How is it that a show like Friends can go on and on forever, and people are happy to see it year after year. But when some people perceive BSG to only be great, instead of insanely great, they're calling for it to end?
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The Official Battlestar Galactica Thread : SPOILERS
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You're comparing apples to oranges there. There is a difference between a sitcom and a drama. For the most part, sitcoms have 24-minute stories which wrap themselves up in a neat tidy bow each week. This cannot be said for dramas with wide story arcs which last across seasons and develop as such. Dramas are much more multi-dimensional as well. I would argue that the character development in a sitcom is nowhere near as complex and advanced as that of a (well-written) drama as well.
So, IMO it is much easier to write amusing adventures for the same group of (relatively static) comedic characters over and over for 10 years than it is to write meaningful and progressive storylines for a drama as complex and with such a dynamic set of characters as BSG.
There have been many shows which went past their prime and grew stale as a result. I don't want BSG to become one of those.
Now, if the writers can continue coming with original material, twists & turns and character development for another 6 years, go for it, but I doubt that's the case. How long can the search for Earth really go on and how long can the conflict between the humans and Cylons really last without it (again) becoming stale?
Ron Moore stated in a recent podcast he had enough material for another season for sure, perhaps two, but then it will get to a point where all the stories that are meaningful and need to be told will have been told.
I can't give a decent response to that, because I am adamant in stating that Friends was one of the greatest travesties on television during its entire run and one of the main reasons why I stopped watching TV for years. They could have churned out another 5 seasons of that crap, it would have exactly been the same old hooey and the ratings would have still been pretty high, if not stellar.
Even now, BSG's the only show I regularly watch.
Galactica won't outstay its welcome if it is willing to evolve as a wholethe show can move on... from searching for Earth to what happens when they find Earth to what happens next, and by being more fluid with their main characters (like they were earlier on, esp. when you were never sure if someone was going to die or be revealed as a cylon). I can see how four seasons of searching could get frustrating, so they've got to be willing to let the fleet find Earth and deal with the issues they've set up in order to move on to others. In a show like Galactica, if anything is sacred, then it's routine.
I thought today's episode was fine. It's really not that bad watching the crew deal with their crappy situation and the dangerous ship that's their only hope all the same. The characters felt authentic, but it bugs me that Galactica writers have such a fetish for flashback, history sequences, and dream-sequences. This episode's examples were relatively innocuous because they managed to avoid introducing never-mentioned lovers or artificial backstory. We knew Adama had a tough relationship with his ex-wife, so what we got, though erring on the side of tedious, was more development than exposition. It was made even more bearable because it took the form of inner dialogue instead of direct flashback, which can sometimes set up the 'problem of the week' too directly.
As usual, I feel proud to be watching a show that takes being in space seriously and not as a complicated backdrop that has little bearing on the story. It reminds us that everything around our heroes is dangerous, and not just kind of dangerous, but really, seven seconds and they'll have to stick you in a tube dangerous. When you can take a stroll in space without a temperature-controlled, pressure-regulated suit like you can in Farscape, everything just seems friendlier and a little less suspenseful (not that they didn't have their reasons).
I have a noncritical question: why did Tyrol's seal disintegrate? I thought he was using something meant for plugging leaks? I also wondered why they didn't try and plug the leak from the outside, but I suppose this is what they meant by a "docking collar."
I thought today's episode was fine. It's really not that bad watching the crew deal with their crappy situation and the dangerous ship that's their only hope all the same. The characters felt authentic, but it bugs me that Galactica writers have such a fetish for flashback, history sequences, and dream-sequences. This episode's examples were relatively innocuous because they managed to avoid introducing never-mentioned lovers or artificial backstory. We knew Adama had a tough relationship with his ex-wife, so what we got, though erring on the side of tedious, was more development than exposition. It was made even more bearable because it took the form of inner dialogue instead of direct flashback, which can sometimes set up the 'problem of the week' too directly.
As usual, I feel proud to be watching a show that takes being in space seriously and not as a complicated backdrop that has little bearing on the story. It reminds us that everything around our heroes is dangerous, and not just kind of dangerous, but really, seven seconds and they'll have to stick you in a tube dangerous. When you can take a stroll in space without a temperature-controlled, pressure-regulated suit like you can in Farscape, everything just seems friendlier and a little less suspenseful (not that they didn't have their reasons).
