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I bought a refurbished 2.5 ghz Quad Core to replace my 2.6 dual core 17"

I'm going to be taking it to MCE, taking out the Superdrive, and put in over a terabyte of SSD, along with 16 gigs of RAM -

http://store.mcetech.com/Merchant2/...t_Code=OBSXGB-UNB&Category_Code=STORHDOPTIBAY

I'm a happy man (at least for the next 3 years, until I have to buy a 15incher)

Be careful as pre-2012 MacBook Pro 15 and 17 inch models are reported to have problems with 6Gb/s SSD's in the DVD slot: http://blog.macsales.com/10433-macbook-pro-2011-models-and-sata-3-0-6-0gbs-update-5272011 and http://blog.macsales.com/11895-2011-macbook-pro-sata-problems-resolved
 
The scary part is that Apple discontinues products that cater to the (obviously smaller) professional market suddenly and without warning. So while I greatly enjoy the so-called "iToy" (I disagree with that term), I understand the frustration of the professional market and agree that it may have an impact in how Apple is viewed.

They don't spend a lot of time going out catering to the professional environment. I would argue that Apple shuns the professional market with prohibitively high prices. Of course, for the most part this is fine, but it's a bit early for those in power at Apple to declare this a "Post PC Era" when you really can't do slide shows, spread sheets, documents nearly as well on an iDevice as on a Mac or even PC.

Maybe Apple just plans to drop entirely from the Pro market altogether, which would be a shame as they make damn good machines. Maybe I just don't make any sense. Moral of the story, it's not the Post-PC Era in the professional industry and I'm not sure Apple gets that.
 
Slow sales in the 17 was because people were waiting for a frickin update! A think 17 would sell very well because it would be slightly bigger than a 15 but the screen would look huge. They missed out not doing this. We all did.

And a "Pro" market? Don't know what that is. A movie or music monster corp? They'll cheap out on their own mother. But they don't do the work, people do and people in the industry buy a lot of their own machines because those big movie/music corps farm out a lot of that work. People just want a great machine because it saves time and hassle.

Honestly, the MacBooks are the best made laptops I've seen and while I am mainly a PC guy, a Macbook will be in my cart. I don't think I am alone in that. I would've bought a 17". Now I have to settle.
 
This sounds highly unlikely. Actually, your comment smells particularly odiferous.

Apparently, 17" MBP sales were trending toward 50K units per quarter before Monday's keynote. That's 548 per day. But the US is less than half of all sales, so let's say 250 per day throughout the US. (With that sales velocity, it's unsurprising that Apple killed off this product.)

That's 250 units from all sales channels, including bricks-and-mortar Apple Retail Stores, their online store at store.apple.com, and all 3rd party resellers (like Amazon).

B&M Apple stores account for maybe 30-40% of US sales, so we're talking maybe 80-90 units. That's really about one 17" MBP per location per day, except for larger market stores (like NYC, LA, SF, Chicago, a few others).

That sounds about right based on what I've seen as a customer at the Palo Alto Apple Store which presumably has a higher MBP sales rate due to its proximity to Silicon Valley.

Let's face it, Apple is drawing down inventory of refurbs for a discontinued product line. Not surprising that they don't have any local inventory. After all, it is claimed that Apple turns around their entire inventory in ten days.

They End-Of-Lifed the 17" MBP based on declining sales, so it really shouldn't affect many buyers.

Conciseness can be confused with bull by the odiferous-for-brains.

Let's state some facts (that seems to be the trend).
6 Retina display models on display.
In the crowded, odiferous Apple store, there was never more than 2 other people on them.
4 people didn't come in immediately pissed...
2 of the 4 were a couple - they questioned first "well, what happened to the 17""
Apple rep kindly reminded that nobody ever bought 17"
"It's just....what's the point of retina if it's small"
1 of the 4 did storm in pissed, played with it... said he was a graphic designer and ONLY bought 17".
The last one was mostly confused with a degree of pissed.

