No worries, some of us follow the series closer than others - there's nothing wrong with being more of a "casual" fan... 😉 😀
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The Official Battlestar Galactica Thread : SPOILERS
- Thread starter ~Shard~
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No worries, some of us follow the series closer than others - there's nothing wrong with being more of a "casual" fan... 😉 😀
Hey, no fair! 😉 😀 Interesting though - we still have to wait a few more days to get our BSG fix... 🙁
At least it says something that you're comparing an episode 8 with two series finales!
Tellin ya, Roslin's a cylon.... 😀
I liked it. I'm really curious whether the basestar hybrid just panicked and jumped blind or is up to something.
Also there's still a Caprica on the Galactica, right... the Caprica? I miss her from the plotline. All those cylons on a killing spree had better not kill her, now that we know that she sees Baltar in her head.
I liked it. I'm really curious whether the basestar hybrid just panicked and jumped blind or is up to something.
Also there's still a Caprica on the Galactica, right... the Caprica? I miss her from the plotline. All those cylons on a killing spree had better not kill her, now that we know that she sees Baltar in her head.
I thought the whole thing was contrived. He will be a good prez, therefore I can not let it happen, etc. In fact the whole idea that the two of them would lock themselves in a room to select a candidate instead of some form of committee doing it just did not ring true.
Spoiler
He'd been driven mad because they'd killed his pet cat, so he wanted to punish everyone by denying them the best leader. I thought it was weird when Lee couldn't see the cat earlier in the episode when it was right in front of him, but obviously those shots with the cat were only hallucinations. I'm rather surprised both the cat and dog survived the earlier "famine across the fleet" episodes before the Algae planet though.
A reminder: Hulu watchers (like me) have to wait 8 days for the next episode.
I've been avoiding this thread because of that.
I also must say that I think a lot of the negative reaction to the show seems to stem in part from the fact that the show is leaning heavily on the mystical aspects of the universe to lead everybody to Earth. Because of this, the nature of the show has changed quite a bit - it's not the same show that it was in Season 1. I'm okay with the changes, partially because I think it was unavoidable - they frankly don't have much science to rely on, especially now that Baltar's reviled by the mainstream. But also, you can only do so much military-survival themes before it becomes an overly familiar grind. Notice how the war on terrorism and the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have largely faded into the background - much of that has to do with the lack of new things to say about the conflicts.
It's telling that the first large-scale battlefield development this season amongst the Colonials (aside from the season intro) is coming close to the mid-season cliffhanger, and that it's a really messed-up joint Cylon-human operation where neither side trusts each other. I'm guessing past this, we're not going to see much more battle fireworks until the very end of the series.
I've been avoiding this thread because of that.
I also must say that I think a lot of the negative reaction to the show seems to stem in part from the fact that the show is leaning heavily on the mystical aspects of the universe to lead everybody to Earth. Because of this, the nature of the show has changed quite a bit - it's not the same show that it was in Season 1. I'm okay with the changes, partially because I think it was unavoidable - they frankly don't have much science to rely on, especially now that Baltar's reviled by the mainstream. But also, you can only do so much military-survival themes before it becomes an overly familiar grind. Notice how the war on terrorism and the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have largely faded into the background - much of that has to do with the lack of new things to say about the conflicts.
It's telling that the first large-scale battlefield development this season amongst the Colonials (aside from the season intro) is coming close to the mid-season cliffhanger, and that it's a really messed-up joint Cylon-human operation where neither side trusts each other. I'm guessing past this, we're not going to see much more battle fireworks until the very end of the series.
This is one of the reasons why i do not enjoy watching BSG as much as i did watching season 1 and 2. You are right they had to change but i wish they did not go as far as they did. I hoped for some more influence from season 1 and 2 will be added soon.
I disagree, the mystical aspect of the show has always been interesting and exciting. The inherent drama of Adama's call to find Earth coupled with his actual ambivalence about the whole endeavour was great. The military episodes also had the most drama, because we got to see characters evolve under stress. I'd say the Kobol episodes were the strongest, and they contained not only troops fighting a pitched battle against the Centurions, but also the wonderful scene where Adama drowns Hera in an almost biblical gesture. This scene, of course, turns out to be one of Baltar's fevered dreams, but then the camera pulls back and we find he's in a bone field. Something horrible has clearly happened on Kobol, but we never find out just what.
Also, Scar was a fantastic episode and it gave away the line that the Cylons are, at least in some way, emotionally scarred by their deaths. This dropped hint has become increasingly relevant and this was an episode cribbed from any show or movie about fighter pilots.
My thesis is, the episodes that focus on mysticism for mysticism's sake are never as good as the episodes that allow the mysticism to organically seep into the conflicts and drama that surround the rest of the show. The writer's focus on the day-to-day drama of the fleet, including combat and survival, hones their viewpoint and makes for better episodes.