I have a noncritical question: why did Tyrol's seal disintegrate? I thought he was using something meant for plugging leaks? I also wondered why they didn't try and plug the leak from the outside, but I suppose this is what they meant by a "docking collar."
Actually I think what they meant by a docking collar was more along the lines of setting up a sheltered "passage way" from the airlock to the raptor, so that they wouldn't be directly exposed to space - I assumed Tyrol was referring to a contraption similar to the walkway that attaches to a plane once its on the ground that allows passengers to walk through it into the terminal.
Well ST:TNG went out when it was still fairly strong - I would say that it was only slightly past prime by the end of the seventh season. My guess (hope) is that BSG follows a similar path, and doesn't go down the "Stargate" road. HBO is also pretty good at pulling shows when they've peaked - I'm thinking of Six Feet Under and The Sopranos at 6 and 6.5 seasons, respectively.
I enjoyed this past episode more than I thought I would - something that a lot of SciFi lacks is a "human" component (read: character development). It looks like Tyrol's time has come around to be the dramatic lead for an episode or two. Though I'm also hoping we get back to the Cylons at some point - they haven't been seen for 49 days, and we all know that a long absence of Cylons usually bodes poorly for the Colonial Fleet. They're up to something, and given the mid-season teaser I think it's Earth-related. I also don't think we've seen the last of Lucy Lawless...
Anyone want to open a poll on who we think the new Cylon will be?
That's a good point - TNG was pretty solid even into the final seasons...
Yep, I agree - something big is coming... perhaps even a maelstrom...
Thought the latest ep, "Dirty Hands" was wonderfully directed, but predictable and kind of simply written. There's no doubt that it's Galactica, what with a political disagreement that makes sense from both sides, but unlike some of the earlier episodes of this kind (Bastille Day, the ep. about independent tribunal, etc.) it ends happy and neat and doesn't break any new ground with the characters. Baltar's appearances are economical, but it's bothering me: when are we going to see his trial? I was expecting it the next episode four episodes ago.
I was suitably horrified by the workers' conditions and we were treated to a nice long climax with the usual intense music as Tyrol makes up his mind that he's going to strike. Tyrol backing down worked for menot only did it avoid the cliched hero posture, but it shows that he's three-dimensional. He heard Adama's side of the story and admitted he was wrong.
Most of the rest of it was too cut and dry for me. Workers = traditionally exploited. Overclass. Underclass. Rights in an industrial democracy. Etc. Simple class conflict is a tired premise from a dramatic point of view, though this rises slightly above it by being more about how hereditary industries develop than how unjustly the poor are treated. I found Espenson's last ep, the one where Kat is revealed to have been a smuggler, to be the same way: just a little bit too binary about a "social issue." For the record, I didn't much care for her episode of Firefly either, even though she's considered a diva of screenwriting. Cofell Saunders also reminds us of her last entry, the episode based almost entirely on the cylon basestar, with short dialogue that sometimes seems a little lost in its own scene, and with slightly predictable problems scattered about, such as the reappearance of the architect-con-farmer who saves them all at great sacrifice, or Celix getting her dream job in flight training.
Anyway, a lot of it hardly seems to matter when you've got a good director on the bill. The shots of the refinery were impressively cramped and labyrinthine, and we had some nice context shots like fuel splashing on a camera and the pilots descending on the deck crew from the level above like hawks.
I was suitably horrified by the workers' conditions and we were treated to a nice long climax with the usual intense music as Tyrol makes up his mind that he's going to strike. Tyrol backing down worked for menot only did it avoid the cliched hero posture, but it shows that he's three-dimensional. He heard Adama's side of the story and admitted he was wrong.
Most of the rest of it was too cut and dry for me. Workers = traditionally exploited. Overclass. Underclass. Rights in an industrial democracy. Etc. Simple class conflict is a tired premise from a dramatic point of view, though this rises slightly above it by being more about how hereditary industries develop than how unjustly the poor are treated. I found Espenson's last ep, the one where Kat is revealed to have been a smuggler, to be the same way: just a little bit too binary about a "social issue." For the record, I didn't much care for her episode of Firefly either, even though she's considered a diva of screenwriting. Cofell Saunders also reminds us of her last entry, the episode based almost entirely on the cylon basestar, with short dialogue that sometimes seems a little lost in its own scene, and with slightly predictable problems scattered about, such as the reappearance of the architect-con-farmer who saves them all at great sacrifice, or Celix getting her dream job in flight training.
