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The Next Mac Pro

All this 2010 mac pro stuff is getting me...

to think as soon as it does come out, I need to get that microcode to flash it to the 2009.. the westmere/gulftowns are really good drop ins for the 2009, but don't in any way shape or form warrant a total overhaul and rebuilding of the mac pro as a separate 2010 model though.

not enough changes to warrant that... if apple would only be less greedy and allow us the microcode so we can use these processors!


WardC said:
I am just being realistic. The technology is here, now, right? Why the hell not use it??
Click to expand...
 
Roman23 said:
Sata III? I doubt it.. faster ram? Doubt it also.. but who knows.. we will wait and see.
Click to expand...

You have proof of that? It's only speculation! Not credible!

Sound familiar...? ;)

Anyways, it would be nice to see Apple implement some of these things, but if not I won't complain. I think people know that the biggest part of this update will be CPUs and GPUs, but then again, we never know for sure.
 
Hmm.. as a matter of fact I do..

Look for Nano's comments on USB 3.0 and SATA III for the "2010 mac pro". He thinks not.

I don't know the exact location but its in one of the forums.


strausd said:
You have proof of that? It's only speculation! Not credible!

Sound familiar...? ;)

Anyways, it would be nice to see Apple implement some of these things, but if not I won't complain. I think people know that the biggest part of this update will be CPUs and GPUs, but then again, we never know for sure.
Click to expand...
 
strausd said:
You have proof of that? It's only speculation! Not credible!

Sound familiar...? ;)

Anyways, it would be nice to see Apple implement some of these things, but if not I won't complain. I think people know that the biggest part of this update will be CPUs and GPUs, but then again, we never know for sure.
Click to expand...

There is the possibility, but it is unlikely based on Apple's past behaviour.

If we look at the memory thing, three out of six processors Apple currently offer can use 1333MHz memory, but Apple chose not only to not offer it, but also disable it. The processors that have replaced the ones Apple currently use still use the same memory speeds, so nothing really changes in that regard. With SATA 3, it is one of those things Apple are unlikely to care about putting any effort or expense in to including as it only benefits specific, costly add ons that they may not even offer. If you look at how much the Mac Pros are missing in areas like memory and I/O then things like that seem of very low priority.

It's a change in mentality rather than just the hardware being available for many features.
 
I think eSATA would be a most useful addition. I have no idea why they haven't already offered it.

Nearly every modern motherboard today has eSATA.
 
SATA III would be a great addition. There are some SSDs that exist now that almost saturate the SATA II bus. I can only imagine the speed of SSDs in the next couple of years. It would be nice to have a Mac Pro that could take advantage of future fast SSDs.
 
Wild-Bill said:
I think eSATA would be a most useful addition. I have no idea why they haven't already offered it.

Nearly every modern motherboard today has eSATA.
Click to expand...

Because Apple likes FireWire as it's their creation, meaning that every product with FW800 will bring some money to Apple's wallet (licensing at least).
eSATA would have been added already if it was in Apple's plans but it looks like it isn't.

SATA 6Gb/s and USB 3.0 are both possible but up to Apple. X68 "Patsburg" (both are unofficial names, I think) will bring at least SATA 6GB/s, likely USB 3.0 as well.
 
Hellhammer said:
Because Apple likes FireWire as it's their creation, meaning that every product with FW800 will bring some money to Apple's wallet (licensing at least).
eSATA would have been added already if it was in Apple's plans but it looks like it isn't.

SATA 6Gb/s and USB 3.0 are both possible but up to Apple. X68 "Patsburg" (both are unofficial names, I think) will bring at least SATA 6GB/s, likely USB 3.0 as well.
Click to expand...

It is completely irresponsible for apple to forego eSATA because of the firewire argument. This goes back to us expecting more from them, rather than accepting BS practices, at their profit!:mad:

We need to make it know that we want USB 3.0, SATA III, and eSATA. In fact I expect it!

I remember when I was researching the G5 when it first came out. There were so many things that made it stand out at the time, cooling zones, super fast bus speeds, etc... Now it seems that apple is no longer interested in making the MP a great machine, but very ordinary. WTF?

I love OSX, and now the price to pay to use it is starting to become a little ridiculous! But that's why I've got a refurb 2.53GHz mini on the way while I wait to see what happens to the MP.
 
