygen anywhere, but with the vast size of the universe, I'd say it's pretty likely. We probably won't ever know in our lifetimes though.
 
Sit back and think about the universe for a second. It's infinitely expanding. There are billions of galaxies, which housing billions of stars, many of which have planets orbiting them. There's no possible way with our current technology that we could even know whats going on in a tiny percentage of these galaxies.
That seems to be consistent with what is in the text I quoted. But the issue here is not what we don’t know in the infinite, it is what we know or don’t know in the tangible. Even in the tangible, again as recognized by the text from the article... ”Other than on Earth, there is no known surface water in the solar system. Given present knowledge, water in space is believed to exist only as ice, and often as subsurface ice." our knowledge doesn’t present any evidence that the elements necessary for water or ice exist, what we have is a theory, or ... best guess.
There HAS to be hydrogen and oxygen atoms somewhere else in the universe, and that opens up the possibility that there is water somewhere else. There's NO way you can say with certainty that there's no water anywhere else in the universe.
No I cannot but neither can the scientific data that has been collected since before I was born say there is even the remote possibility that the elements necessary for water exist beyond our atmosphere. Like you they believe there is some possibility that it does but that is not evidence. This experiment proves nothing conclusively and still leaves us with our previous knowledge and conjecture.
 

Signal-11

macrumors 65816
Mar 23, 2008
1,474
2
2nd Star to the Right
Look, I don't know a whole lot about this, which is why I was very general. My train of thought was this:

There's water on Earth -> The Moon is created by bits and pieces of the Earth -> Could this have something to do with eachother?

When it comes to science, I'm happy to be wrong. That's what science is, being proven wrong so we eventually find the correct answer. :)

That's wasn't a half bad hypothesis (it was incorrect) and yes, that's more or less how science is supposed to work.

That said, a key component of science is looking around and seeing the state of knowledge before making a hypothesis. Everyone builds on everyone else's work. It helps to know what's already been falsified and what's already been looked into. Definitely reduces the WAG* factor.

*Wild Ass Guess

Hmm ... fighting ignorance with ignorance (not an insult - I'm personally ignorant of many things).

http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/ask-an-astrobiologist/question/?id=56

I believe the pendulum on this one has swung back and forth a bit, depending on the evidence. Some evidence indicates asteroids, some (more recent) indicate comets.
 

Signal-11

macrumors 65816
Mar 23, 2008
1,474
2
2nd Star to the Right
Sit back and think about the universe for a second. It's infinitely expanding. There are billions of galaxies, which housing billions of stars, many of which have planets orbiting them. There's no possible way with our current technology that we could even know whats going on in a tiny percentage of these galaxies. There HAS to be hydrogen and oxygen atoms somewhere else in the universe, and that opens up the possibility that there is water somewhere else. There's NO way you can say with certainty that there's no water anywhere else in the universe.

Well, the notion that space is infinite (it's not) or so big that "anything's possible!" is a false one. We know there's some hard limits on what's possible and what's not. We also think (affirmed recently) that the fundamental laws of physics and the fundamental constants that define our reality are the same everywhere in the universe.

That said, from observation we know water vapor exists on exoplanets. The search for water is a very important one because on very many levels, from the microscopic to the macroscopic, from chemical to physical to geological, water is essential for life as we know it. Once we find liquid water on a planet, any planet, we'll know that life as we know it isn't just possible but probable.

Plus, I don't think the guy you were responding to was referring to the universe at large so much as the solar system and "space" in the interplanetary sense.

You seem correct (I'm not an astrophysicist either). In order for a planet to hold oxygen gas, it would need an atmosphere. However, I think some people here are confusing oxygen gas (O2) with the element oxygen. Oxygen atoms can be bound with tons of other elements to form molecules (ie H2O, 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom). There is definitely oxygen atoms in other places in this universe. We don't know for sure is if there is breathable oxygen anywhere, but with the vast size of the universe, I'd say it's pretty likely. We probably won't ever know in our lifetimes though.

You don't have to be an astrophysicist to participate in this discussion. In fact, astrophysicists wouldn't really be involved this kind of thing in the first place as these days, planetary sciences is it's own fields that stands between astronomy and geology. But we're not really talking about stuff you need a PhD or even a specialized bachelor's to understand. Basic scientific literacy will usually get you pretty far.