Anyway, a lot of it hardly seems to matter when you've got a good director on the bill. The shots of the refinery were impressively cramped and labyrinthine, and we had some nice context shots like fuel splashing on a camera and the pilots descending on the deck crew from the level above like hawks.
The home stretch
So next week is the beginning of all the revelations we are supposed to get this season. The final 4 episodes. "One will die. One will find earth. And one will discover they are a Cylon." Sitprep now has production still photos for all episodes this season. I love to spoil myself, but ...crap... I think I saw the Cylon reveal. Things are going to change.
So next week is the beginning of all the revelations we are supposed to get this season. The final 4 episodes. "One will die. One will find earth. And one will discover they are a Cylon." Sitprep now has production still photos for all episodes this season. I love to spoil myself, but ...crap... I think I saw the Cylon reveal. Things are going to change.
Maelstrom
What the hell did I just see?
Head hurts from the revelations...and the unanswered questions.
What the hell did I just see?
Head hurts from the revelations...and the unanswered questions.
Okay, so, Starbuck is dead? Does anyone think she'll come back as a cylon?
And whats this about BSG ending is 3 or 4 more episodes?
And whats this about BSG ending is 3 or 4 more episodes?
That's what I was wondering-- whether that plays into "she has a destiny." Or, why would Leoben be messing with her so much? Or is that just a red herring...? What of her time in captivity if she wasn't human?
I think for the season, no? October to April? Then time to do some more?
My Rant : /
I agree, I have no idea what they are doing, I enjoy the character depth episode but happened to all the direction? One of the things I enjoyed about the BS was the fast pace. There has been none in this season.
BSG is turning into X-files, where a lot of things happen but it only creates more questions. I don't see them taking Starbuck out of the show so ether she is a cyclon, or the writers are going to create some unbelievable story to bring her back. Both options I dislike but the later option seems just way to cliche (*spell?) for me and will probably make me loose interest.
Also, with all this going back into time does anyone feel like this is turning into a sci-fi soap opera?
I agree, I have no idea what they are doing, I enjoy the character depth episode but happened to all the direction? One of the things I enjoyed about the BS was the fast pace. There has been none in this season.
BSG is turning into X-files, where a lot of things happen but it only creates more questions. I don't see them taking Starbuck out of the show so ether she is a cyclon, or the writers are going to create some unbelievable story to bring her back. Both options I dislike but the later option seems just way to cliche (*spell?) for me and will probably make me loose interest.
Also, with all this going back into time does anyone feel like this is turning into a sci-fi soap opera?
3 to go
Actually BSG is pulling a Sopranos. After the finale they won't be back for 9 or 10 months! At least we get a DVD movie before then. 4 could be the final season.
I haven't seen the latest ep (no Sci-Fi network for me - have to D/L the eps... maybe I'll grab this one on iTunes now that I have an iPod w/video... anyways...) so I just scanned the last parts of this thread to avoid any spoilers, but this jumped out at me...
They've missed the boat on going more than 4 seasons, imo. Now, BSG is a GREAT show, don't get me wrong, but they've already shown they're not interested in evolving much. We have the same love triangles, more or less, as the first season, and they spent ~2 episodes on the only subplot substantially different than the miniseries when they could have done half a season.
I am referring to the occupation/New Caprica events. When season 2/2.5 ended with them on the planet, a year+ later, Galactica gone, Cylons in control of the entire human race it was brilliant. I though to myself, "ok, so this occupation, the resistance, and the Galactica 'rescue' prep material can go for half a season no problem. Big mid-season finale with the Cylons being driven out, and some kind of cliffhanger to setup the 'new search' for Earth in the second half of season 4. This will be good, a change of pace, a way to evolve some characters into new directions (which they did with Tigh, but that's about it)."
