The REAL reason you cannot downgrade

[numlock]

Somehow "you have to accept" seems to be the opposite of "No part of this process is 'Forced'".

I guess you can say that perhaps people agree to be forced...not sure if that makes it all that much better really.

modern consumer rights. be thankful you to just exist

Older software on newer phones might cause the unintended issues with all types of apps and cause a negative user experience.

plenty of issues being reported with new os on older devices (like ipad 3) the already download ios update sits there and takes space on my moms ipad. it works both ways but like with many things and apple they have their tunnel vision

 

[me7]

Seriously though, Apple has changed my iPad to something I would never have bought. I don't think they have the right to do so.

That's the important point that many people forget. You PAID MONEY for the original product because you want it the way it was.

 

[Tyler23]

That's the important point that many people forget. You PAID MONEY for the original product because you want it the way it was.

Am I the only one who actually reads the EULAs? It says the following about iOS updates:

(b) Apple, at its discretion, may make available future iOS Software Updates for your iOS Device. The iOS Software Updates, if any, may not necessarily include all existing software features or new features that Apple releases for newer or other models of iOS Devices. The terms of this License will govern any iOS Software Updates provided by Apple that replace and/or supplement the Original iOS
Software product, unless such iOS Software Update is accompanied by a separate license in which case the terms of that license will govern.

It specifically states that Apple, when and if it wants to, may make a software update AVAILABLE. It doesn't say anything about software downgrades/making older versions UNavailable! Then it should have said something along these lines:

Apple, at its discretion, may make available future iOS Software Updates for your iOS Device, and may choose to make specific versions of iOS unavailable for download, installation and/or usage on your iOS device, but only if and when an iOS update has been released for your iOS device. The iOS Software Updates, if any, may not necessarily include all existing software features or new features that Apple releases for newer or other models of iOS Devices. The terms of this License will govern any iOS Software Updates provided by Apple that replace and/or supplement the Original iOS
Software product, unless such iOS Software Update is accompanied by a separate license in which case the terms of that license will govern.

So it doesn't specifically say anything about downgrades and this is all I could find about updates. This one line worries me though, because it's very vague:

The terms of this License will govern any iOS Software Updates provided by Apple that REPLACE and/or supplement the Original iOS
Software product, unless such iOS Software Update is accompanied by a separate license in which case the terms of that license will govern.

I don't know whether usage of the word "replace" is enough in to prohibit iOS downgrades, especially where I'm from (European consumer rights rock!).

Seriously though, Apple has changed my iPad to something I would never have bought. I don't think they have the right to do so.

What people don't understand, is Apple didn't change your iPad. You selected to update, so the onus is on you.

 

[abshole765]

What people don't understand, is Apple didn't change your iPad. You selected to update, so the onus is on you.

They still forced a large download on you, whether or not you ever planned on upgrading.

 

[NT1440]

Why would Apple wants to stop singing older version? I get the reason Apple wants to check signature of particular firmware. That is to prevent bad ipsw file screwing your iOS device. But with legit firmware, there is no reason to not sign it...

Version x.01 has a bug that bypasses the security lock and enables access to a locked device. Apple updates to x.02 and stops signing the software with known bugs and security holes.

Makes sense, no?

 

[C DM]

Version x.01 has a bug that bypasses the security lock and enables access to a locked device. Apple updates to x.02 and stops signing the software with known bugs and security holes.

Makes sense, no?

Sure, but 6.1.4 or 6.1.3 seem to be fine in that respect given that Apple is perfectly happy allowing that for 3GS phones even today.

 

[goobot]

They dont want you to downgrade and jailbreak, tho since ios 7 it is kinda good since people wouldn't be able to get around activation lock.

 

[NT1440]

Sure, but 6.1.4 or 6.1.3 seem to be fine in that respect given that Apple is perfectly happy allowing that for 3GS phones even today.

For end of life products you'll just stay on the last available firmware for it, as it will still be signed. Note that if you are on 6.1.4 you can't downgrade to 6.1.3

 

[C DM]

For end of life products you'll just stay on the last available firmware for it, as it will still be signed. Note that if you are on 6.1.4 you can't downgrade to 6.1.3

Right, what I meant is that if that (older) version is good enough for those devices then the whole security or stability aspect doesn't really apply as a reason why other (newer) devices capable of using that version can't downgrade to it.

----------

They dont want you to downgrade and jailbreak, tho since ios 7 it is kinda good since people wouldn't be able to get around activation lock.

They can still require activation lock information when downgrading if they wanted to support that, so that shouldn't really be an issue.

