These Are the Countries Where You Can Install Apps Outside of the iOS App Store

[jennyp]

We’re still in the orbit of the EU, always will be, now we’re locked out of the decision making process and without representation in the governmental bodies of the union.

Except you never had the ability to remove democratically those in the commission who have power over your day-to-day life. I never saw their names on a ballot paper. Only broad tribal-politics reps towing some party line. Even worse than the diluted version of regular gov democracy. The "Economic" Union swiftly turned into a political one tbh. I can't easily see any US citizen wanting some other country to tell it what to do without even a voting say-so. Giant bureaucracy without representation can appear to give rights (though often without the creative know-how), but it's their version, and, it can take them away too. Depends on your point of view. But when you're just told what to do without a say, you have less choice, not more. Better to be in orbit. Give me back my lightning cable 😬

 

[AppliedMicro]

I'm so happy Norway isn't included!

You're rejoicing too soon.

I thought we would be included because of the EEC-agreement.

You will be rather soon: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32022R1925

I believe you should be able to track the status of adoption in Norway here - which shouldn't take too long, given how the EFTA (non-EU but EEA member) states have voiced their unreserved support of the legislation and ensuring "legal homogeneity throughout the EEA".

 

[dippyshere]

If someone sets up an AppStore that distributes a rogue app that the user allows access to contacts etc. and that app harvests contacts and tries to distribute itself (malware).

Can Apple unsign that app if it’s not on their App Store? Can they stop other users who received this email from installing the app?

Will I have to run a third party virus scanner to alert me of bad software just like on my pc?

When I restore my phone will all my software be restored? Even 3rd party App Store apps?

Will third party App Store apps have access to hidden api’s without Apple being able to revoke them?

The iPhone has the most valuable users in the world with all their personal data on their devices. I fear this change will get every hacker on earth focused on this device now. It’s going to get interesting in the EU. At least they will be guinea pigs for this model.

Yes they can. Apple has the ability to block installation or launch of any “side loaded” app or marketplace at any time. Apple requires that every app still be notarised and reviewed to prevent something like this from happening. Anyone, bad actor or not, wanting to open an app marketplace and distribute apps needs very deep pockets. As it stands right now, you may never even see an app marketplace outside of the big ones like Epic.

 

[CoreForce]

No it's not, it's from the Social Democratic Group, which is the second largest group in the Swiss Parliament.

There is no Social Democratic Group in the Swiss parliament. It is the Social Democratic Party, officially abbreviated as SP. They are split into regional branches, the Tessin branch for the Italian speaking region of Switzerland.
The Tessin SP, where this motion is sourced from, is notoriously known as very pro EU, which is why nobody else takes them seriously.
Therefore, the relevance of this motion, to adopt into the EU law for Apple Store policy, has to be seen. It is far from being decided on.

 

[H2SO4]

I live in Northern Ireland. Part of UK and supposed to be in EU single market. Also I am both Irish and British citizen by birth (born on island of Ireland before 2005 so automatically Irish with full citizenship rights including full EU citizenship). I have UK and Irish (also EU by definition) passports with full unrestricted travel and residence in EU and also in UK. I wonder how Apple ID will define me and others like me? If I am denied access to alternative app stores I wonder is this in breach of EU guidance as this is supposed to apply to all EU citizens. For me it is arbitrary as I actually value the more controlled, closed and monitored AppStore, payment and others but I am thinking hypothetically or for others.

You seem to be in the ideal position.

 

[bsolar]

There is no Social Democratic Group in the Swiss parliament. It is the Social Democratic Party, officially abbreviated as SP. They are split into regional branches, the Tessin branch for the Italian speaking region of Switzerland.
The Tessin SP, where this motion is sourced from, is notoriously known as very pro EU, which is why nobody else takes them seriously.
Therefore, the relevance of this motion, to adopt into the EU law for Apple Store policy, has to be seen. It is far from being decided on.

The official Parliament page I referenced lists as "motioner" the Sozialdemokratische Fraktion/Groupe socialiste/Gruppo socialista. Wikipedia translates said group to "Social Democratic Group", I assume an unofficial translation as English is not an official language in Switzerland, but I think an appropriate one.

From the Wikipedia article:

The Social Democratic Group (German: Sozialdemokratische fraktion, French: Groupe socialiste, Italian: Gruppo socialista, abbreviated S) is the second largest parliamentary group in the Swiss Federal Assembly. It is formed by the Social Democratic Party of Switzerland.

