The Official Battlestar Galactica Thread : SPOILERS

[hulugu]

....
One or two interesting twists, but otherwise kind of meandering. The suicide theme was mostly in the way for me; it was well dramatized, but not very fully explored, and not really central to the story what with all the "main" plot threads competing with it for our attention....

I felt it was disservice to the character to end her story this way. It didn't seem to do much except push Adama further into despair/drunkenness so he could finally confront Tigh and that didn't ring true to me.

Starbuck discovering her own corpse was affecting as an image, but it would have been more potent if we understood the implications....

Some decent direction: I quite liked peering through Roslyn's burning book at Starbuck building her pier in the twilight.

I really enjoyed how Leoben and Starbuck first found just a piece of wing, then a little more and then finally the cockpit with the charred body. That scene and the note that everyone on Earth were cylons were the best moments. Of course, I'm completely disturbed that Leoben bolted after hearing what the Hybrid told Starbuck and that she's hiding the truth from everyone else.

Also, I was fairly bored by the webisodes, but then I usually am. Not to diss on the story, which actually wasn't that bad, but it would have been better as a single vignette. I'm just not sold on the format.

I'm not thrilled by them either, I think the episodes are too short.

 

[Queso]

I felt it was disservice to the character to end her story this way. It didn't seem to do much except push Adama further into despair/drunkenness so he could finally confront Tigh and that didn't ring true to me.

They had to kill off one of the main characters to show just how badly the effect of finding a dead Earth would be on the remaining humans. If someone we had no back story of had committed suicide the feeling of despair they were attempting to convey wouldn't have had the same power.

 

[Marble]

They had to kill off one of the main characters to show just how badly the effect of finding a dead Earth would be on the remaining humans. If someone we had no back story of had committed suicide the feeling of despair they were attempting to convey wouldn't have had the same power.

Exactly. The fact that they made this decision based on the requirements of the plot and not because the character had completed her journey in a way that was meaningful as a whole is what's backwards. BSG has been plotted in this "outside in" way for a while now, ever since finding Earth became more important than exploring identity and humanity.

 

[hulugu]

They had to kill off one of the main characters to show just how badly the effect of finding a dead Earth would be on the remaining humans. If someone we had no back story of had committed suicide the feeling of despair they were attempting to convey wouldn't have had the same power.

You're probably right. It just seemed like Dee, a character who had essentially disappeared for a while, suddenly returns for but a moment and then dies. It's the flaw of BSG. Rather than characters acting in some organic way, instead they are used relentlessly as symbols or actors to further the plot. Sometimes, in the case of Starbuck's death, it works and sometimes it rings cruel and contrived.

 

[HydroMan]

I say "woohoo" for the start of the tail end of BSG, all was fine for me (Dee included) except the part that involves Ellen. As for Starbuck hmmm?

 

[nagromme]

Great premiere--many surprises I would NEVER have imagined. I was in doubt that there could really be that much story left to tell, but it seems there is!

I had to laugh at the revelation of the fifth. I don't think anybody guessed that one! (In fact, I thought the fifth would be the series finale revelation.) But it explains why Number Three wavered between referring to the final five vs. only four.

I thought all the emotional breakdowns (including Dee's) made good sense--a nearly intolerable journey has ended, and the end was no better than what they left. Despair and confusion are the realistic consequences.

Re Leoben: if he's scared, I'm scared!

I can't help wondering how all of this may tie into the Caprica series. (Cylons created by the Graystones? Or not really?)

Spoiler warning--I will now sum up the current story:

The Cylons were not created by Man.

They did not evolve.

There are only a few copies left.

And they have no plan.

39,000 survivors, in search of a home, not called Earth.

There used to be 12 Cylon models but one is gone.

All are known.

None live in secret.

None will be revealed.

A guy played Bob Dylan songs and then 2,000 years later played pro basketball before becoming a pilot.

 

[numbersyx]

It was a great episode and Dee's suicide was shocking (she was the cutest girl on the show). The really shocking thing is that the Cylons were not created by man which is what the original premise of the show was.

And what is with this Starbuck thing? Is there some sort of time travel aspect to the story now. She disappeared in season 3 then returned after going to Earth? Is the dead Starbuck the one that we saw from seasons 1-3 and the current one a time travelling one? Great show. I will be sorely disappointed when it ends...

 

[Marble]

Spoiler warning--I will now sum up the current story:

The Cylons were not created by Man.

They did not evolve.

There are only a few copies left.

And they have no plan.

39,000 survivors, in search of a home, not called Earth.

There used to be 12 Cylon models but one is gone.

All are known.

None live in secret.

None will be revealed.