"oh, well based on statistics..."
4 people pissed does not = 4 lost sales.
You're applying MPAA logic here.

Market research has ruined entire industries (film).
If Apple did some damn market research here (instead of previous sales), I think they would have been surprised
THE ONLY PEOPLE WILLING TO DROP $4K ON A LAPTOP ARE PRO's AND ASPIRING AMATEURS. PHOTO, FILM, COLORISTS, GRAPHIC DESIGN, etc...
or rich stupid people.

Here's the thing. Most people who care about their work use external monitors (a smidge over 15").

And the $4,000 question... Why would you spend $4,000 on a laptop with the most brilliant screen ever made, if the screen is too small to do your work on?

I almost ordered the first day.
Glad I went and toyed with it.
It had less of a wow factor to me than the iPad 3.
I'd order a fat one w/o retina... but it still has the stupid cd drive.
Only 1 thunderbolt.
Also, if you play around with upgrades, you'll notice it's actually a worse deal than the retina model.
A 17" w/ 3 USB3s, and 2x thunderbolt.
4GB of ram.
Raid 0 third party SSDs.
16GB third party ram.
Expresscard adapter.
That's all I wanted.

The real reason 17" never sold.
The reason I own a 15" MBP.
At the time, the upgrade was nearly $800 more (with a few forced standard upgrades).
"Nobody" would buy a 17" retina now.
Because it would cost too much.
The same reason I'm sure most sales are the barebones $2k retina models.
The same reason 99.999% of people buy the 13" MBP.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Mass production pushes down cost.
So the retina in one size makes sense.
Killing the regular 17" was selfish.
And almost as shady as putting "NEW" on the Mac Pro.

Steve is dead.
Time to stop pissing in mouths and calling it brilliance.
But I'd open wide for a retina Thunderbolt display.
Even a quad core 13".

But the clock is ticking.
It's upgrade season.
Adobe is Mac OR PC.
 
I think what he is insinuating is that if they do a Retina version of the 17" MacBook Pro that the resolution would be 3840 x 2400 while the current Retina 15" MacBook Pro is 2880 x 1800.

Basically doubling 1920 x 1200 whilst the current Retina 15" doubles the originals 1440x900 resolution.

So what I'm trying to get at is some of us still want a notebook that has a larger display than the 15" with more real estate for apps. At the moment the current Retina 15" offers no extra space for apps compared to the original 15" it just increases the pixel density to have everything look sharper.

I suspect they will allow a 2880 x 1800 desktop in Mountain Lion. So you will probably have a month to wait for it. If not in Mountain Lion right out of the gate, then soon thereafter. The Pro Retina is going to sell like hot cakes and apps will be designed to meet its screen specifications before then end of the year.

That 15" screen looked pretty big when I checked out the Pros this afternoon. A 17" laptop wouldn't be my cup of tea for portability reasons.
 
Code in windows have nothing to do with inches. It's pixel count.

1920 horizontal pixels will display the same amount of code on a 15.4" screen or 17" screen.

A common misconception, rather surprising on a technical blog like Macrumors.

Well, yes. But Apple doesn't offer any laptops with a real 1920 pixel resolution anymore; your options are the old 17" or a Retina using scaling, and non-integer scaling doesn't look super to me.
 
Well, yes. But Apple doesn't offer any laptops with a real 1920 pixel resolution anymore; your options are the old 17" or a Retina using scaling, and non-integer scaling doesn't look super to me.

Except the way Apple implemented it in the retina MBP is to display the screen using the full 2880x1800 pixels. You're getting a 3840x2400 frame buffer downscaled to 2880x1800, not 1920x1200.

People so far have been saying it looks pretty darn good. I'm going to reserve judgment until I see it, but it seems Apple has a winner here. The MBPR is the new 17".

----------

I suspect they will allow a 2880 x 1800 desktop in Mountain Lion.