The "group" being the "second largest" is confirmed in this official page on the Swiss Parliament site:

Fraktion		Präsident/in	Zusammensetzung / Partei	Total	NR	SR
Fraktion der Schweizerischen Volkspartei	V	Thomas Aeschi	68 SVP, 1 Lega, 2 EDU, 3 MCG	74	67	7
Sozialdemokratische Fraktion	S	Samuel Bendahan Samira Marti	50 SP	50	41	9
Die Mitte-Fraktion. Die Mitte. EVP.	M-E	Philipp Matthias Bregy	44 Die Mitte, 2 EVP	46	31	15
FDP-Liberale Fraktion	RL	Cottier Damien	39 FDP.Die Liberalen	39	28	11
Grüne Fraktion	G	Aline Trede	26 GPS	26	23	3
Grünliberale Fraktion	GL	Corina Gredig	11 GLP	11	10	1

From the same page, in German:

Die Bundesversammlung ist politisch in Fraktionen und nicht in Parteien gegliedert. Die Fraktionen umfassen Angehörige der gleichen Partei oder gleichgesinnter Parteien. Eine Fraktion ist also nicht immer mit einer Partei identisch.

Google Translate:

The Federal Assembly is politically divided into factions and not into parties. The factions include members of the same party or like-minded parties. A faction is not always the same as a party.

Said that, I agree that it's far from decided that the motion represent an actual commitment or that the Swiss Parliament will reach a consensus to support implementing the DMA. My understanding is that Switzerland can be quite conservative in dealing with economic issues and it would not surprise me for them to "wait and see" for a good while.

 

[Athonline]

Except you never had the ability to remove democratically those in the commission who have power over your day-to-day life. I never saw their names on a ballot paper. Only broad tribal-politics reps towing some party line. Even worse than the diluted version of regular gov democracy. The "Economic" Union swiftly turned into a political one tbh. I can't easily see any US citizen wanting some other country to tell it what to do without even a voting say-so. Giant bureaucracy without representation can appear to give rights (though often without the creative know-how), but it's their version, and, it can take them away too. Depends on your point of view. But when you're just told what to do without a say, you have less choice, not more. Better to be in orbit. Give me back my lightning cable 😬

It is the same way you don’t see on a ballot paper the names of permanent undersecretaries at the various ministries. However, their function is the same: propose policies given an agenda set by the elected government. In case of the EU, the EC can initiate policy based on the agenda of the EC President or as a response to the Parliament. The EC President is elected by the Parliament after nomination by the Council with their agenda made public beforehand. The EC’s Cabinet is again elected by the Council. In other words, elected politicians have a say throughout the process. At all stages of policy making, countries can veto and influence the policy.

Oh and yes, the EC postings work in terms, unlike undersecretaries that they need a golden handshake to be removed.

 

[H2SO4]

It is the same way you don’t see on a ballot paper the names of permanent undersecretaries at the various ministries. However, their function is the same: propose policies given an agenda set by the elected government. In case of the EU, the EC can initiate policy based on the agenda of the EC President or as a response to the Parliament. The EC President is elected by the Parliament after nomination by the Council with their agenda made public beforehand. The EC’s Cabinet is again elected by the Council. In other words, elected politicians have a say throughout the process. At all stages of policy making, countries can veto and influence the policy.

Oh and yes, the EC postings work in terms, unlike undersecretaries that they need a golden handshake to be removed.

That old trope about the citizens not electing anybody in the EU council is so old and worn out. I can't believe people still use it.

 

[bsolar]

It is the same way you don’t see on a ballot paper the names of permanent undersecretaries at the various ministries. However, their function is the same: propose policies given an agenda set by the elected government. In case of the EU, the EC can initiate policy based on the agenda of the EC President or as a response to the Parliament. The EC President is elected by the Parliament after nomination by the Council with their agenda made public beforehand. The EC’s Cabinet is again elected by the Council. In other words, elected politicians have a say throughout the process. At all stages of policy making, countries can veto and influence the policy.

It's ridiculous that people still don't understand how representative democracy works when it's the form of democracy used basically everywhere in the world, including their own country if they happen to live in a democratic one.

As example, US citizens don't directly elect the US President either: they actually vote to instruct their state-appointed Electors in the Electoral College, but it's ultimately the Electoral College which elects the president.

That's why some US Presidents have won the election although they lost the popular vote, i.e. the majority of US citizens actually voted for the losing candidate.

 

[threesixty360]

The even more crazy EU demand is, "Don't sell into our market - stick to the US".

