The Scam that is College Textbooks

[Tomorrow]

I graduated high school with a great foundation in algebra and just starting calculus. I had a foundation in literature, history, chemistry, biology, and even business classes that helped to manage personal expenses. College should not be 4 more years of the same. A 4 year degree could be easily tuned down to 2 years if you remove the absolutely worthless electives. When going for a tech degree, do you really need world religions, adolescent development, and 18th century world history? No you don't.

I majored in mechanical engineering as an undergraduate, and with the exception of chemistry and history (one semester of each), I didn't take ANY of those classes.

As for the "absolutely worthless electives" I took, I had a great, but short, list of classes from which to choose. I would not get credit for any that weren't on that list.

I was allowed to take four electives - yes, only four - and I chose linear algebra, astrophysics, history of science, and quantum mechanics. They were all great courses and I'm glad I took them, and I could hardly think of them as "worthless."

I don't know what your post secondary education entailed, but posts like yours make me think you don't know the first damn thing about it. Your two years of "worthless electives" ended up being less than a semester's worth of rigorous work in my program. So please, stop trying to insult those of us who actually value our educations and quit talking out of your backside.

 

[luvmymbpr]

I majored in mechanical engineering as an undergraduate, and with the exception of chemistry and history (one semester of each), I didn't take ANY of those classes.

As for the "absolutely worthless electives" I took, I had a great, but short, list of classes from which to choose. I would not get credit for any that weren't on that list.

I was allowed to take four electives - yes, only four - and I chose linear algebra, astrophysics, history of science, and quantum mechanics. They were all great courses and I'm glad I took them, and I could hardly think of them as "worthless."

I don't know what your post secondary education entailed, but posts like yours make me think you don't know the first damn thing about it. Your two years of "worthless electives" ended up being less than a semester's worth of rigorous work in my program. So please, stop trying to insult those of us who actually value our educations and quit talking out of your backside.

I really don't know why you feel your arrogant attitude is justified here, but your experience is certainly not the norm. Most people obtaining a 4 year degree take exponentially more electives than just 4. You take several every year. Most are not related to your major.

 

[Tomorrow]

Most people obtaining a 4 year degree take exponentially more electives than just 4. You take several every year. Most are not related to your major.

Please explain to me how this is possible.

A typical 4-year degree includes probably 11-12 classes a year. Your claim is that, for most people, electives make up "several every year." How in the world does that leave any room for classes in your field of study?

I think you're either speaking in hyperbole, or you simply don't know what you're talking about - either way, you're not making a very compelling argument.

 

[luvmymbpr]

Please explain to me how this is possible.

A typical 4-year degree includes probably 11-12 classes a year. Your claim is that, for most people, electives make up "several every year." How in the world does that leave any room for classes in your field of study?

I think you're either speaking in hyperbole, or you simply don't know what you're talking about - either way, you're not making a very compelling argument.

My university required a minimum of 125 credits to graduate with a bachelor of science degree. Assuming a standard 3 credit class 3x a week, that's a little better than 5 classes a semester. Part of that degree is a requirement for a MINIMUM of 24 credits in electives. That's 1 every semester, if it's 3 credits. I found that many elective classes were only 2x a week or 2 credits, so I had to take more.

In addition, your core requirements were for a 3rd level proficiency in a foreign language and proficiency in multiple levels of math classes (algebra and calc). So if you were like me, where you were able to skip level 1 and 2 foreign language and just take 3rd year and go right to calc classes and skip all algebra, you STILL need those 125 credits to graduate. Where do you get them? Well, you can waste your time in math and language classes where you already know the material, or you can take more electives to meet the minimum 125 credit requirement to graduate.

So yes, you take several elective classes a year. It's quite the norm in many universities. If they removed all the fluff and minimum credit requirements, someone prepared out of high school in many math, science, and language classes should be able to obtain their B.S. in as little as 2 years.

 

[smallcoffee]

Please explain to me how this is possible.

A typical 4-year degree includes probably 11-12 classes a year. Your claim is that, for most people, electives make up "several every year." How in the world does that leave any room for classes in your field of study?

I think you're either speaking in hyperbole, or you simply don't know what you're talking about - either way, you're not making a very compelling argument.

Yeah, idk about exponential but you definitely have to take a lot of elective courses.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Not disagreeing, but you don't need to spend $3,000 per class and waste 15 weeks when a book can get you there. Self-studying calc or medical topics is hard, and a class is invaluable. However, history does not require a class.