I think BSG's treatment of mysticism has changed a lot since the beginning. I was mainly interested in it at first because of two things:
1) Baltar and his "guardian angel" exemplified the rational mind being pushed beyond the limits of the rational. His dilemma was not only "science versus spirit," but "who does a skeptic turn to for comfort, meaning, and in his case, absolution?" These questions were core to the theme of the show at the time, which had everyone looking for a way to explain their traumatic situation.
2) They pointed to a "plan," or a "greater unknown" that in story is one of the most tantalizing devices ever. I wanted to be frightened and awed of the cylons because it upped the stakes: it wasn't just survival that was at stake for humanity, but they had to discover their role in this supernatural plan in order to restore the balance that they forfeited when they created the cylons in the first place.
The Kobol episodes that launched season 2 are where I thought things started going wrong, at least for this gestalt of the show. The tantalizing promise of Baltar reaching the opera house (which at the time was Kobol) was subjected to prevarication like Baltar having to prove himself a man before Six and the map to Earth, which might as well not have existed for all the good it did.
At that point, I feel the thematic locus of mysticism was left behind. Naturally, the mystical issues couldn't have climaxed at that point without answering the questions that defined the show, so religion and mysticism became mere devices to grab interest. "Prophecy" was stacked up to build suspense for later in the season under the unspoken promise that it would pay off thematically, but in practice it just delayed our expectations, and in the end, deferred explanation to the next season, and again the next. At some point, I would actually say at "Scar," the writers began trying to rationalize the irrational.
Let's not forget that at one point the cylons were themselves a "mystical force." They were rarely granted POV; they were a force of nature. Giving the raiders pathos in "Scar" was the first attempt to try and explain them. Then we jumped into their basestar for a look-see, and all the trivia surrounding the final five, cylon society, the civil war, blah blah got churned up. Not necessarily in that order. My point is that mysticism is feeding on itself, raising technical questions with technical answers like, "what are Starbuck's visions?" "what is the role of the final five?" "who is the fifth?" "why are they revered?" etc. What they are not doing is posing meaningful thematic questions that deal with their characters' situations, like they once did. The one exception to this I can think of was Espenson's first episode this season, which was about Baltar's experience of religion, and why he needed it at that point in his life.
God (heh), I'm sorry about all the text. I've got another long one coming up on the subject of last night's episode, if you're interested.
All I have to say about Guess What's Coming to Dinner 2 is: ??
For a Part 2 it was remarkably inconclusive, and even non-continuing (i.e. where was Gaeta?). It moved the plot along, but was fairly predictable when it wasn't being confusing. Well-written twists should seem inevitable in retrospect, but I don't feel any of the major twists in this episode (which also happen to be the major story choices) achieve that. Let's see:
1) Lee becomes President. This one is perhaps excusable because it was just predictable, not confusing. From the moment that Zarek says to him "I bet you have someone in mind for the job" it's in the air, and Lampkin's almost subsequent criticism of Lee's "repressed ambition" seals the deal.
How it happened, compared to the other twists, was at least plausible. Adm. Adama's loathing of Zarek has been a constant throughout the show, and his willingness to ignore civilian law for the sake of his convictions plenty established, so at least it adds up in motive. But they still took too long with it. It didn't have to involve all that "who on this list could be the next candidate?" stuff, because there wasn't anyone else but Lee that the audience could plausibly accept. In this case, the "visceral logic" of the episode made obvious what the writer, working only to a plan, thought was a suspenseful dilemma.
2) Adama resigns as commander. Seriously, what the hell? Adama has "lost his objectivity" plenty of times in the past over Lee and over Starbuck especially. That he feels he needs to resign this time, I guess because of an out-of-place lecture from Lampkin, feels wacky. And why he thinks waiting for Roslyn at that spot will do him any good is even wackier. If he's a realist, what exactly makes him think that Roslyn, maybe regaining control of her situation, would assume the fleet would wait for her? A more irrational personality might jump at that hope, but Adama? His motives inadequately thought-out, all the goodbyes and the stoic glances don't really add up to much.
3) Lampkin. What was up with that dude, and why should we care? The revelation about the dead cat was unexpected, and superficially affecting, but it certainly didn't seem inevitable in retrospect. It was supposed to be a symbol for his survivor's guilt, holding onto the past I guess, but it's an unnecessary development for an unnecessary character in this episode. I was actually beginning to wonder whether Lampkin was a figment of Lee's imagination. After all, the only person Lampkin ever talks to is Lee, and he serves as a sort of mentor character that could be his subconscious or whatever. Of course, that would have been a crappy twist, too, but better than the weird cat thing. Then Lampkin goes to talk to Adama, which made my theory pretty obsolete.