There hasn't been any indication of such. There are 3rd party apps that do enable this however.
 
You're not talking about what I'm talking about. I'm talking about relative UI sizes vs PPI in normal mode, not in HiDPI mode rendering formats.

effective 160 PPI for laptops (1920x1080 usable resolution at 13.3") is still readable while giving you the highest possible usable pixel count. Higher than that can result in UI elements/fonts to be too small, lower than that, you end up with Duplo block size UIs that waste screen inches.

For desktops, it's lower than that obviously, on the account the monitor sits farther away.

Apple is just now catching up to these usable pixel counts wit the MBPR 15.4" scaled mode 1920x1200 resolution at 147 PPI.
In other words, the problem is Apple's GUI. If it would be truly resolution independent, PPI could be whatever.
At least they could add more options for different sizes in scaling.
 
Hmm... Not very good deals. The new MacBook Pro Retina is cheaper when you consider the processing power, storage and memory you get for your dollars. I was tempted by the idea when I saw the head line since I'm in the market and had been considering a 17" but the MBPr is a better deal.

17" inch screen aren't that cheap.
 
Code in windows have nothing to do with inches. It's pixel count.

1920 horizontal pixels will display the same amount of code on a 15.4" screen or 17" screen.

A common misconception, rather surprising on a technical blog like Macrumors.

The guy is talking about there being no replacement for actual inches of screen real estate and that squinting just plain SUCKS and you just keep pointing out how great it is to squint at your tiny little screen. Well, good for you. Squint all day long, but don't talk down to people that don't agree with your love of squinting at tiny little screens (regardless of how many pixels they have, they're fracking tiny to look at).

Some people need better glasses. I'd argue that it's Bigger size on the 17" and that some people just don't want things bigger.


Glasses do not make things larger, dude. I know because I've worn them since 1st grade. Glasses that correct near-sightedness actually makes things SMALLER. I can see a HUGE difference between glasses and my contacts in that regard or just pulling my glasses off in front of my 93" home theater screen for that matter. Everything (at my prescription) looks about 20% smaller with my glasses on. So stronger glasses (as you appear to suggest) will only make things appear even smaller to the user.

There is simply no replacement for actual screen size. Anyone who watches a movie on a 13" HD display versus a 60" one versus a 100" one can tell you that without thinking twice. Unless you're going to sit there with your nose on the glass (which makes your eyes work harder since the muscles have to work harder to keep things close-up in focus than when focused at infinity (rest), it will not be remotely the same experience. So while a 15" Retina display is nice and has its place, it does not replace a 17" screen, let alone a 27" one regardless of its increased resolution when it comes to making things look larger while maintaining (not increasing) resolution. Increasing resolution will either makes things smaller (to fit more on the screen) or will have to increase the pixel count to maintain size (whereby you then lose the benefits of additional screen space).

Thus, you either still have to go smaller to get more things on the screen (whereby 15" doesn't help one iota compared to 17" or larger) OR you using that space to make edges smoother, but don't gain any additional space for more things on the screen relative to the size of things. So they may look prettier at the same size, but they are not helping you fit more things on the screen. Only an increase in size PLUS resolution will maintain overall size AND fit more things on the screen at the same time and a 15" screen will NEVER EVER do that. No amount of ignorant posting will ever change those FACTS. ;)

When my 15" MBP is docked, it's connected to a 27" display and while the resolution setting is slightly higher, most of the additional space to pixel ratio is used to make things larger so they're easy on the eyes and take up much more of my peripheral vision at a comfortable viewing distance. If the display was 2-3x its resolution and the MBP could deliver that resolution without slowing down the draw rates, I'd still have to choose between more real estate space with smaller objects or sharper images at the same size (and a likely loss in speed for things like gaming frame rates as a result which will likely always be the case).