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Yeah I think we are on the same side of this debate. I have such negative feelings towards the current US college machine.

If by 'history does not need a class' you seem to be of the belief that the study of history merely requires that you glance at a text book, then, you may well be right.

However, the 'study' of history is about more than that. Taught properly, students are encouraged to interrogate sources and question perspectives.

Above all, they are taught how to plan, prepare and write essays. Left to their own devices, most will students, when confronted with an essay, will start out by attempting to throw everything they know about the subject at the page (or at me) in the hope that some of it will stick.

But that is not what proper essay writing teaches you. Essay writing should help you learn a little about the invaluable skill of critical analysis; about how to research and locate texts and sources; about how to marshall material and arguments in order to make a case; about how to intelligently interrogate data, material, sources, in order to support or refute the title you have been asked to deal with as an essay topic.

My experience is that this is where the classroom - or seminar room - comes into its own. Most of us, in order to master this skill, need a guiding hand.

And the skills of critical analysis - which are better learned when intelligently taught in history over all other subjects - are ones which can be transferred to any management position anywhere.

Returning to an earlier post: I find it hard to credit that anyone - given much of what is happening worldwide these days - would not find an elective course in 'world religions' of significant benefit. This strikes me as exactly the sort of thing that many Governments, armies, companies, and international bodies could usefully learn a little more about.

 

[Tomorrow]

My university required a minimum of 125 credits to graduate with a bachelor of science degree. Assuming a standard 3 credit class 3x a week, that's a little better than 5 classes a semester. Part of that degree is a requirement for a MINIMUM of 24 credits in electives. That's 1 every semester, if it's 3 credits. I found that many elective classes were only 2x a week or 2 credits, so I had to take more.

Okay, I'm just a dumb engineer, but I think I can do the math on this one without a calculator.

"A little better than 5 classes a semester" - let's say 11 a year, shall we? By your standard, that's 33 credits a year or 132 over the course of four years - enough to graduate.

Also by your standard, you need a MINIMUM of 24 credits in electives. I suspect this depends on the degree you pursue, and I also suspect that you don't actually have free reign to pick any class from the catalog and get credit toward your program. (Credit on your transcript, maybe - credit toward your degree, maybe/maybe not.)

You said yourself, one class a semester - two a year out of 11. Hardly enough to remove 2 years from the program.

But while we're doing this, let's look at extremes, shall we? Let's suppose your electives are all ONE hour classes, and that you have to take 24 of them. It's STILL not two years' worth of work - by your own numbers, it's still less than ONE year of work.

If you're that worried about wasting your time in college with electives, then either pick a different program or choose meatier electives - that's what "elective" means, after all.

In addition, your core requirements were for a 3rd level proficiency in a foreign language and proficiency in multiple levels of math classes (algebra and calc). So if you were like me, where you were able to skip level 1 and 2 foreign language and just take 3rd year and go right to calc classes and skip all algebra, you STILL need those 125 credits to graduate. Where do you get them? Well, you can waste your time in math and language classes where you already know the material, or you can take more electives to meet the minimum 125 credit requirement to graduate.

I needed 134 to graduate, not including foreign language (I had three years in high school). I didn't take any remedial classes. The "electives" I had to choose from were very limited - some of my options included things like technical writing, dynamic mechanics, etc., classes that were far from "fluff," as you characterize it.

Yeah, idk about exponential but you definitely have to take a lot of elective courses.

Eight? Okay.

 

[luvmymbpr]

Okay, I'm just a dumb engineer, but I think I can do the math on this one without a calculator.

"A little better than 5 classes a semester" - let's say 11 a year, shall we? By your standard, that's 33 credits a year or 132 over the course of four years - enough to graduate.

Also by your standard, you need a MINIMUM of 24 credits in electives. I suspect this depends on the degree you pursue, and I also suspect that you don't actually have free reign to pick any class from the catalog and get credit toward your program. (Credit on your transcript, maybe - credit toward your degree, maybe/maybe not.)

You said yourself, one class a semester - two a year out of 11. Hardly enough to remove 2 years from the program.

But while we're doing this, let's look at extremes, shall we? Let's suppose your electives are all ONE hour classes, and that you have to take 24 of them. It's STILL not two years' worth of work - by your own numbers, it's still less than ONE year of work.