Lampkin and Lee's relationship is such that it feels twee when their roles are reversed. Lampkin doesn't learn lessons, he gives them. That has been his only role in the show thus far. Contradicting it reduced the character practically to null. I can see why they did it: pass Lee the torch of wisdom as he moves onto the Presidency. What didn't work was trying to drum up sympathy for Lampkin who has no qualities as a protagonist. Giving the episodes scenes from his POV was a mistake, and so was giving him a lesson to learn.
That cliffhanger with the gun was odd, too. Even after it was over, I really had no idea why Lampkin might want to shoot Lee, even from his "survivor guilt" POV. What did Lee represent to him that was so abhorrent? There've been some guesses in this thread, but I'm not satisfied! 😡
**
It seems I tend to like mediocre episodes better when they come down from a height, like from Guess What's Coming to Dinner 1. This holds. I didn't think this ep. was terrible. I could see the parallels. I noticed a theme, something like "how people react to positions of power." But the shape of it was forced on the episode like a waffle. For every congruence there was a hasty plot resolution like "Athena should have her kid back—everyone needs family" (following Adama's respect for Lee, I guess????).
The direction was fine, sometimes quite clever, and the acting was, as usual, spiff, especially during Adama and Tigh's brawl. Whether or not that brawl was a good scene for story purposes is quite debatable, though. It, along with much of the plot, felt forced on the characters as they swapped and exchanged places on the roster that is BSG's list of positions (like musical chairs): who is President now? Which of the crew are on a mysterious mission? Who is pursuing love at the expense of his duty? Who is on a spiritual adventure?
For a Part 2 it was remarkably inconclusive, and even non-continuing (i.e. where was Gaeta?). It moved the plot along, but was fairly predictable when it wasn't being confusing. Well-written twists should seem inevitable in retrospect, but I don't feel any of the major twists in this episode (which also happen to be the major story choices) achieve that. Let's see:
1) Lee becomes President. This one is perhaps excusable because it was just predictable, not confusing. From the moment that Zarek says to him "I bet you have someone in mind for the job" it's in the air, and Lampkin's almost subsequent criticism of Lee's "repressed ambition" seals the deal.
How it happened, compared to the other twists, was at least plausible. Adm. Adama's loathing of Zarek has been a constant throughout the show, and his willingness to ignore civilian law for the sake of his convictions plenty established, so at least it adds up in motive. But they still took too long with it. It didn't have to involve all that "who on this list could be the next candidate?" stuff, because there wasn't anyone else but Lee that the audience could plausibly accept. In this case, the "visceral logic" of the episode made obvious what the writer, working only to a plan, thought was a suspenseful dilemma.
2) Adama resigns as commander. Seriously, what the hell? Adama has "lost his objectivity" plenty of times in the past over Lee and over Starbuck especially. That he feels he needs to resign this time, I guess because of an out-of-place lecture from Lampkin, feels wacky. And why he thinks waiting for Roslyn at that spot will do him any good is even wackier. If he's a realist, what exactly makes him think that Roslyn, maybe regaining control of her situation, would assume the fleet would wait for her? A more irrational personality might jump at that hope, but Adama? His motives inadequately thought-out, all the goodbyes and the stoic glances don't really add up to much.
3) Lampkin. What was up with that dude, and why should we care? The revelation about the dead cat was unexpected, and superficially affecting, but it certainly didn't seem inevitable in retrospect. It was supposed to be a symbol for his survivor's guilt, holding onto the past I guess, but it's an unnecessary development for an unnecessary character in this episode. I was actually beginning to wonder whether Lampkin was a figment of Lee's imagination. After all, the only person Lampkin ever talks to is Lee, and he serves as a sort of mentor character that could be his subconscious or whatever. Of course, that would have been a crappy twist, too, but better than the weird cat thing. Then Lampkin goes to talk to Adama, which made my theory pretty obsolete.
Lampkin and Lee's relationship is such that it feels twee when their roles are reversed. Lampkin doesn't learn lessons, he gives them. That has been his only role in the show thus far. Contradicting it reduced the character practically to null. I can see why they did it: pass Lee the torch of wisdom as he moves onto the Presidency. What didn't work was trying to drum up sympathy for Lampkin who has no qualities as a protagonist. Giving the episodes scenes from his POV was a mistake, and so was giving him a lesson to learn.
