The morality of pirating and EULA

[likemyorbs]

First and foremost, this is not a discussion on HOW to pirate, so lets not break any macrumors rules here. I want to have a debate on pirating and EULA's. I've noticed that many people on macrumors are very anti-pirate and follow EULA's on their software as if it's the law. But in the real world, i have yet to encounter one single person who is anti-pirating. Literally, NOT ONE. Everyone i work with exchanges torrent site invites and has no shame in doing so. I'm in the same boat. I bought a copy of snow leopard when it came out, but then proceeded to use the same disk to install it for everyone i knew who had a mac. I did the same thing with lion, except i didn't even pay for lion. I just feel no guilt in doing it. I don't care. I know i'm not the only one on macrumors who feels this way. Speak up people! What are your thoughts on pirating?

 

[zioxide]

Morality has gone out the window. As long as these big corporations who make these programs don't care about it, treat their employees like crap, and care just about money, then I don't care about morality either. **** em.

 

[AnimaLeo]

Yeah, I agree with zioxide's point. If I want to download an album owned by Universal or Sony I'll feel no guilt what-so-ever. I do however, buy albums from smaller labels SubPop etc etc.

 

[likemyorbs]

Morality has gone out the window. As long as these big corporations who make these programs don't care about it, treat their employees like crap, and care just about money, then I don't care about morality either. **** em.

Yeah basically. Some people might call that rationalizing, but i don't even have to rationalize, i just simply don't give a crap. Not just about software, same goes for music and movies. It's just whatever to me. When i used to have netflix dvd service, i would rip every single one of those discs and add them to itunes. At one time, there used to be this really cool dvd rental system where the disc would cost a couple of bucks, and you could rent it for 48 hours. Here's the kicker though, you can begin watching it whenever you want, because as soon as you took it out of the vacuum sealed package and it came into contact with oxygen, it had 48 hours before it became unusable. Then you just throw it out instead of returning it. I used to open up these discs and rip them as well, i worked at the store that sold them so i got them for free.

 

[bruinsrme]

I lend my software out, DVDs, Blu-rays and so on.

In short I buy and borrow.

Morality. You ask? I guess I have none and yet I can still sleep at night.

 

[zioxide]

At one time, there used to be this really cool dvd rental system where the disc would cost a couple of bucks, and you could rent it for 48 hours. Here's the kicker though, you can begin watching it whenever you want, because as soon as you took it out of the vacuum sealed package and it came into contact with oxygen, it had 48 hours before it became unusable. Then you just throw it out instead of returning it. I used to open up these discs and rip them as well, i worked at the store that sold them so i got them for free.

That's ridiculous on so many levels. Aside from the fact that a "48 hour rental" is quite ********, it shows that that company didn't care about it's customers or the environment. Just about money. 49 hours? Buy another disc. Then throw them all in the landfill.

Big business is ruining us.

 

[ucfgrad93]

First and foremost, this is not a discussion on HOW to pirate, so lets not break any macrumors rules here. I want to have a debate on pirating and EULA's. I've noticed that many people on macrumors are very anti-pirate and follow EULA's on their software as if it's the law. But in the real world, i have yet to encounter one single person who is anti-pirating. Literally, NOT ONE. Everyone i work with exchanges torrent site invites and has no shame in doing so. I'm in the same boat. I bought a copy of snow leopard when it came out, but then proceeded to use the same disk to install it for everyone i knew who had a mac. I did the same thing with lion, except i didn't even pay for lion. I just feel no guilt in doing it. I don't care. I know i'm not the only one on macrumors who feels this way. Speak up people! What are your thoughts on pirating?

And yet, when someone like you or your friends ends up as a CEO for Enron and they screw everyone, I'm sure that you are first in line to piss a fit. It is sad that you feel no remorse at stealing.

 

[0098386]

Morality has gone out the window. As long as these big corporations who make these programs don't care about it, treat their employees like crap, and care just about money, then I don't care about morality either. **** em.

The problem is pirates don't make distinctions between large and small companies. Number of people who pirated one software I made, out of my own pocket, 13k. Number of legit customers 1.5k (for something released a couple of weeks ago).

The problem is how much strain they put on my server. I'm a one man show and I can't afford expensive servers. So unfortunately my legit customers can't fully use my software right now.

That's ultimately the problem. Don't steal (as it is in this case; bandwidth and server limits) from the small guys.

 

[likemyorbs]

That's ridiculous on so many levels. Aside from the fact that a "48 hour rental" is quite ********, it shows that that company didn't care about it's customers or the environment. Just about money. 49 hours? Buy another disc. Then throw them all in the landfill.

Big business is ruining us.

Yeah it was pretty messed up. They're not around anymore though i don't think. They weren't selling well and we stopped carrying them.

 

[KeriJane]

Ummm....