If you're that worried about wasting your time in college with electives, then either pick a different program or choose meatier electives - that's what "elective" means, after all.



I needed 134 to graduate, not including foreign language (I had three years in high school). I didn't take any remedial classes. The "electives" I had to choose from were very limited - some of my options included things like technical writing, dynamic mechanics, etc., classes that were far from "fluff," as you characterize it.



Eight? Okay.

You're just cherry picking information and completely ignoring what I said about making up credit requirements when you do not require certain math or language classes. 8 is the minimum (by the way already twice what you experienced) and many people need more since they test out of classes.

In addition, you could easily get that degree in closer to two years since many people are capable of taking 18 or more credits for the first few semesters. I had plenty of 18+ credit semesters while working jobs.

I'm pretty sure you want to argue this just for the sake of arguing, or you invested $120k in your degree and are so set on defending it. Either way, That's all fine. To each their own. Have a good one.

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If by 'history does not need a class' you seem to be of the belief that the study of history merely requires that you glance at a text book, then, you may well be right.

However, the 'study' of history is about more than that. Taught properly, students are encouraged to interrogate sources and question perspectives.

Regarding your first paragraph, I merely meant the quality of your average history course in college (which for most of us is an elective) can be obtained by reading the material yourself. They usually only cover "what happened and when it happened."

Regarding your second paragraph, I agree.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

When I was a teacher of history at university, I used to say to my students that while the study of history is extremely interesting in itself - as it often offers explanations why and how we arrived where we are - and this is very interesting stuff to know, - the skills and tools learnt while learning how to study history - how to use data and materials and sources to make an argument or build a case - can be transferred to any position where analytical skills are required.

So, while history does give one a respect for facts (the 'what', 'who', 'where', 'when' of the particular question) it also teaches how to set about trying to answer the 'why' and 'how' questions, which are much more challenging, as that is where debate and difference will lie.

While I am an historian by profession (and by inclination, and interest - history is still a passion, and I loved teaching it) the skills I learnt then have proven invaluable in much of my subsequent work.

 

[Tomorrow]

You're just cherry picking information and completely ignoring what I said about making up credit requirements when you do not require certain math or language classes.

Cherry picking? Your entire argument is that half the program is made up of electives, and I challenged you on that.

By the way, I tested out of classes as well - I got credit for them. I didn't have to take electives to make up for them. It worked the same way when I was teaching - test out of a class, get credit for it.

I'm pretty sure you want to argue this just for the sake of arguing, or you invested $120k in your degree and are so set on defending it.

I felt no need to defend my education until you tried to trash it with your misinformed generalizations.

 

[talmy]

The college bookstore gets it cut, of course, but IMHO it's the publishers that make out like bandits. Authors get next to nothing for the work done.

As an instructor for 25 years (retiring this one) I've tried to do my part to keep costs down. I've done three things I'll point out here:

• I wrote a textbook and put it on a CD. I gave them to my students for free. I started doing this in 1999, well before ebooks started to take off. In a few years I started to sell it publicly as well.
• Some students want printed textbooks so I made it available as a printed text from a Print On Demand publisher (originally Lulu, now CreateSpace). My students can buy at cost, which has actually gone down over the years. My students pay $8. Students buying retail (Amazon.com) or through their bookstores pay in the range of $30 to $40. Of which I pocket about $12. You do the math. Before I wrote the book, the one we used was $120.
• Professors can choose the textbooks they use and can if they wish choose wisely. In another course I teach I went from a $150 textbook that had been used in various editions for years to a $40 from MIT Press. It is more difficult than the old one but is much more thorough.

 

[luvmymbpr]

The college bookstore gets it cut, of course, but IMHO it's the publishers that make out like bandits. Authors get next to nothing for the work done.

As an instructor for 25 years (retiring this one) I've tried to do my part to keep costs down. I've done three things I'll point out here:

• I wrote a textbook and put it on a CD. I gave them to my students for free. I started doing this in 1999, well before ebooks started to take off. In a few years I started to sell it publicly as well.
• Some students want printed textbooks so I made it available as a printed text from a Print On Demand publisher (originally Lulu, now CreateSpace). My students can buy at cost, which has actually gone down over the years. My students pay $8. Students buying retail (Amazon.com) or through their bookstores pay in the range of $30 to $40. Of which I pocket about $12. You do the math. Before I wrote the book, the one we used was $120.
• Professors can choose the textbooks they use and can if they wish choose wisely. In another course I teach I went from a $150 textbook that had been used in various editions for years to a $40 from MIT Press. It is more difficult than the old one but is much more thorough.