 

[NT1440]

Right, what I meant is that if that (older) version is good enough for those devices then the whole security or stability aspect doesn't really apply as a reason why other (newer) devices capable of using that version can't downgrade to it.

When you're business model relies on pushing out an entirely new OS yearly, you have to stop supporting old ones at some point. By having users as up to date as possible it eliminates the logistical nightmare of supporting users that want to downgrade between versions.

Frankly, there is extremely small pool of people who downgrade. They are the jail breakers (whom apple doesn't want to support anyway), and those who need an older version because one of their apps doesn't support the new OS. Apple would rather have the pressure be on the developer to stay up to date rather than use resources on supporting systems that are only downgraded because a 3rd party dev is taking their sweet time.


It's complicated, there are definite decisions being made that may seem arbitrary but from a "lets provide the best user experience for the majority" standpoint it makes sense.

 

[me7]

Frankly, there is extremely small pool of people who downgrade. They are the jail breakers (whom apple doesn't want to support anyway), and those who need an older version because one of their apps doesn't support the new OS.

What about the people who own iPod touches (that cost up to 430€ - which translates to 590 USD !!!) that are suddenly crippled by the unbelievably stupid music app in iOS7?

...and those who need an older version because one of their apps doesn't support the new OS. Apple would rather have the pressure be on the developer to stay up to date rather than use resources on supporting systems that are only downgraded because a 3rd party dev is taking their sweet time.

So people who don't want to use the new music app are hindering progress? Is that what you want to say? Do you seriously consider having to scroll through lists of hundreds of songs "progress"?
Nobody asks any additional support for any apps. If you need support for third party apps, you have to stay on a recent version. I for my part don't have any apps installed on my iPod. I just use it for music.

It's complicated, there are definite decisions being made that may seem arbitrary but from a "lets provide the best user experience for the majority" standpoint it makes sense.

No, it doesn't because iOS7 in its current state is a disastrous user experience. Apple just doesn't want to admit that they made a mistake.

 

[NT1440]

What about the people who own iPod touches (that cost up to 430€ - which translates to 590 USD !!!) that are suddenly crippled by the unbelievably stupid music app in iOS7?


So people who don't want to use the new music app are hindering progress? Is that what you want to say? Do you seriously consider having to scroll through lists of hundreds of songs "progress"?
Nobody asks any additional support for any apps. If you need support for third party apps, you have to stay on a recent version. I for my part don't have any apps installed on my iPod. I just use it for music.


No, it doesn't because iOS7 in its current state is a disastrous user experience. Apple just doesn't want to admit that they made a mistake.

Obviously you had a rant ready to go, because none of what you wrote had anything to do with my post.

Never once did I say that older users are hindering progress.

As for scrolling, I have no idea where that came from. You don't have an alphabetic scroller on the right hand side?

Listen, I truly don't care what you think about iOS 7 (or that fact that you chose to update), I was just laying out what is obviously Apple's approach to downgrading.

I didn't say it's right, I didn't say it was good for all users, I didn't even talk about iOS7's UI, I just laid out what I see as Apple's approach which has clearly been for years "forget about the past, we are focusing our efforts on whats ahead". You've got a bone to pick clearly, but I don't work for apple, so don't project your dissatisfaction with your choices onto me or my posts. Take it to Apple.

 

[rickkreuk]

What people don't understand, is Apple didn't change your iPad. You selected to update, so the onus is on you.

Haha, you're being unbelievably funny and ignorant. No, I didn't "select" the update. My iPad became stuck in a bootloop and I was forced to restore it. And I hadn't even jailbroken it. And even if I had accepted the update, it wouldn't make it any less wrong that there isn't a way back.

 

[Tyler23]

Haha, you're being unbelievably funny and ignorant. No, I didn't "select" the update. My iPad became stuck in a bootloop and I was forced to restore it. And I hadn't even jailbroken it. And even if I had accepted the update, it wouldn't make it any less wrong that there isn't a way back.

Those are Apple's policies. Don't like them? Write them and express your feelings, then stop buying Apple products so you vote with your wallet.

Seriously, people these days.

 

[glawrence33]

Those are Apple's policies. Don't like them? Write them and express your feelings, then stop buying Apple products so you vote with your wallet.



Seriously, people these days.

Could not of said it better myself

 

[me7]

Those are Apple's policies. Don't like them? Write them and express your feelings, then stop buying Apple products so you vote with your wallet.

Seriously, people these days.