Two Wrongs don't make a Right?

Big, Evil Corporations, like, oh, say, Microsoft, with a truly slimy history of swiping everyone else's work while destroying and monopolizing an entire industry have wronged many people. Pirating stuff from these people may seem like an easy thing to justify. I certainly don't mind others doing it though I won't.
Stealing from a Thief is still stealing, and getting caught means trouble. Not worth it.

If I have to use their usually inferior and overpriced products, I just figure out a way to pay the Evil Corporation and get it over with. If I can stay within the EULA and do it cheaper, like buying secondhand products, I will. If the previous owner Pirated it, that's not my concern so long as I get legitimate rights, like with Adobe's transfer of ownership program.


Corporations and people that don't have such a vile history should receive pay for their work and products. They get that by us paying for their stuff. I am totally opposed to Pirating from these guys. With this group, I will buy new every time I can.
I feel that Apple is in this category.

Movies, music and so on? I just buy the stupid things unless it's not available. (like outdated, obscure foreign music or movies).
That's when the Internet saves the day!

A thing to consider:

The Corporations, particularly the "Evil" ones are taking over or influencing more of the world's governments.
"wronging" these hoodlums can cost you your liberty and livelihood very quickly, no matter what they may have done to "deserve" Piracy..... even the ones that based their monopolies upon it!

 

[daneoni]

Even Steve Jobs operated the same way in his youth. "They don't need the money"

 

[Mac'nCheese]

First and foremost, this is not a discussion on HOW to pirate, so lets not break any macrumors rules here. I want to have a debate on pirating and EULA's. I've noticed that many people on macrumors are very anti-pirate and follow EULA's on their software as if it's the law. But in the real world, i have yet to encounter one single person who is anti-pirating. Literally, NOT ONE. Everyone i work with exchanges torrent site invites and has no shame in doing so. I'm in the same boat. I bought a copy of snow leopard when it came out, but then proceeded to use the same disk to install it for everyone i knew who had a mac. I did the same thing with lion, except i didn't even pay for lion. I just feel no guilt in doing it. I don't care. I know i'm not the only one on macrumors who feels this way. Speak up people! What are your thoughts on pirating?

Well, at least you're honest about your dishonesty. Pirating is stealing, plain and simple and its weird that you don't know one person who feels that way. I know a lot of people who do what you do but I still know a lot of people who don't. Maybe its an age thing, younger people might pirate more then older folks.

 

[likemyorbs]

And yet, when someone like you or your friends ends up as a CEO for Enron and they screw everyone, I'm sure that you are first in line to piss a fit. It is sad that you feel no remorse at stealing.

Tell you what, when i'm CEO of enron i won't pirate anymore. And "stealing software" is an oxymoron. Copying bits of information is not stealing, because no one actually loses anything. I wouldn't have bought the software anyway, i would have used a free and lower quality alternative. This way i figured out how to get the expensive and high quality version without having to pay for it. Sad to you, not sad to me.

 

[ChristianVirtual]

Sorry, but applying the same logic to real life you do you weekly weekend shopping at Walmart by shoplifting ?

Yup: ready for downvoting ...

 

[(marc)]

I usually don't pirate music, because I always think "$10 is such a small investment, I might as well buy the CD". For some reason, I don't apply the same reasoning to software.

 

[Shrink]

OK, so let me get this straight - stealing from a big company is OK, but stealing from a small company is not.

"Copying bits of information is not stealing" So a program that somebody worked for months to perfect and then sell to support him/herself, being just "...bits of information...", is OK to steal.

"Morality...I guess I have none and yet I can still sleep at night" Certainly makes me feel safe and secure. No ethics AND no conscience. Yup, not too scary.

There is an ethical...um...flexibility here that is disquieting.

(Yes ,yes - I'm on my high horse, self-righteous, take myself too seriously and all those other things folks are called when they suggest that there needs to be some ethical structure in the world)

 

[nissan.gtp]

I buy what I use.

If you object to the "system", or licensing terms, or big corporations (like Apple ?) and don't think you should pay for their products, there are tons of free choices. Taking something that is sold, and paying nothing, is stealing. Even music, and yes, that industry needs to be burned to the ground and started over.

 

[AppleThrowAway]

I'll pirate. I'll be the first to admit it. Right now I'm typing on a Dell computer. My Visual Studio install was wonky, and it was easier to wipe and reinstall windows than it was to uninstall ALL of Visual Studio trying to fix the problem... so I wiped and re-installed Windows. Except I had my Windows CD at home, and I won't be there for a few days.. so I used an upgrade disk. Definitely a violation of the EULA right there.

Then there's my music collection. Even if I legally own the license to the track, it's been downloaded because I couldn't be bothered to get my arse into the car to get the CD, and my DVD collection is on HDD now, because it's easier to transport.