A guy played Bob Dylan songs and then 2,000 years later played pro basketball before becoming a pilot.

Ha ha! Very good.

 

[nagromme]

The really shocking thing is that the Cylons were not created by man which is what the original premise of the show was.

I think the truth will end up in-between: the Cylons WERE created by Man, but secretly influenced/helped/controlled by the ancient Cylons. (Which is why I wonder about the new Caprica series.) Of course, those ancient Cylons didn't use the term Cylon--that's a recent word. Maybe they just thought of themselves as a type of human!

We already knew that Saul was around at the time of the FIRST (Centurion) war. So the Cylons were up to more than anyone (even the known 7) were aware, even back when the human-made Cylons were "young."

Is there some sort of time travel aspect to the story now. She disappeared in season 3 then returned after going to Earth? Is the dead Starbuck the one that we saw from seasons 1-3 and the current one a time travelling one? Great show. I will be sorely disappointed when it ends...

I'd say Starbuck is a Cylon, except that makes one too many Cylons! Then I thought she might be an Ellen model, and will look like Ellen when she ages... except Saul would have seen plenty of young pictures of Ellen. Doesn't really work. I guess she could be some whole other Cylon category, like the Hybrids and the Centurions.

We also don't really KNOW who that corpse is, we only know whose dogtags it was wearing. So I say anything's possible--but time travel doesn't seem likely to me. That would seem to stretch the bounds of the series. A faster-than-light jump from the maelstrom to Earth as she exploded would be within bounds: FTL technology exists. But then exactly who transported her (in both directions)? I would have thought Leoben in a Heavy Raider... but he seems completely surprised by the whole thing. I think strings are being pulled by parties (the ancient Cylons?) that we haven't seen yet.

SERIES-END SPOILER WARNING (just my own theory, though):

I also think it will turn out that the the 13th tribe didn't go TO Earth... they went BACK to Earth. And that humanity (and/or Cylons--the two races must have some relation) came from Earth to Kobol to begin with. Meaning, we today are living the beginning of the whole story. But are we the race known on the show as humans, or the race known as Cylons?

I think we're humans, and that we'll depart (some of us? all of us?) for Kobol someday, and then when the 13th tribe (the Cylons) flees to Earth (finding it empty? defeating us remaining humans?) that will be the start of the Cylons on Earth. Which makes me think the Cylons were created on Kobol and then fled their "masters" back to Earth, OR that the Cylons were always on Kobol (possibly they were the "gods." We don't really know what catastrophe caused humanity to flee Kobol: maybe the Cylons caused it.

It's also plausible that the Cylons were created here on Earth, and they DROVE humans to flee to Kobol (maybe with some secret Cylons along as well). If that's the case, the 13th tribe doesn't have to be Cylons after all--they could have been humans. The Cylons were ALREADY on Earth when the 13th tribe came back. (Did the 13th tribe of humans then nuke the Cylons on Earth?)

And remember: Six said that the Cylons know more about Colonial religion than the humans themselves. That implies a Cylon-Kobol link.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think that the Heavy Raider (operated by who??) rescued Kara from her Viper's explosion and she never died. Remember, she had her hand on the ejection lever, and Heavy Raiders can carry people. Then, whoever-it-was planted Kara's wreckage on Earth, including putting Kara's gear on some other body. Lastly, they gave Kara a new Viper, primed to seek out the beacon of the damaged Viper. Kara remembers little of this of course. Who did all this and why? I think it has something to do with the "plan" (mentioned by ancient-Ellen) of the ancient Cylons.

I used to think the big Cylon "Plan" was nothing more than religiously-motivated genocide (no secret) plus a Cylon-human breeding program (secret at first). Then Caprica Six and Boomer convinced them to change the Plan (at least the genocide part). But NOW I'm thinking the Cylon Plan may be much larger (and older), and that even the Cylons themselves don't know it yet!

 

[szark]

But NOW I'm thinking the Cylon Plan may be much larger (and older), and that even the Cylons themselves don't know it yet!

Well, since the writers are making it all up as they go along, and don't have any real plan themselves, I think you're probably right. Of course, they're making another BSG-based movie called "The Plan," so maybe they'll finally invent a plan for the cylons.

Here's an interesting set of interviews with some of the show's creators which references the "making it up as they go along" aspect:

At the beginning of the third season, Baltar had gone to live on the Cylon base ship for a string of episodes. And it was really that plot move that threw into relief -- well, once Baltar’s over in the Cylon world, why wouldn’t he see all 12 of them? How could we get around that and parcel that out? Then I had this idea, well, what if it’s not random? What if there’s a meaning to the fact that we haven’t seen the five of them? And that’s how the Final Five became part of the mythos.