It's not that simple. It would be that simple if Apple gave refunds to people who dislike iOS7. What they did instead is take our money and cripple our devices afterwards. I already voted with my wallet by purchasing my device with iOS6. I told them that this was what I wanted. With iOS7, Apple is ignoring my vote, but wants to keep my money.

 

[Brian Y]

Right, so let me give you two usage scenarios.

Your iPhone is on iOS 6. You upgrade to iOS 7 - doing so updates the modem firmware. You then downgrade to iOS 6, meaning that the firmware in the modem is incompatible with the software you're using. You can no longer make/receive calls.

--

Your iPhone is on iOS 6. You upgrade to iOS 7, upgrading all your apps along the way. You then restore back to iOS 6, and wonder why your apps stopped working, since they're all using the new APIs from iOS 7.

At the end of the day, nobody forced you to (a) buy an Apple device (b) not read the T&C or (c) upgrade.

 

[me7]

Obviously you had a rant ready to go, because none of what you wrote had anything to do with my post.
Never once did I say that older users are hindering progress.

You did. You said that people downgrading to iOS6 would cause developers to allocate resources to maintenance of old versions. It was the centerpiece of your post.

As for scrolling, I have no idea where that came from. You don't have an alphabetic scroller on the right hand side?

No, I don't have that. When I pick an artist, I get ALL of the songs of that artist at once with no alphabetic scroller. It's ridiculous on an mp3 player that costs 430€ (590 USD) in Europe. And it worked just fine prior to the iOS7 update.

Listen, I truly don't care what you think about iOS 7 (or that fact that you chose to update), I was just laying out what is obviously Apple's approach to downgrading.

I think you're wrong there. It's not what's best for the users, just about what's best for Apple's marketing campaign. iOS7 is like Windows Vista, but Vista users were able do downgrade, causing negative press. Apple however can praise the high adoption rate of iOS7 even though users are displeased with it.

I didn't say it's right, I didn't say it was good for all users, I didn't even talk about iOS7's UI, I just laid out what I see as Apple's approach which has clearly been for years "forget about the past, we are focusing our efforts on whats ahead". You've got a bone to pick clearly, but I don't work for apple, so don't project your dissatisfaction with your choices onto me or my posts. Take it to Apple.

The iOS7 music app is not the future, it's the past. It's a fall-back to late 1990's mp3 players that had no proper menu structure and support for large music libraries. I seriously consider iOS7 to be a vastly inferior OS for mp3 players than iOS6 was.

 

[C DM]

Right, so let me give you two usage scenarios.

Your iPhone is on iOS 6. You upgrade to iOS 7 - doing so updates the modem firmware. You then downgrade to iOS 6, meaning that the firmware in the modem is incompatible with the software you're using. You can no longer make/receive calls.

--

Your iPhone is on iOS 6. You upgrade to iOS 7, upgrading all your apps along the way. You then restore back to iOS 6, and wonder why your apps stopped working, since they're all using the new APIs from iOS 7.

At the end of the day, nobody forced you to (a) buy an Apple device (b) not read the T&C or (c) upgrade.

What would this be in reference to? There's no way to downgrade as it is, so none of this would apply. If there was a supported way to do it then things of that nature would be addressed. So kind of irrelevant either way it would seem.

----------

When you're business model relies on pushing out an entirely new OS yearly, you have to stop supporting old ones at some point. By having users as up to date as possible it eliminates the logistical nightmare of supporting users that want to downgrade between versions.

Frankly, there is extremely small pool of people who downgrade. They are the jail breakers (whom apple doesn't want to support anyway), and those who need an older version because one of their apps doesn't support the new OS. Apple would rather have the pressure be on the developer to stay up to date rather than use resources on supporting systems that are only downgraded because a 3rd party dev is taking their sweet time.


It's complicated, there are definite decisions being made that may seem arbitrary but from a "lets provide the best user experience for the majority" standpoint it makes sense.

After iOS 7 it's quite hard to make or support a statement like that without a simple ability to downgrade being provided.

It's certainly understandable why Apple might not want any of that, that's almost a given, but that doesn't change anything for the typical (or even atypical) user who wants what worked and works for them and not something that they ended up getting, perhaps without ever knowing about it or without even wanting it due to them needing to restore for some reason, for example.

 

[Menneisyys2]

They still forced a large download on you, whether or not you ever planned on upgrading.

And, in certain circumstances (total system crash or have to get the device exchanged / repaired) you ARE forced to upgrade.

Disgusting, Apple!

----------

No, it doesn't because iOS7 in its current state is a disastrous user experience. Apple just doesn't want to admit that they made a mistake.

but they did with "you're holding it wrong!" (And, at the same time, silently starting to hire aerial engineers, as was also fromtpaged by MR...)