I think this is going to be the likelihood here for the EU. Already apps like threads launched 6 months later. I just don’t know why anyone would

Yes they can. Apple has the ability to block installation or launch of any “side loaded” app or marketplace at any time. Apple requires that every app still be notarised and reviewed to prevent something like this from happening. Anyone, bad actor or not, wanting to open an app marketplace and distribute apps needs very deep pockets. As it stands right now, you may never even see an app marketplace outside of the big ones like Epic.

yeah. Reading grubers summary of the whole thing I think you’d be pretty bonkers to outside the store unless your primary objective is to distribute things Apple would never agree to, ever.

I suppose I’m not familiar with the android store/s and how they’ve turned out. But it feels like what Apple have provided here is not full unfettered access to a users device at all. I suppose that’s not in line with the spirit of the eu law. Your binary still goes through Apple and Apple still charge you for using their api’s / dev tools somehow.

Also, they say once you opt out you can’t EVER go back to apples AppStore. You have to be a pretty bold company to even try to this side loading route. What if it doesn’t work? Your stuck forever.

I just can’t see many going for this.

 

[Athonline]

That old trope about the citizens not electing anybody in the EU council is so old and worn out. I can't believe people still use it.

The same reason most Brexit misinformation worked: it is much easier to say "they are unelected" than try and explain how institutions actually work and democracy does not mean that you vote every single person.

It's ridiculous that people still don't understand how representative democracy works when it's the form of democracy used basically everywhere in the world, including their own country if they happen to live in a democratic one.

As example, US citizens don't directly elect the US President either: they actually vote to instruct their state-appointed Electors in the Electoral College, but it's ultimately the Electoral College which elects the president.

That's why some US Presidents have won the election although they lost the popular vote, i.e. the majority of US citizens actually voted for the losing candidate.

Yep. The big reason of having representative democracy instead of direct democracy is because you want to offload the decision making to some people, who in theory share on a high level your own values and group identity. Otherwise, it would be infeasible to held elections for every decision-making position and for countries to function at all if all decisions had to be taken by citizen vote.

Actually, the US is also a good case of a country where, more so than the UK and EU, key government positions change with each administration and are 'unelected’ by following Brexiter’s logic. If I recall right, there are over 1,000 positions across the different agencies and departments that change whenever the president changes. Those are positions without any Senate confirmation.

When I did some training in the British government for helping academics understand how to do policymaking, I recall being given a comparison between the British and US systems. The Brits were so proud that their permanent undersecretary system ensures ‘consistency’ compared to the US. Right after, they imminently started stretching to us that permanent undersecretaries do not actually do policy, but only propose it at the request of elected officials and their (unelected) political advisors. I kept thinking of the good-old “Yes, Minister” series and how Appleby was, essentially, an unelected minister.

The EU has many many flaws, but being ruled by 'unelected' officials is not one of them. At least, not more so than any other Western government.

 

[Beyo]

I am surprised seeing word "Unfortunately". Attitude of MacRumors owners is concerning. Instead of presenting the news, they create opinions this whole portal is more and more anti-Apple over the years. Perhaps this forum should be blocked in EU as it's only for bunch of nerds living in their bubble, while ordinary Apple user has no clue that such forum even exists.

 

[Beyo]

Determinist nonsense. There are other reasons to choose one platform over the other. It is choosing between two imperfect platforms.

Apple is not an evil monopoly, Apple holds too much market power. Some commenters have tasted a little too much of Tim's back-end.

Because we gave it voluntarily that marketing power because we wanted to use their devices. How hard for American is to understand this?

 

[Beyo]

There’s such a disconnected argument here for the walled garden approach. No one is forcing you outside the App Store. You can keep your phone the way you want and stay within the ‘garden’. Others simply want to be able to do more with their device.

Personally I’d love more competition in various stores and the option to step outside the garden. If they offer an app the App-Store won’t approve - sweet, I still have that option on my side.

What a silly argument, probably another US citizen - it's not about forcing me outside of AppStore but allowing others to going TO MY PHONE uninvited. Allowing 3rd party app stores on system level means security layer is weakened. It is like Apple doing jailbreak all iPhones for EU with 17.4. It's better to not upgrade.

And yes - Apple really should stop selling their devices in EU.

 

[Beyo]

Well, this is the whole point of the DMA, Apple has too much power. Sounds ridiculous that you consider all developers and programmers as evil, especially considering all the weird hoops Apple has been hopping around to ditch their social obligation of paying taxes.


Now I am surprised you even use the internet. Maybe we should go back to iOS 1.0, ditch the app store!

That would be a really good thing. No Twitter, no Facebook, no Instagram, and MacRumours not working - life so much better.