But they didn't. It was over and everything back to the same ole-same ole in episode one of season 3. They clearly intend to make a show about the search for Earth, not about the people searching for it (which is what it was more about in the first part of the series, imo). That's OK, but it means it's going to have to end pretty soon. I figure they run this season out tying up some loose ends, next season they either find Earth, and so do the Cylons and we either see
1) the Cylons redeem themselves and there's peace.
2) the survivors defend Earth from the Cylons ensuring the survival of man-kind, but all die in the process.
3) Earth is a ghost planet, all hope is lost.
4) or there's no Earth, and they end it some other, lamer, way.
I like #2 personally. It's sad, but has a feeling of success and victory (all they ever wanted was to make sure humankind survived the Cylons, not necessarily personally live). It ends the series in a final no-chance-of-a-spin-off-or-sequel-to-f*ck-it-up way, which is good, I think.
Had a night's sleep to digest "Maelstrom."
[SPOILER WARNINGS]
I have to disagree with the notion that the show's becoming X-Files. I never felt that X-Files had a massive plot arch that could ever make sense; it's surprising success basically led the show to milk it for all it's worth by making up stuff at it went along. (The movie especially was a big joke played on the audience.)
It's been pretty clear for over a season that there's more to Starbuck than just being a Viper pilot. Her time in the Farm, the broken hand bones, the abusive past, the strange imagery...combined with the poking around D'Anna did looking for the final five Cylons between "life and death," it's pretty clear to me that the show writers have a plan and that there will be a payoff in the end as long as the show doesn't get canned prematurely.
The big questions for me:
1) What's the show going to do without the resident firebrands (Ellen, Kat, and now Kara)?
2) When (not if - I refuse to believe that Kara's final destiny is to commit suicide) will Kara be back, and in what form?
3) Is the payoff worth it?
This could easily become a misfire of major proportions. I'm not comforted by the heavy use of all-knowing religious soothsayers in the case of D'Anna and now Kara, nor was I thrilled with the whole Cylon Basestar storyline. We'll just have to wait and see.
[SPOILER WARNINGS]
I have to disagree with the notion that the show's becoming X-Files. I never felt that X-Files had a massive plot arch that could ever make sense; it's surprising success basically led the show to milk it for all it's worth by making up stuff at it went along. (The movie especially was a big joke played on the audience.)
It's been pretty clear for over a season that there's more to Starbuck than just being a Viper pilot. Her time in the Farm, the broken hand bones, the abusive past, the strange imagery...combined with the poking around D'Anna did looking for the final five Cylons between "life and death," it's pretty clear to me that the show writers have a plan and that there will be a payoff in the end as long as the show doesn't get canned prematurely.
The big questions for me:
1) What's the show going to do without the resident firebrands (Ellen, Kat, and now Kara)?
2) When (not if - I refuse to believe that Kara's final destiny is to commit suicide) will Kara be back, and in what form?
3) Is the payoff worth it?
This could easily become a misfire of major proportions. I'm not comforted by the heavy use of all-knowing religious soothsayers in the case of D'Anna and now Kara, nor was I thrilled with the whole Cylon Basestar storyline. We'll just have to wait and see.
i feel the same. i liked the fast pace of the story line. in this season they waste lot's of time rambling about everybodies crisis or relationship or whatever. i'm interested in the story, not how starbucks feels!
i pretty much stopped watching it. and if you miss a few episodes you realize that nothing had happened anyway.
i suspect they don't have a good story line. as you said: just like x-files. soon it will become more and more inconsistent.
What a curious way to send Starbuck off, even if it's only temporary. Like everyone's said, the pace has been lobotomized... I think the main culprits here are the flashback/reverie devices that the Galactica writers have, for some reason, taken great fondness to. They seem to have a very specific infatuation with putting faces to people in our heros' pasts. Adama's wife, Apollo's girlfriend, President Adar, and Starbuck's mother are a few that come to mind—each of which were used in the same way by their respective stories' authors. History cannot change, and is thus suspenseless. For a show that found itself on suspense, such frequent use of hindsight is worrying.
At least part of the reason this episode felt so confusing for me was that it was never exactly clear what Starbuck was trying to do. A character can't be properly protagonistic without a concrete goal; there's no way to identify with them. More than this, Starbuck's "destiny" was frustratingly vague for having been such an important part of this episode, at least it was until Starbuck's personal Leoben told her where she was going ("to the place between life and death" or whatever the phrase he used). And what exactly did her relationship with her mother have to do with it all, except that it caused her great anxiety? This time, I thought, would have been better spent dealing with her issues through the other characters in the show, but since the amount of 'real' interpersonal interaction in this episode was so low, the script completely alienated the other characters from her revelation, or whatever it was, and all we get outside of it is Apollo relentlessly expressing concern.