The point is each individual will have to decide for themselves what's more important to them in the future, more usable space or sharper images and subsequently what size screen will best serve that function for them. You clearly don't care how tiny things are, so the new MBP 15" will serve you well. But don't make the mistake of thinking your needs are everyone's needs. :cool:

Personally, I think the old 17" MBP may very well work much better for my needs for a remote music workstation than the 15" would as things are tiny enough on the 15" I have now at current resolutions so I have zero desire to make them even smaller by using a higher resolution at the same size screen (i.e. I'm not looking at graphics, but waveforms, note notation and tables of data). I have to use the zoom tools quite a lot. A larger screen size would simply mean less need to zoom whereas more resolution wouldn't mean a darn thing at that size (if anything, it'd be mostly the same or even more zooming needed).

Sadly, the 17" MBP doesn't have USB3 or the latest CPUs, but it does have a plethora of expansion options the new 15" does not have on-board including dedicated Ethernet and FireWire ports (the latter of which my sound equipment uses as do my current backup drives), not to mention expansion ports and since it does have Thunderbolt, USB3 docks, etc. are always a future option. I can't think of ANY need/use for a "Retina" display. It appears to be EYE CANDY and nothing else on that size screen.

The MBPR is the new 17".

I'm sorry, but that is an IGNORANT thing to say because as I said above, the two have NOTHING to do with each other.
 
Well, yes. But Apple doesn't offer any laptops with a real 1920 pixel resolution anymore; your options are the old 17" or a Retina using scaling, and non-integer scaling doesn't look super to me.

I looked at it, in person, and I couldn't find any fault with it. This isn't just a 1920 x 1200 pixel image scaled up, I would be quite sure that text and standard UI elements are actually drawn scaled; that means they look perfect.


Actually, it's quite plausible that stores sold more 17" MBPs last week than they did in the previous 3 months.

However, that just means that everybody who really wanted a 17" and had been holding off buying in the hope of an update, dashed out last week to grab the remaining stock.

Its a blip, and says nothing about the long-term demand for this model. If it was selling well, Apple would have at least kept it on.

Apple can keep selling it as refurbished as long as they like. We'll see. If the 17" disappears in a few weeks then Apple is just selling of what remained. If it is still on the refurbished store in a years time, then there is still a dozen people at Foxconn building more of them :)
 
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So sad.

The pro line is something I invested in and needed very much, to produce my albums and do really well in my independent musical career for the past 18 years, still going strong but I have to say that apple has lost a little bit of my loyalty with releasing the 15" retina mbp and no hint at the possibility of a 17" updated mbp as if that consumer market doesn't matter anymore at all!

I don't even care for a retina 17"mbp, personally, I'll get the next gen retina ipad instead because it is a toy to me because ultimately to me, retina is the blue ray of the dvd player era. It isn't like its retina 3D !!!!!!! Common what a gimmick. I am getting the 15" retina mbp as a gift from a fan of my music so I am grateful and will make the best use of the machine to produce my new albums. I am still saving up to afford the current gen of 17" mbp at 2.5GHz i7 late 2011 model to replace my 2007 model !

I WAS so expecting that apple would move all the existing gen of macbook pros to reburb pricing to make way for a completely amazing line of all new pros 13 - 17inches, rather than teasing the easily amused consumers who buy anything with "new" attached to it (lame). This years updates should have just stuck to software updates and letting apps developers to prepare for more retina ready apps.

I can wait till next year to be totally impressed out of my mind like, than to anticipate so much for this passed update event (sad).
 
I think people here are missing the bigger picture, the 17" was introduced at a time where 20" flatscreens would easily run you $1000, and thats for the bottom end. Now you can get amazingly huge and accurate monitors for a fraction of that. The 17" only really makes sense for the very small sliver of pros who dont spend most of their time docked to a monitor and whom 15"(even at a high resolution) isnt enough on the road.

That is an exceedingly small % of overall notebook users, and yes it doesnt take a lot of engineering resources to keep the 17" going, but it does take a lot of operational resources to do so(you have to keep your retail channels stocked with both models and parts, keep training up etc)

Monitors are cheap, buy one.