WardC said:
The "Next" Mac Pro:

• Dual X5680 3.33GHz Westmere CPUs (12-core)
or Single X3680 CPU (6-core)
Click to expand...

You can't build a whole Mac Pro line up with two processors.


•*6GB or 12GB of 1333MHz RAM standard, upgradable to 128GB
Click to expand...

More likely it will be 1066 RAM because that is the common denominator across all processor implementations likely to be used. It looks like you can pick 1333Mhz if only stick to the higher end offerings like you did above.
Apple is also likely to follow a K.I.S.S. approach (and not create some huge matrix of what can and can't do as far as memory configs go based on several factors. )


In several of those other vendor systems where there are 2-3x the number of memory slots and tech specs of faster memory there is usually a asterisk associated that sends you off to a page where expand have to make choices of whether to fill all with 1066 or fill fewer with higher speed, plus processor model chosing , plus .......


•*ATI Radeon 5870 GPU (option for GFX 485)
Click to expand...

5870 is way to warm (power hog) and pricey (with the addition Mac driver overhead) to be the standard default card. An option sure but default more likely a 57xx . Also lower in the GFX 48x series.

It would be nice if all of the new card options were OpenCL 1.0 and double precision capable.... don't think that is going to happen though. That would be a complete reversal of past actions by Apple.


•*2TB Hard Drive Standard, options for SSDs
Click to expand...

Could stay less that 1TB (if think many folks just will want to replace anyway) and need to soak up 36xx and 56xx price bumps Intel added. 1TB more likely.


•*Airport comes standard
Click to expand...

Not. As covered in another thread several key customers don't want them in standard config. Not going to happen. They will drop Apple if make this move. Why want to put Mac Pro on other side of a relatively pokey wireless connection is a huge mismatch for moving tons of data.
 
Hellhammer said:
Because Apple likes FireWire as it's their creation, meaning that every product with FW800 will bring some money to Apple's wallet (licensing at least).
Click to expand...

What licensing cash cow? The huge licensing uptick was dropped long ago after it was too late to make a difference.
http://www.johasteener.com/firewire_FAQ/#a_nameWhataWhat_are_the_license

$0.25 times 10M units won't even buy Steve a new jet to fly around in and Apple doesn't even get 100% of that. USB isn't free either. The 25-30% margins Apple puts on Macs brings in two or three orders of magnitude more money per mac sold.

Extremely, more likely Apple doesn't like eSATA because it is not standardized plug-n-play. It would be highly unsual for Apple to regress on a principle like plug-n-play for end users. ADB had it. USB had it. Firewire had it. Why give up on that requirement in 2010 ?

Sure you can optionally implement plug-n-play with eSATA, but it isn't a requirement. It is not a K.I.S.S. feature if it works with some devices and not with others. If it was required to work Apple might have signed up.

If Apple loved Firewire so much they would have uniformly rolled FW800 out to all of their models years before they did.
 
bzollinger said:
We need to make it know that we want USB 3.0, SATA III, and eSATA.
Click to expand...

eSATA is dead socket walking. While they may bump a eSATA version for SATA III ( that likely has problems though staying in FCC Class B compliance). USB 3.0 does what eSATA does and better. You don't need these combo USB/eSATA port that aren't industry standard. All you would need is a USB 3.0 port.

Sure they probably won't disappear from many Window PC oriented motherboard but those boards also likely will have PS/2 keyboard and mouse sockets on them ... another dead-standard-walking standards.

Given USB 3.0 was always on the roadmap along with eSATA Apple just never got on that road so never had to get off going into the future. It has been annoying because of USB 3.0's late arrival. However, 2-3 years out, except for folks who have legacy drives to plug in, it is not going to be an issue.



Now it seems that apple is no longer interested in making the MP a great machine, but very ordinary. WTF?
Click to expand...

Having a laundry list of socket types ringing the box of a box is quite ordinary. There is nothing powerful in sticking every socket known to man on the back of a box (or the sides of a laptop ).
 