 

[nagromme]

I don't mind "making it up as they go"--in fact, with the unpredictable nature of TV, it's unavoidable--just as long as they have the skill to make up something that fits together Galactica and Lost seem likely to fit. Other shows... not as successful.

I can't speculate on what has been planned from the start (some things probably were--many things not). But NOW we're seeing the end, written when the writers knew the final destination. So the speculation gets more fun

 

[Marble]

I used to think the big Cylon "Plan" was nothing more than religiously-motivated genocide (no secret) plus a Cylon-human breeding program (secret at first). Then Caprica Six and Boomer convinced them to change the Plan (at least the genocide part). But NOW I'm thinking the Cylon Plan may be much larger (and older), and that even the Cylons themselves don't know it yet!

That would forgive much of the series in my eyes. It's been nothing but embarrassing to think that the "plan" was this thing the writers couldn't figure out even after repeatedly feeding us prophecy. Of course it had to grow organically, but when you present a fact directly to an audience (like "the cylons have a plan"), that's a contract that you break at your peril.

There are any number of icebergs this show can hit before the end, but I know there is a right course somewhere between them. I hope it finds its way there.

 

[DISCOMUNICATION]

Not bad. Too bad my season pass to iTunes still hasn't updated yet. Had to watch it on Hulu which is fine for the first 5 episodes, but after that they are going to go back to making you wait over a week from the broadcast before they post new episodes.

Thoughts:
Starbuck is some sort of Red Dwarf style time paradox. She is her own mother. She didn't see herself dead, but her mother or grandmother or daughter. Would add more meaning to her mother being so mad at her growing up and teaching her the "wrong lessons" about her destiny. Also why when she "died" she was seeing her mother's last moments otherwise that whole "Maelstrom" episode would seem pretty pointless if it doesn't link back to anything. Could factor in the Leoben obesetion and the "not Leoben" in her visions. Father/lover maybe in the future or past? She will bring humanity to it's end... and beginning?...

Or she's a clone. Everybody is a clone. The earth cylons are the original race. The downloaded cylons after the destruction of earth seeded human/clone life on Kobol. The Lords of Kobol. The humans make the same mistakes the earth cylons did. Like parents like children. The seven programed to forget cylons are some sort of fail safe or restart button. It just keeps happening till the children get it right whatever "it" or the "plan" is. Live in peace? Be less of a warlike people. Be more accepting of artificial life be it organic or machine. The failure being the first cylon war 40 years ago.

Anyway I would still like to know what is up with Head Six/Head Baltar, proficies, programming, plans, blah...

 

[Much Ado]

Help... where is this all going?

 

[atszyman]

I don't mind "making it up as they go"--in fact, with the unpredictable nature of TV, it's unavoidable--just as long as they have the skill to make up something that fits together Galactica and Lost seem likely to fit. Other shows... not as successful.

Galactica and Lost still have to prove themselves. Galactica we'll be able to render a final judgement on this year, Lost we have to wait a couple more seasons. If they end them badly it will ruin the whole series, if the do OK, I'll be happy I didn't waste 4 or more seasons watching, if they do it well, then I will sing it's praises for many years to come.

I'm more optimistic about BSG, Lost seems to be at a point where they have so many questions with so few episodes that it seems like whatever they can pull off will be a letdown.

 

[Much Ado]

I'm more optimistic about BSG, Lost seems to be at a point where they have so many questions with so few episodes that it seems like whatever they can pull off will be a letdown.

Also, Lost is basically driven by its central mysteries, which will ultimately have to be revealed, either ruining or making the entire show. BSG doesn't have that pressure- it's already served up some excellent series without worrying about the Final Five plotline etc.

Less hangs on the BSG ending as it does the Lost finale.

 

[atszyman]

Less hangs on the BSG ending as it does the Lost finale.

Actually I think both have as much hanging on their finales. A bad finale for either could sour the whole series. While both have created some exceptional TV and entertainment value, they could manage to cheapen the whole with a crappy ending. Lost has more to accomplish in it's remaining episodes than BSG, but both could still ruin the series if not done well.

 

[iAthena]

I don't mind "making it up as they go"--in fact, with the unpredictable nature of TV, it's unavoidable--just as long as they have the skill to make up something that fits together Galactica and Lost seem likely to fit. Other shows... not as successful.

I can't speculate on what has been planned from the start (some things probably were--many things not). But NOW we're seeing the end, written when the writers knew the final destination. So the speculation gets more fun

I don't mind a little looseness in the plot line as long as they follow a well thought out arc. I wonder how much of this "arc" planning was used on this series though.