The high point of this episode was the scene at the end with Adama, because he can do such amazing things with his face.
At least part of the reason this episode felt so confusing for me was that it was never exactly clear what Starbuck was trying to do. A character can't be properly protagonistic without a concrete goal; there's no way to identify with them. More than this, Starbuck's "destiny" was frustratingly vague for having been such an important part of this episode, at least it was until Starbuck's personal Leoben told her where she was going ("to the place between life and death" or whatever the phrase he used). And what exactly did her relationship with her mother have to do with it all, except that it caused her great anxiety? This time, I thought, would have been better spent dealing with her issues through the other characters in the show, but since the amount of 'real' interpersonal interaction in this episode was so low, the script completely alienated the other characters from her revelation, or whatever it was, and all we get outside of it is Apollo relentlessly expressing concern.
The high point of this episode was the scene at the end with Adama, because he can do such amazing things with his face.
Part of the stilted pace undoubtedly comes from the Cylons, or lack thereof. They were first made sorta lame and uninteresting on the Basestar, then they completely disappeared. With Roslin and Adama getting along, most everybody accepting Athena, the absence of all sleeper agents, the end of Pegasus, Boomer completely losing her humanity, and the legitimacy of the existence of Earth upgraded from myth to something worth searching for, many of the obvious sources of tension (and dramatic storylines) have disappeared. They've had to manufacture a lot of drama from inherently weaker and shakier sources (tribal hatred, martial infidelity, recon pilot escaped from a Basestar).
Since Exodus, the show's being carried mostly by the superb acting and a couple of choice setups. The execution of collaborators, Baltar's interrogation, Helo's struggles, and Kara in the last episode were all noteworthy.
But it doesn't really measure up, I think, to the awesomeness of Season 1 and most of Season 2. I am praying that Baltar's trial will change that. A lot of online chatter seems to hint also that this stretch of episodes to the end of Season 3 will blow people's minds. We'll see.
Since Exodus, the show's being carried mostly by the superb acting and a couple of choice setups. The execution of collaborators, Baltar's interrogation, Helo's struggles, and Kara in the last episode were all noteworthy.
But it doesn't really measure up, I think, to the awesomeness of Season 1 and most of Season 2. I am praying that Baltar's trial will change that. A lot of online chatter seems to hint also that this stretch of episodes to the end of Season 3 will blow people's minds. We'll see.
That's a weird way of looking at it. The revelation of hidden pasts is used quite often in literature, not to mention in other drama shows (perhaps not to the extent of BSG, though).
Her mom knew she had a special destiny and drilled her, boot camp style, to be ready. There was a purpose to her abusive nature, however demented it was. Yeah, not exactly the way to build a loving relationship.
Kara ends up having a love-hate relationship with her mom, much as Lee had with his old man, and I did with my racist, spiteful father. I guess I can relate to Kara in that regard.
According to the podcast, Olmos destroyed an actual museum-quality model ship worth hundreds-of-thousands of dollars. He was acting "in the moment." Yikes.
Yikes indeed. I guess it shows how seriously he takes his job.
As far as revelations that take place in the past being common... fair point, but I would say where most cases of this in literature etc. differ from last night's episode is how the revelation in question affects the present. If a flashback doesn't reveal information critical to a character's immediate conflict, then what is it but exposition? Perhaps the reason I'm banging my head on this is because Starbuck's "immediate conflict" is kind of ethereal and intangible.
Like a maelstrom.
As far as revelations that take place in the past being common... fair point, but I would say where most cases of this in literature etc. differ from last night's episode is how the revelation in question affects the present. If a flashback doesn't reveal information critical to a character's immediate conflict, then what is it but exposition? Perhaps the reason I'm banging my head on this is because Starbuck's "immediate conflict" is kind of ethereal and intangible.
Like a maelstrom.
The New Caprica phase was great, and it was really cool to spend some time on the Cylon side as well. But I'm glad things have "returned home" too. The last few episodes have been really good.