I had two professors that said on day 1 to return the book. They are forced to choose a book, but for their class you didn't require it.

Nothing but total respect for them. It's a shame they couldn't mass email the class 2 weeks before. Quite a few people would buy it and shred the plastic before they got the good (now bad) news.

 

[luvmymbpr]

Cherry picking? Your entire argument is that half the program is made up of electives, and I challenged you on that.

You're arguing semantics at this point. Your original argument was that you took only 4 electives. I showed you multiple times how that is certainly not the normal experience for most people. By minimum requirements, my school (largest university in my state) requires double what you took. You then rolled your eyes at "just 8." In order to graduate, you need even more than 8 to to meet the total minimum credits for the degree.

By the way, I tested out of classes as well - I got credit for them. I didn't have to take electives to make up for them. It worked the same way when I was teaching - test out of a class, get credit for it.

You tested out of classes and got credit for them? I'm sure you paid for those credits, right? If you did, add that to the list of things I find totally ridiculous with college. If you were gifted free credits, then I'm shocked.

I felt no need to defend my education until you tried to trash it with your misinformed generalizations.

This is a neutral discussion about college. I'm really not sure why you continue to act so defensive and carry such a condescending and arrogant tone. No one is attacking you personally. We're just discussing things largely from our own personal experiences or those of our friends and colleagues.

 

[talmy]

I had two professors that said on day 1 to return the book. They are forced to choose a book, but for their class you didn't require it.

Nothing but total respect for them. It's a shame they couldn't mass email the class 2 weeks before. Quite a few people would buy it and shred the plastic before they got the good (now bad) news.

Seems like a bad situation for them. "No book" is an acceptable choice here, and I also mass email the class in advance telling them what they need to prepare. Sounds like they don't get access to the class roster prior to the start of term.

 

[aaronvan]

I just learned that the author of my calculus textbook died last month:

http://www.musicaltoronto.org/2014/...l-house-founder-james-stewart-dies-at-age-73/

I shall study all the harder in his memory.

 

[dukebound85]

I really don't know why you feel your arrogant attitude is justified here, but your experience is certainly not the norm. Most people obtaining a 4 year degree take exponentially more electives than just 4. You take several every year. Most are not related to your major.

I didn't and I did engineering as well. In fact, all my electives were "technical electives" such as linear algebra, comp sci classes, grad engineering classes etc. I did do 5 years so I could take a less intense senior year.

Engineering imo does not have "fluff" classes, even as electives and certainly not 2 years worth from my experience.

At any rate, it is next to impossible to get an engineering degree in 2 years as classes require pre-reqs and you need 4 years just to get through the program at min

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You tested out of classes and got credit for them? I'm sure you paid for those credits, right? If you did, add that to the list of things I find totally ridiculous with college. If you were gifted free credits, then I'm shocked.

It was for me in part. My hs didn't offer calc 3 or diff equations. I took them at Colorado State my senior year of HS for free (as in my hs paid the bill). It was quite awesome

AP credits were essentially free as it was a 60 dollar test to get the credit hrs. Compare that to tuition rates and it is very cheap

I am just glad I am not in school anymore and have to deal with books or tuition.

 

[luvmymbpr]

I didn't and I did engineering as well. In fact, all my electives were "technical electives" such as linear algebra, comp sci classes, grad engineering classes etc. I did do 5 years so I could take a less intense senior year.

Engineering imo does not have "fluff" classes, even as electives and certainly not 2 years worth from my experience.

At any rate, it is next to impossible to get an engineering degree in 2 years as classes require pre-reqs and you need 4 years just to get through the program at min

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It was for me in part. My hs didn't offer calc 3 or diff equations. I took them at Colorado State my senior year of HS for free (as in my hs paid the bill). It was quite awesome

AP credits were essentially free as it was a 60 dollar test to get the credit hrs. Compare that to tuition rates and it is very cheap

I am just glad I am not in school anymore and have to deal with books or tuition.

I won't argue that some majors, like engineering, need all 4 years or more. I believe the majority do not. Many 4 year degree programs should be shaped to 2 year programs that focus only only core requirements.