Does this make me a pirate? If the cops ever looked, yes! But it also legitimizes breaking the law; doing stuff like this HAS made me more inclined to pirate- even if you try to be legal it's impossible, so why try?

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I buy what I use.

If you object to the "system", or licensing terms, or big corporations (like Apple ?) and don't think you should pay for their products, there are tons of free choices. Taking something that is sold, and paying nothing, is stealing. Even music, and yes, that industry needs to be burned to the ground and started over.

What if you paid for it, and don't have the CD key on your body at the time? OR if you pay for a movie, but the DRM doesn't allow you to play it on your 50" Plasma TV?

 

[wordoflife]

I don't generally pirate since I'd just rather save myself the hassle and buy whatever it is.

I do lend out music, movies, blurays and my friends do the same.

 

[Hisdem]

I usually do not comment on this kind of thing, but, when it comes to pirating, I'll just talk about music, which is what happens most, I think. Here for example, the problem doesn't even lie with the record companies, it lies with my country's government. They overtax everything, and most people do not like paying $40 for an album when it comes out, or $90 for a Blu Ray movie, and Apple insists on not making the iTunes store available here, so, you see where it ends. Downloads, downloads, downloads. Now there are some sites offering a similar service to Apple's iTunes store, and are being quite accessed here. Still, the general public doesn't have access to most of these things, so...

And don't give me the "don't have it then" speech, because we all know we are not going to just spin apart from the world and not listen to good music or watch movies because our stupid government charges a lot more than 95% of this country can afford to pay.

 

[steve2112]

I'm torn on the whole thing. With OSX, for example, it's obvious that Apple makes their money on hardware, as they don't even try to put any kind of protection on the OS. I have no problems copying and reusing it. Also, the crap the music and movie industries are pulling make me sick. Stuff like DMCA, which they bought and paid of, and now the SOPA act which is being ram-rodded through Congress.

In the grand scale, I don't have a problem ripping those guys off. When the MPAA and RIAA report their "losses" from piracy, they assume it was a lost sale. Well, the fact is, a lot of the stuff I downloaded isn't stuff I would buy, but since it's there, why not? I was never going to buy that movie or song anyway.

But here is my moral dilemma: It isn't just the nameless, faceless corporations making this stuff. For every piece of (paid) software, there are software engineers and developers who worked on it. And when it doesn't sell, they will be the first ones laid off by the nameless, faceless, corp. With music, most artists don't make the big time and don't make the millions that someone like Lady Gaga makes. They are the ones who suffer when their stuff doesn't sell. If I like an artist on a small or indie label, I will buy their stuff. If I like software from a small developer, I will buy it.

As for the bigger stuff, I will try to find an open source alternative before I flat-out pirate anything.

 

[Abstract]

It's crazy, because there are a lot of people out there, born after 1985, or in the 1990s, and grew up with pirating. Some of them may have never paid for music, Windows XP, or most software.

I was born in 1980, and I have been downloading mp3s off the internet since 1996-97, before it was even a problem that the music industry was even concerned with. I used to do it through search engines (think "Google", but with just mp3 results), then with FTP. People were using Kazaa and Napster, but I stuck with FTP because it was less "open". There was lots of debate regarding the legality of it, especially in the US (I think downloaded mp3s was still legal to have in Canada at that time).

However, I also bought LOTS of CDs at shops like HMV, and I still buy music CDs today. It's not really so foreign to me. Kids who are born in 1987, 1992, etc, may have an entirely differerent mentality regarding music purchasing.

 

[2jaded2care]

Either you believe it's OK to pirate or you don't. No one's mind is going to be changed. Let the dead horse be.

 

[nastebu]

Either you believe it's OK to pirate or you don't. No one's mind is going to be changed. Let the dead horse be.

It's worth saying that there's no question about whether it's "okay" to pirate. Theft of intellectual property is theft, against the law, morally equivalent to shoplifting, etc. There are lots of rationalizations, but they wouldn't hold up in court, and so the question about the "okay-ness" is settled.

The question is whether you care. Jaywalking is also against the law, although it's only a misdemeanor. Nobody gets offended by jaywalkers. Overstaying your visa is against the law too--also a misdemeanor. But for one reason or another a lot of people get extremely worked up about breaking that one. So the question is if copyright is a law and a moral code that we should care very much about, especially since, like jaywalking, it is so easy to ignore.

I think that yes, it is very very important. If we want programmers to invest their time in creating high quality software, artists to create compelling music, and studios to make movies people want to see, we need to accept that someone has to pay for this, and there's no moral reason for me to skip out on paying and let others shoulder the burden.

 

[roadbloc]

I used to pirate. I have since turned a new leaf and now everything I have in the digital world is legal and legit. I feel if it isn't worth paying for, it isn't worth having at all.