Anyway, back to the point, oxygen is a very common element in the universe and there's a lot of it on the moon. However, it's not really in any easily accessible form because it's a part of the makeup of what we'll call the "rocks" that make up the crust. And it's not going anywhere because the moon has essentially been geologically inactive for a very long time.

OTOH, it's extremely easily to get oxygen out of water.
 

Don't panic

macrumors 603
Jan 30, 2004
5,541
697
having a drink at Milliways
Of course... you know more than the people looking for the evidence with the knowledge and tools to search for it that have not yet confirmed they have found it. But you tapping on a keyboard can just clear it up in less than four lines.

i don't pretend to understand more than the experts in the field, but i do understand what they say and i also have basic reading comprehension skills, which is clearly more than other people on this board.

Ice and water are the same thing, just in a different state, typically due to differences in temperature and/or pressure (even my 4 years old knows that. well, the temperature part)
there is oxygen pretty much everywhere in the universe, and most certainly on the moon. it is a very abundant element. (ok, she doesn't know this, but then she doesn't go on online forums posting inanities either).
 

leekohler

macrumors G5
Dec 22, 2004
14,164
26
Chicago, Illinois
From the article you posted a link to: Other than on Earth, there is no known surface water in the solar system. Given present knowledge, water in space is believed to exist only as ice, and often as subsurface ice."

In other words.... best guess. Water has been found no where. However now we have these yet to be confirmed moon discoveries which by all of our knowledge is still in doubt. Because we also know all the elements necessary for ice, frozen water, do not exist outside of earths atmosphere. I don’t know about hydrogen, but oxygen absolutely does not exist.

Umm...wrong. The article you quoted mentioned water as ice. Water and ice both contain oxygen. Where are you getting this stuff? I even linked you to where water ice has indeed been found on Mars. There's even small amounts of oxygen in the Martian atmosphere: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars
 

Signal-11

macrumors 65816
Mar 23, 2008
1,474
2
2nd Star to the Right
I wonder how many other people are going to tell william sire that he's wrong?

Reading comprehension and basic scientific literacy - not for those who already know they're right.
 

calderone

Cancelled
Aug 28, 2009
3,743
352
That seems to be consistent with what is in the text I quoted. But the issue here is not what we don’t know in the infinite, it is what we know or don’t know in the tangible. Even in the tangible, again as recognized by the text from the article... ”Other than on Earth, there is no known surface water in the solar system. Given present knowledge, water in space is believed to exist only as ice, and often as subsurface ice." our knowledge doesn’t present any evidence that the elements necessary for water or ice exist, what we have is a theory, or ... best guess.

No I cannot but neither can the scientific data that has been collected since before I was born say there is even the remote possibility that the elements necessary for water exist beyond our atmosphere. Like you they believe there is some possibility that it does but that is not evidence. This experiment proves nothing conclusively and still leaves us with our previous knowledge and conjecture.

Let me tell you, it took me a moment to return to a state of mind where I could reply. The amount of problems with this post is truly stupefying.

First off all, your post shows an extreme misunderstanding of the cosmos, if you truly say and hold a position like:

...our knowledge doesn’t present any evidence that the elements necessary for water or ice exist...

The elements on our planet are not unique to our planet. The elements that exist here were formed in stars. Think of stars as element factories. When the factory explodes, they are sending elements out into the universe. This is how the universe, as we know it today, was formed.

This means that the elements of hydrogen and oxygen are abundant in the universe and obviously so. If an element exists here, it exists elsewhere in the universe (unless we have created the element), this includes things beyond our solar system. Please read the articles below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_of_the_Universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen

In the articles about the specific elements, hydrogen and oxygen, search for the word star.

Here is a particularily telling quote from the Oxygen article:

Wikipedia Oxygen Article said:
Oxygen is the third most abundant chemical element in the universe, after hydrogen and helium

Source for the above quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen#Reference-idEmsley2001

Now, as far as knowing what things are made of. There is a technique call spectrometry, we use this to determine what makes up an object or substance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_spectroscopy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_spectrometry

We can determine with a great deal of accuracy what makes up an object by using this process.

I can assure you, the elements necessary for water exist elsewhere in the universe and have existed long before Earth existed.
 
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