Roman23 said:
Sata III? I doubt it.. faster ram? Doubt it also.. but who knows.. we will wait and see.
Click to expand...
SATA 3 would require an additional chip, as would USB 3.0 since the X58 and 5520 chipsets are also used in the Gulftown based systems (i.e. no new chipset that supports either of these features have been released yet).

Apple's not added any feature but FW this way (as a result of their involvement with FW's creation), and even FW S1600 or S3200, would require a PCB revision, as the package (pin outs) are different. A PCB revision would also be required to add in a 3rd party semiconductor for USB 3.0, SATA 3, and increase the DIMM slots per CPU (just trace work here, and a couple of extra DIMM slots to solder down, as there's no physical space for more than 6x per, given the PCB specification used - SSI CEB + daughterboard).

As per the DIMM running at 1333MHz, it's possible. Unfortunately, not all of the current parts can run at that speed, nor will the Gulftowns. So even if Apple changes the firmware to support it (SPD timings rather than a fixed value), they'd still stick with 1066MHz to keep the parts bin as simple as possible (cheaper). As a result, I don't think they'd be willing to put in the time to change this (and assuming ROM capacity was never an issue that prevented anything but a fixed value to begin with).

If anything, we might see a new case, as there's no need to redesign the PCB's at all. Just flash with newer microcode to support the newer parts, and it's ready to go. Quite easy to stuff existing boards into a new case. ;)

All of this translates to additional cost, that I'm not convinced Apple would take on, as the history suggests this is their usual take on such things.

ValSalva said:
SATA III would be a great addition. There are some SSDs that exist now that almost saturate the SATA II bus. I can only imagine the speed of SSDs in the next couple of years. It would be nice to have a Mac Pro that could take advantage of future fast SSDs.
Click to expand...
I agree, but I wouldn't expect to see this happen, as so far, Apple's relied on the chipset to provide the SATA interface in the system, and the chipset won't change this time around. So that's still going to be stuck at 3.0Gb/s (same is true for USB, as it will still be 2.0).
 
deconstruct60 said:
What licensing cash cow? The huge licensing uptick was dropped long ago after it was too late to make a difference.
http://www.johasteener.com/firewire_FAQ/#a_nameWhataWhat_are_the_license

$0.25 times 10M units won't even buy Steve a new jet to fly around in and Apple doesn't even get 100% of that. USB isn't free either. The 25-30% margins Apple puts on Macs brings in two or three orders of magnitude more money per mac sold.
Click to expand...

At least it brings some money to Apple's wallet though I didn't know it's that little, my mistake. Would eSATA need some licensing fees? Just thinking how expensive it would be to add. However, if you ask Apple, they will tell you that Time Capsule is the best external HD for everyone :D

nanofrog said:
I agree, but I wouldn't expect to see this happen, as so far, Apple's relied on the chipset to provide the SATA interface in the system, and the chipset won't change this time around. So that's still going to be stuck at 3.0Gb/s (same is true for USB, as it will still be 2.0).
Click to expand...

It's shame that Apple isn't doing what they should do. USB 3.0 controller is like 1cm x 1cm, I doubt SATA 6Gb/s chip is any bigger and they cost like 20 bucks for Apple to add, that's 0.8% of Mac Pros total cost. Sure both can be added via PCIe (are there any Mac suitable PCIe cards?) but there is better use for those slots
 
Hellhammer said:
It's shame that Apple isn't doing what they should do. USB 3.0 controller is like 1cm x 1cm, I doubt SATA 6Gb/s chip is any bigger and they cost like 20 bucks for Apple to add, that's 0.8% of Mac Pros total cost. Sure both can be added via PCIe (are there any Mac suitable PCIe cards?) but there is better use for those slots
Click to expand...
NEC's USB 3.0 controller (µPD720200A) is using a 176 pin FPBGA package (10x10mm, 0.65mm ball pitch). A 6.0Gb/s SATA controller such as a Marvell 88SE9125/88SE9120 is a 76-pin QFN (9mm x 9mm).

Neither are physically large, but it's the trace work and pads (location where the new part/s get soldered to) have to be redone. That's the part that push the costs, as someone has to do the work, new PCB's made, and then manufactured.