I also agree about not having to deal with tuition or books anymore. The worst part was bleeding all that money and barely having enough time to work and earn money.

 

[colourfastt]

I won't argue that some majors, like engineering, need all 4 years or more. I believe the majority do not. Many 4 year degree programs should be shaped to 2 year programs that focus only only core requirements.

I also agree about not having to deal with tuition or books anymore. The worst part was bleeding all that money and barely having enough time to work and earn money.

If you're looking for that sort of focused education then I'd suggest a technical school rather than a college/university.

 

[samiwas]

A typical 4-year degree includes probably 11-12 classes a year. Your claim is that, for most people, electives make up "several every year." How in the world does that leave any room for classes in your field of study?

So you're an engineer and can do the math, but can't figure out how taking 2-4 electives out of 11-12 classes a year leaves any room for classes in your field of study? Ooooookkkaaayyyy. Can you list some projects you've engineered? I might not want to stand near them.

 

[luvmymbpr]

If you're looking for that sort of focused education then I'd suggest a technical school rather than a college/university.

I agree, but future employers don't see it that way. Every place I've worked holds any 4yr degree over a trade school. People without a 4yr degree have a much harder time moving up. It's ridiculous, and I really wish the U.S. would end its love affair with universities. The problem is that the people doing the hiring spent their time and money at a college, so they want the same.

Now, it's certainly possible for people without a 4yr degree to make great money and achieve high positions. However, the odds are really against them.

 

[Tomorrow]

So you're an engineer and can do the math, but can't figure out how taking 2-4 electives out of 11-12 classes a year leaves any room for classes in your field of study? Ooooookkkaaayyyy. Can you list some projects you've engineered? I might not want to stand near them.

I think you may have misunderstood my posts.

luvmymbpr has gone on record as saying that a 4-year degree could be whittled down to 2 years if you remove all the worthless electives from the program. I countered by presenting that, according to his claims, a typical year of 11 classes or so includes, at most, 2 or 3 electives, which would not allow the program to be reduced to 2 years, even if all of the electives were removed.

What I actually pointed out is that my own program allowed for only four electives for the entire program, and those were what the program called "technical electives" and actually added to the enrichment of my career as an engineer - they could hardly be considered worthless, and there were not nearly enough of them to reduce my overall workload to 2 years if they were removed.

 

[luvmymbpr]

I think you may have misunderstood my posts.

luvmymbpr has gone on record as saying that a 4-year degree could be whittled down to 2 years if you remove all the worthless electives from the program. I countered by presenting that, according to his claims, a typical year of 11 classes or so includes, at most, 2 or 3 electives, which would not allow the program to be reduced to 2 years, even if all of the electives were removed.

What I actually pointed out is that my own program allowed for only four electives for the entire program, and those were what the program called "technical electives" and actually added to the enrichment of my career as an engineer - they could hardly be considered worthless, and there were not nearly enough of them to reduce my overall workload to 2 years if they were removed.

I still stand by my claims. The only correction I would make is changing all to most. There are definitely exceptions. However, most degrees are an easy 2 year run if you remove the garbage.

 

[natsinicky]

For books that were super expensive, I always emailed the prof, and asked if the previous edition would be permissible. Most companies release new books every year without too many changes, just to make people spend more money. More often that not, the prof would say the previous edition was more than fine. Just a few different page numbers. And you can always sell them on amazon at the end of the semester.

 

[colourfastt]

I still stand by my claims. The only correction I would make is changing all to most. There are definitely exceptions. However, most degrees are an easy 2 year run if you remove the garbage.

The so-called "garbage" is the under-pinning of the liberal arts education which is the basis of a university degree. If you are looking for an institution that teaches ONLY the necessary classes for a technical education then I suggest a trade school.

 

[skippymac]

The advantages of being an EE student is that some of my classmates have mysterious ways of finding free copies of books online. Of course I know nothing about this :roll eyes:

Seriously though, I'm halfway through my second year and I haven't touched a text book since I started. I have looked up a couple of e-journals and e-books for reports in our Uni library system, but apart from that everything is covered by lecturers' notes and the all powerful internet.

I honestly don't see any point in my buying of a number of £80+ books, when I can find MUCH better teaching material online for free. I imagine this will change as I get more specialised, but I will probably be looking at journals not educational text books...