 

[nagromme]

The finale and how things wrap up will be huge factors in how I judge the show. (And Lost as well. But I agree, BSG had more going for it even if the plan/mystery is lame. It has great characters and great stories along the way. It will be worth re-watching. Lost, much as I enjoy it, may not be so enjoyable a second time around with the mystery removed. The characters and subplots just aren't of the same quality.)

BSG is still a great series (one I plan to own) even if the very end disappoints... but that would be, well, disappointing! Thankfully, this "beginning of the end" does not disappoint.

 

[cossie]

I only got to see the first of the new episodes on Tuesday, I really enjoyed it as I've been waiting so long for the remainder of this season to start.

I thought Dee's death was pretty harsh but I think they needed to do something like that to show just how demoralising the effect of a nuked Earth was. It was what kept them all going from earlier in the entire series. I guess Dee really just had enough - things with her and Lee were far from great. I don't think it would've worked with anyone else as Dee is one of the few characters without any major flaws...I can't even remember a bad thing she did other than help to rig the election.

The one big thing that I got out of the revelation of the 5th Cylon is what does it mean to be human? Tigh, Anders etc all thought they were human and so did everyone around them. I'm doing post grad study in artificial intelligence so this sort of stuff really interests me...I also used to get a (very nerdy) kick out of Caprica 6 asking people "Are you alive?" when she'd first meet them.

I can't wait to see how it all plays out.

 

[~Shard~]

I am not convinced that Ellen is the final Cylon. I seriously doubt they would do a reveal like that in the manner that they did, at the very end of the show and based on Tigh's memories - seems to emotional and thus subjective. On the other hand, it was mentioned at one point that the final Cylon was not in the fleet (which would align with it being Ellen), Tigh did "see" Ellen in Caprica 6 which would make sense, and lastly, obviously if Tigh's memories are true, then Ellen was around thousands of years ago so, well, she'd have to be a Cylon. That being said though, something odd seems to be going on with Starbuck and her corpse with respect to time and space, so whatever the explanation is there could also be an explanation for Ellen.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that I would not assume it is a foregone conclusion that Ellen is indeed the final Cylon - lots of evidence to support it as I have cited above, but I won't believe it just quite yet - this is BSG after all...

 

[Marble]

Spoiler's for 4x12 "The Disquiet that Follows my Soul":



Last night's ep. wasn't the most climactic, but it put together a solid foundation for the brewing revolution (which hopefully means Zarek will get some screen time doing something other than look like a smarmy stoat), and it cut out the plot hole around Tyrol's baby. I guess some will be disappointed that we're not blazing a trail to the finale yet, but even without the bells and whistles this episode was more satisfying than most.

Ron Moore just has this grasp of pace and drama that makes his scenes sparkle. Roslyn's jog was probably one of the most watchable sequences this season: it reflected a "point of no return" for her character, and extends it into the premise of the episode, which is "we all deserve to live." Even the tiny parts of the episode like Baltar's sermon and Cottle's irascible "she'll live" when his nurse complains about his cigarette reinforces the theme. I'm convinced this sense of meaningfulness is what makes Moore's writing special, beyond the obviously elegant technique: Moore's episodes have a higher number of dialogue-free scenes than most, and they visit a wider variety of locations on Galactica. The dialogue-free scenes in particular allow McCreary's music to manipulate us more directly, giving a sense of moment. His various parallel storylines (Starbuck vs. Gaeta, Lee vs. Zarek, Adama and Roslyn, etc.) all unify on the theme. It's just good form all around.

I for one am glad Moore will be topping off his own saga with the final two-parter, "Daybreak."

 

[atszyman]

I am not convinced that Ellen is the final Cylon.

The 12th model for sure, although not necessarily the final.

The crawl at the beginning pretty much gave that much away, instead of the normal, 12 Cylon models, X of which are known, Y will be revealed. Simply the number of survivors, Searching for a home.

 

[~Shard~]

The 12th model for sure, although not necessarily the final.

The crawl at the beginning pretty much gave that much away, instead of the normal, 12 Cylon models, X of which are known, Y will be revealed. Simply the number of survivors, Searching for a home.

Yeah, I guess - as I cited above myself, there are many reasons why she probably is the fifth, but I was just surprised and suspicious that they would reveal it in such a way. If there's one thing I've learned from watching BSG it's to take nothing for granted, so I guess I made a point of not just automatically going along with it without questioning it.

 

[Tilpots]

So when Lee told the reporters that it was a "she," what and who exactly was he referring to? Ellen being the final Cylon? If so, does that mean Tigh told revealed it, and to whom, when?