There's other details that have to be considered as well), such as existing stockpiles of the current boards (2009 systems). Those can become "waste" that gets added to the cost of the new systems.
 
strausd said:
So you don't think there will be USB 3.0 or new FW?
Click to expand...
Given the existing boards can work with the newer CPU's with only a microcode update, No. There's no history of them adding features when it's not necessary to redesign the logic board anyway (ignoring what PCIe cards may be available, as that doesn't require a system board redesign, just the card).

IMO, It would be seen as additional cost for no benefit from Apple's POV. Granted, users' would love to have it, even if they don't use it. But how often do they actually listen to users (eSATA, Blu-Ray, or include features typically found on other vendors' systems in the same segment)?

The current situation reminds me of what happened with the '06 to '07 systems; just a Quad core CPU was added for BTO options (allowing the DP confit to produce the first Octad system). Just adding in newer CPU's is the easiest and cheapest thing they can do (Intel plan their cycles this way specifically to reduce costs, for both them and vendors).
 
nanofrog said:
Given the existing boards can work with the newer CPU's with only a microcode update, No. There's no history of them adding features when it's not necessary to redesign the logic board anyway (ignoring what PCIe cards may be available, as that doesn't require a system board redesign, just the card).

IMO, It would be seen as additional cost for no benefit from Apple's POV. Granted, users' would love to have it, even if they don't use it. But how often do they actually listen to users (eSATA, Blu-Ray, or include features typically found on other vendors' systems in the same segment)?

The current situation reminds me of what happened with the '06 to '07 systems; just a Quad core CPU was added for BTO options (allowing the DP confit to produce the first Octad system). Just adding in newer CPU's is the easiest and cheapest thing they can do (Intel plan their cycles this way specifically to reduce costs, for both them and vendors).
Click to expand...

And given the fact that both, USB 3.0 and SATA 6Gb/s can easily be added via PCIe card. BTW, are there any PCIe cards that are compatible with OS X?
 
nanofrog said:
Given the existing boards can work with the newer CPU's with only a microcode update, No. There's no history of them adding features when it's not necessary to redesign the logic board anyway (ignoring what PCIe cards may be available, as that doesn't require a system board redesign, just the card).

IMO, It would be seen as additional cost for no benefit from Apple's POV. Granted, users' would love to have it, even if they don't use it. But how often do they actually listen to users (eSATA, Blu-Ray, or include features typically found on other vendors' systems in the same segment)?

The current situation reminds me of what happened with the '06 to '07 systems; just a Quad core CPU was added for BTO options (allowing the DP confit to produce the first Octad system). Just adding in newer CPU's is the easiest and cheapest thing they can do (Intel plan their cycles this way specifically to reduce costs, for both them and vendors).
Click to expand...

So you think the rumor that came out not too long ago is fake? I wouldn't be surprised, but I am still hoping the new one comes out soon...

Hellhammer said:
And given the fact that both, USB 3.0 and SATA 6Gb/s can easily be added via PCIe card. BTW, are there any PCIe cards that are compatible with OS X?
Click to expand...

Not sure if this is what you mean, but I saw this earlier today. I found it when I was looking to see how much they charge for a 2TB drive, which is $550 btw!!! You can get a 2TB drive for less than $150 nowadays, thats just ridiculous!
 
Hellhammer said:
And given the fact that both, USB 3.0 and SATA 6Gb/s can easily be added via PCIe card.
Click to expand...
This doesn't help the situation. But ATM, only SATA 6.0Gb/s is currently available (Highpoint and Newertech), unless a USB 3.0 card has come out that has drivers for OS X I'm unaware of.

strausd said:
So you think the rumor that came out not too long ago is fake? I wouldn't be surprised, but I am still hoping the new one comes out soon...
Click to expand...
I'm not sure which rumor you speak of, but the 2010 should be released between now and Sept., preferably sooner than later. It will depend on whether or not they're waiting for the additional W36xx parts (W3620 and W3640) or not.

You found the Highpoint card, but there's another pair sold by Newertech (one is listed as SATA, the other as RAID, which differentiates itself by supporting Port Multiplier chips). The latter being $100USD. Not great, but not horrible either. Unfortunately, the Newertech cards are both eSATA, not internal (won't boot EFI either).
 
I thought on 8 core mac pro's it has two extra sata connections that you can install an $19.00 esata connection bracket? The one used for the extra dvd rom drive.
 
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