 

[Beyo]

I don't know what you get excited about. These applications will not be different. They will be the same, or much worse than they are now. You will not suddenly discover applications that aren’t now in the AppStore

Cydia begs to differ

 

[H2SO4]

I am surprised seeing word "Unfortunately". Attitude of MacRumors owners is concerning. Instead of presenting the news, they create opinions this whole portal is more and more anti-Apple over the years. Perhaps this forum should be blocked in EU as it's only for bunch of nerds living in their bubble, while ordinary Apple user has no clue that such forum even exists.

Unless I'm missing something I don't see the word, "unfortunately" in there?

These Are the Countries Where You Can Install Apps Outside of the iOS App Store

Apple today completely overhauled its app system, introducing changes that allow developers to distribute their apps through alternative app stores and use alternative methods of payment in iOS 17.4. Unfortunately, these changes are limited to countries that are in the European Union, and they...

forums.macrumors.com

Perhaps the EU should have a special MacRumors that you don't need to bother yourself with?

 

[Beyo]

It's ridiculous that people still don't understand how representative democracy works when it's the form of democracy used basically everywhere in the world, including their own country if they happen to live in a democratic one.

As example, US citizens don't directly elect the US President either: they actually vote to instruct their state-appointed Electors in the Electoral College, but it's ultimately the Electoral College which elects the president.

That's why some US Presidents have won the election although they lost the popular vote, i.e. the majority of US citizens actually voted for the losing candidate.

And you broke the constitution electing last time so Biden is illegally holding the office and you did nothing.

 

[H2SO4]

And you broke the constitution electing last time so Biden is illegally holding the office and you did nothing.

I'm not understanding your point here, perhaps you can clarify?

 

[dotnet]

Attitude of MacRumors owners is concerning. Instead of presenting the news, they create opinions this whole portal is more and more anti-Apple over the years.

Interesting. My main concern for some time has been Macrumors’ compulsion to sift through everything that comes out of Gurman’s arse. But it get yours, too.

 

[Athonline]

Unless I'm missing something I don't see the word, "unfortunately" in there?

These Are the Countries Where You Can Install Apps Outside of the iOS App Store

Apple today completely overhauled its app system, introducing changes that allow developers to distribute their apps through alternative app stores and use alternative methods of payment in iOS 17.4. Unfortunately, these changes are limited to countries that are in the European Union, and they...

forums.macrumors.com

Perhaps the EU should have a special MacRumors that you don't need to bother yourself with?

End of first paragraph "Unfortunately, these changes are limited to countries that are in the European Union, and they won't be implemented worldwide."

While I agree with the author that it is unfortunate that changes are not worldwide —though, I am happy to bet that they will become like most EU regulation ends up—I think that 'news' articles should be without personal opinions and instead have dedicated editorial pieces.

 

[krspkbl]

@Beyo @strongy why does freedom anger you?

And yes - Apple really should stop selling their devices in EU.

By that logic Apple should discontinue Mac products worldwide. Right? No?

 

[osxster]

I am surprised seeing word "Unfortunately". Attitude of MacRumors owners is concerning. Instead of presenting the news, they create opinions this whole portal is more and more anti-Apple over the years. Perhaps this forum should be blocked in EU as it's only for bunch of nerds living in their bubble, while ordinary Apple user has no clue that such forum even exists.

A forum is reaction to the article. It’s unfortunate because what makes iOS, iOS is its easy of installation of applications and the security behind that. The model Apple had worked on over a decade which protected the users is now ruined by a government decision because of greedy game companies who don’t want to pay the same commission to Apple that they pay retail or on any other stores on any other Platform. Now the consumers are going to lose from this as they will have to install random stores on their device which lack security and protection to install a game. Additionally if they use their iOS device for work, they will be restricted from installing these insecure stores. So a user may need to buy multiple iOS devices just to play a game. it will end up costing the consumer more money. The consumer gets no benefit from this decision.

 

[H2SO4]

End of first paragraph "Unfortunately, these changes are limited to countries that are in the European Union, and they won't be implemented worldwide."

While I agree with the author that it is unfortunate that changes are not worldwide —though, I am happy to bet that they will become like most EU regulation ends up—I think that 'news' articles should be without personal opinions and instead have dedicated editorial pieces.

I dunno how I missed that.

 

[AppliedMicro]

as they will have to install random stores on their device which lack security and protection to install a game

FUD.

So far, according to Apple's proposal, these alternative app marketplaces will be regulated by Apple.
The games they'd be selling would be reviewed and notarised by Apple, too.

And the risk of installing an alternative app marketplace isn't greater than for an individual game either.
Stores like Steam or Epic haven't been an issue on other, more open systems (Windows) either.