And yet they have also evolved a lot--and in fun and interesting ways. Athena, Adama and Roslin in particular have come a long way.
Well, I think it's OK for some issues to remain long-term instead of being cast aside, but it's not the same triangles and relationships:
Dee and Billy - RIP. Dee and Lee now.
Kara and Baltar making 6 jealous - gone - plus now 6 is here in the flesh AND in the mind.
Baltar and D'eanna - even excluding 6.
Tyrol and new-Sharon/Athena - dead issue - now it's Callie.
Boomer and Tyrol - dead issue - she's lost her humanity it seems.
Lee and Kara now complicated further (to say the least) by marriages - Anders isn't just a memory now, he's on board.
Adama and Roslin?
Tigh and Ellen and catting around - RIP.
Leoben and Kara one-way creepiness.
The Cylon threat isn't gone, I'm sure. And the mystery of what they're up to has been "upgraded" to the mystery of the Final Five and "what lies between life and death."
As for the eternal mystery of mental 6 and Baltar... that's back AND now there's a mental Baltar again too (Maybe there's nothing deeper going on with this... but 6 DID predict the baby.)
In addition to those two sources of tension that remain, Lee and Kara's is still here--and increased. And Tigh is more bitter than ever.
Plus I really like how they've continued to address one BIG source of tension, first raised back with Water: resources for the fleeing ships. Be it food, fuel, medicine, etc.
And the BIGGEST source of tension from the very beginning is "who's a cylon"--and that has been raised a notch because it seems like D'eanna may have seen one of the main "human" characters before she was boxed! That will be big one day.
And FWIW, I don't think Kara is out of the picture. Anything's possible, but that black-and-yellow handle isn't for adjusting the lumbar support. Combine that with a Heavy Raider--why heavy? I think the Cylons and Kara will both be back soon. (The same cannot be said for Adama's model ship.)
(PS, did the old oracle from New Caprica die? I don't remember. I liked her better than this new one.)
And yet they have also evolved a lot--and in fun and interesting ways. Athena, Adama and Roslin in particular have come a long way.
Well, I think it's OK for some issues to remain long-term instead of being cast aside, but it's not the same triangles and relationships:
Dee and Billy - RIP. Dee and Lee now.
Kara and Baltar making 6 jealous - gone - plus now 6 is here in the flesh AND in the mind.
Baltar and D'eanna - even excluding 6.
Tyrol and new-Sharon/Athena - dead issue - now it's Callie.
Boomer and Tyrol - dead issue - she's lost her humanity it seems.
Lee and Kara now complicated further (to say the least) by marriages - Anders isn't just a memory now, he's on board.
Adama and Roslin?
Tigh and Ellen and catting around - RIP.
Leoben and Kara one-way creepiness.
The Cylon threat isn't gone, I'm sure. And the mystery of what they're up to has been "upgraded" to the mystery of the Final Five and "what lies between life and death."
As for the eternal mystery of mental 6 and Baltar... that's back AND now there's a mental Baltar again too
(Maybe there's nothing deeper going on with this... but 6 DID predict the baby.)In addition to those two sources of tension that remain, Lee and Kara's is still here--and increased. And Tigh is more bitter than ever.
Plus I really like how they've continued to address one BIG source of tension, first raised back with Water: resources for the fleeing ships. Be it food, fuel, medicine, etc.
And the BIGGEST source of tension from the very beginning is "who's a cylon"--and that has been raised a notch because it seems like D'eanna may have seen one of the main "human" characters before she was boxed! That will be big one day.
And FWIW, I don't think Kara is out of the picture. Anything's possible, but that black-and-yellow handle isn't for adjusting the lumbar support. Combine that with a Heavy Raider--why heavy? I think the Cylons and Kara will both be back soon. (The same cannot be said for Adama's model ship.)
(PS, did the old oracle from New Caprica die? I don't remember. I liked her better than this new one.)
A bloody good point nagromme! Kara did have her hand on the eject! It'll be interesting to see if she is really still alive and was taken by a Leoben by more physical methods - rather than her waking in a Ressurection Ship/elsewhere?
And agree on the New Caprica Oracle (Pulp Fiction Diner Chick) - a lot better, and creepier, than the new one...
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