That cliffhanger with the gun was odd, too. Even after it was over, I really had no idea why Lampkin might want to shoot Lee, even from his "survivor guilt" POV. What did Lee represent to him that was so abhorrent? There've been some guesses in this thread, but I'm not satisfied! 😡
**
It seems I tend to like mediocre episodes better when they come down from a height, like from Guess What's Coming to Dinner 1. This holds. I didn't think this ep. was terrible. I could see the parallels. I noticed a theme, something like "how people react to positions of power." But the shape of it was forced on the episode like a waffle. For every congruence there was a hasty plot resolution like "Athena should have her kid back—everyone needs family" (following Adama's respect for Lee, I guess????).
The direction was fine, sometimes quite clever, and the acting was, as usual, spiff, especially during Adama and Tigh's brawl. Whether or not that brawl was a good scene for story purposes is quite debatable, though. It, along with much of the plot, felt forced on the characters as they swapped and exchanged places on the roster that is BSG's list of positions (like musical chairs): who is President now? Which of the crew are on a mysterious mission? Who is pursuing love at the expense of his duty? Who is on a spiritual adventure?
I have to disagree with you about "Scar." There were two reasons I liked this episode:
1. It showed that combat was dangerous and characters, albeit minor characters, would be killed off. Previous to this episode, pilots tended to survive even while dozens of Raiders were destroyed (most by Starbuck). The episode also used interesting POVs (gun camera for example) to tell it's story.
2. I think it added to the Cylons, especially the Centurion/Raider, because they weren't just drones, but were learning machines. That makes them scarier because over time all the Raiders would become ace pilots; the BSG CAP was fighting against time, so to speak.
The mystical aspect didn't reside, IMHO, with the Centurions/Raiders, but rather with Six and Baltar's visions.
I felt this last episode fell flat. I like Lampkin, but at this point, his character's story seems over, so why are we still getting it over Gaeta's? Lee was fated to become president as soon as Roslyn disappeared, but I'm not sure we needed an episode, especially when we have so few, to get there, especially through Lampkin.
As for Adama, again a character is required to wander off into the weeds in order to further the plot.
Loved the fight between Adama and Tigh because of the acting, I could watch those two bark at each other for an hour.
I think I'd be more patient and forgiving if BSG had another season to work out it's promised plot-lines. But, since time is short, screwing around with Lampkin's apparent visions of his dead cat seems wasted.
As for Adama, again a character is required to wander off into the weeds in order to further the plot.
Loved the fight between Adama and Tigh because of the acting, I could watch those two bark at each other for an hour.
I think I'd be more patient and forgiving if BSG had another season to work out it's promised plot-lines. But, since time is short, screwing around with Lampkin's apparent visions of his dead cat seems wasted.
I liked this idea as well. For what it's worth I would have liked to see it become more of an issue for the fleet.
Oh definitely. That was a quality scene, even more so because Adama is normally so in control of the anger he's obviously feeling. Olmos and Hogan are brilliant at getting raw emotions across 🙂
Haha, between spending five minutes trying to figure out which episode was nine and how mind-numbingly long the posts on the last page of this thread have gotten... 😱
I liked it a lot. I thought the Baltar comic relief was a little meh. The battle was a little contrived. Not to overanalyze, but the Cylons suddenly show up and just send out heavy raiders, which we've never seen them do before... and they get away with the trojan horse idea.
Generally, I thought the rest was great. Continuing the love story between Roslin and Adama was really nice. On a positive comedy note, nicely played by D'Anna. Although Roslin still seems like the strongest candidate, I admit that Kara is solidly back in the running. My earlier qualm about her being married to a Cylon seems moot since Tigh supposedly has impregnated Caprica. Although it would be more interesting if Caprica baby were parthogenic. 🙂 I don't think Baltar is out either.
Obviously from the preview, they are onto at least everyone but Tori as of the next episode. Wonder if that's cuz Tori sells them out?
I'm really enjoying the way the season is going. 🙂
I liked this episode, but I didn't love this episode. Some of this is due to the inherent structural problem of Helo's decision to break his word with Athena for duty's sake. Considering that he once went against duty to protect Athena and their baby, this seems like another example of characters acting against their previous selves to serve the writers.
The battle was good, although I agree that during a Cylon Civil War an arrival of a Basestar and subsequent launch of Heavy Raiders wouldn't be ignored, but I liked the scene and the tension between the human pilots and the "skin-job" versions piloting the Raiders. Also interesting, this means that HRs are piloted by "skin-jobs" which has an interesting connotation for the early episode when the Centurions boarded BSG by crashing a HR into the flight deck.
Interesting point about Caprica's baby being parthogenic, but Tigh seemed disturbed as in "whoops" and not "whaddaya mean, me?" So, Tigh clearly had a part in it.
Could this be something new caused by the lobotomising of the Raiders by the #1s earlier in this series? I'm still certain that the changes to the automaton Cylons is going to come back and bite the skin-jobs on the arse before the end, maybe even wipe them out entirely leaving the humans against the old-style Cylons as with the original series.
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