 

[rickkreuk]

Right, so let me give you two usage scenarios.

Your iPhone is on iOS 6. You upgrade to iOS 7 - doing so updates the modem firmware. You then downgrade to iOS 6, meaning that the firmware in the modem is incompatible with the software you're using. You can no longer make/receive calls.

--

Your iPhone is on iOS 6. You upgrade to iOS 7, upgrading all your apps along the way. You then restore back to iOS 6, and wonder why your apps stopped working, since they're all using the new APIs from iOS 7.

At the end of the day, nobody forced you to (a) buy an Apple device (b) not read the T&C or (c) upgrade.

The only reason the modem firmware can't be downgraded is that Apple doesn't allow it. If Apple would allow iOS downgrades, modem firmware downgrades would be possible as well. Furthermore, this doesn't even apply to a wifi iPad.

Apps do not get updated when updating to iOS 7. And even if they were updated, most of them would still support iOS 6.

I have up until now accepted that I couldn't downgrade, but only because iOS just got better. It didn't change much since iOS 4 actually, but a lot of features were added.But now, my device has turned into something I would not even have considered buying!

I have voted by buying an iOS 6 device, and now I'm voting by not buying a new device AT ALL. Because there's nothing that comes even close to the perfection of iOS 6.

Yes, I was forced to update and I have read the EULA, and there's NOTHING in it about iOS downgrades. I suggest you read it, it's only ten pages A4.

 

[Brian Y]

The only reason the modem firmware can't be downgraded is that Apple doesn't allow it. If Apple would allow iOS downgrades, modem firmware downgrades would be possible as well. Furthermore, this doesn't even apply to a wifi iPad.

Apps do not get updated when updating to iOS 7. And even if they were updated, most of them would still support iOS 6.

I have up until now accepted that I couldn't downgrade, but only because iOS just got better. It didn't change much since iOS 4 actually, but a lot of features were added.But now, my device has turned into something I would not even have considered buying!

I have voted by buying an iOS 6 device, and now I'm voting by not buying a new device AT ALL. Because there's nothing that comes even close to the perfection of iOS 6.

Yes, I was forced to update and I have read the EULA, and there's NOTHING in it about iOS downgrades. I suggest you read it, it's only ten pages A4.

How were you forced to upgrade?

 

[rickkreuk]

How were you forced to upgrade?

By having to restore after my (unjailbroken) iPad refused to boot.

 

[rickkreuk]

And for all the people saying offering downgrades is simply impossible:

At this moment, Apple is still signing iOS 4.1 (which came out in 2010!) for the iPhone 3GS, even though the most recent firmware is iOS 6.1.3! Thus, downgrading an iPhone 3GS from iOS 6.1.3 to 4.1 is perfectly possible (and can be done through iTunes)! There is NO reason Apple couldn't do the same for iOS 7 to iOS 6 for iPhone 4, 4S and 5. Oh, maybe there is: they want to limit customer choice and prevent jailbreaking. Why do people accept Apple's lies? Apple could enable iOS downgrades with the flip of a switch (it's literally THAT simple). Go and read some stuff about SHSH blobs and Aptickets, Apple CAN make downgrades possible. PLEASE, don't start whining about how YOU don't need or want downgrades to be possible: it wouldn't hurt you in ANY way if downgrades were possible. If you're worried about activation lock, there are more ways to circumvent it apart from jailbreaking.

 

[sracer]

And for all the people saying offering downgrades is simply impossible:

At this moment, Apple is still signing iOS 4.1 (which came out in 2010!) for the iPhone 3GS, even though the most recent firmware is iOS 6.1.3! Thus, downgrading an iPhone 3GS from iOS 6.1.3 to 4.1 is perfectly possible (and can be done through iTunes)! There is NO reason Apple couldn't do the same for iOS 7 to iOS 6 for iPhone 4, 4S and 5. Oh, maybe there is: they want to limit customer choice and prevent jailbreaking. Why do people accept Apple's lies? Apple could enable iOS downgrades with the flip of a switch (it's literally THAT simple). Go and read some stuff about SHSH blobs and Aptickets, Apple CAN make downgrades possible. PLEASE, don't start whining about how YOU don't need or want downgrades to be possible: it wouldn't hurt you in ANY way if downgrades were possible. If you're worried about activation lock, there are more ways to circumvent it apart from jailbreaking.

Well said, but wasted words. There's no reasoning with people who have emotional attachments to a corporation.