Not much point in using a laptop if you are chained to a desk. There is a substantial population of journalists, graphic designers, and film producers who are working in the field/on site, for whom the docking monitor is an occassional situation, not a regular feature.

The DSLR camera revolution was partially instigated by the big agencies like Reuters who wanted still photographers to be able to double up on shooting video content, rather than send 2 shooters. These guys are just one example of who needs the screen real estate, running a source/record dual window edit.

My 17" serves as a footage ingest station/preliminary edit station on film shoots, same thing. I had to decide to upgrade my 2011 17" rather than go for this dot zero retina release. If I was only checking email, still photos, and writing in the field then coming back to a workstation it might be different.

----------

As a current user of a 5+ year old 17" MBP that I love but sorely needs replacing, I'm less tempted because of, in order:

  1. 2011 model is not able to run a 6Gb/s at full speed in the place of the DVD drive. (see http://blog.macsales.com/10433-macbook-pro-2011-models-and-sata-3-0-6-0gbs-update-5272011 ), whereas 2012's are (http://blog.macsales.com/14064-expand-the-2012-macbook-pros-with-an-owc-data-doubler)
  2. Performance gains of new chips over 2011 gen
  3. Lack of USB 3 built in (don't want to have to have use any dongle or card hanging off the side)


The cost/performance tradeoffs are up to every individual to make, but the performance gains of the chips are on the order of 8-12 percent improvement. Unless you are rendering video constantly, I doubt you would notice this much.

Same for the optical drive SSD. I doubt you would notice the 3g v 6g difference, unless you were trying to RAID 0 your machine....which is not the best choice for stabilty and battery performance

If you are working with large files/video content, you'd be better off using Thunderbolt storage rather than USB 3 or the internal drive anyway.

I write this as I've been thinking about these very issues, I've got a 2011 17" and I'm going with a single internal 6G SSD, a large capacity spinning drive in the optibay for personal data, and external thunderbolt raid for media files (a.k.a. work).

You could upgrade to a sub-2000 dollar 17", put 16G and a 6G ssd in it for under 500 dollars more total, and for less than the retina display have a smoking machine. Then look at thunderbolt storage as this year the options should increase (and decrease in price)
 
At least you can upgrade a refurb.

I was shocked that the new Retina macbooks are all soldered and cannot be upgraded in any way. If you do not buy what you need up front, you are out of luck. I guess they figure customers will throw away their macs sooner and show up at the store in short order.
 
Not much point in using a laptop if you are chained to a desk. There is a substantial population of journalists, graphic designers, and film producers who are working in the field/on site, for whom the docking monitor is an occassional situation, not a regular feature.

The DSLR camera revolution was partially instigated by the big agencies like Reuters who wanted still photographers to be able to double up on shooting video content, rather than send 2 shooters. These guys are just one example of who needs the screen real estate, running a source/record dual window edit.

My 17" serves as a footage ingest station/preliminary edit station on film shoots, same thing. I had to decide to upgrade my 2011 17" rather than go for this dot zero retina release. If I was only checking email, still photos, and writing in the field then coming back to a workstation it might be different.


Did you actually bother reading my post or did you just read the first 5 words and decide to chime in? I never said that NOBODY needed a 17", I just said that the proportion of people who do is small, and due to the ubiquity of monitors(they are so cheap you can keep a bunch around just for mobile workers who show up) is getting even smaller so it does not make sense for Apple to spend the money producing and supporting the model. You can also run the 15" retina at the same resolution the 17" runs at, further shrinking the already microscopic market for the 17" machine.
You can also put large monitors into vans, I worked in an establishment that did that. So again, an even smaller market share. Non-zero, but basically can be rounded down to 0.
 
Did you actually bother reading my post or did you just read the first 5 words and decide to chime in? I never said that NOBODY needed a 17", I just said that the proportion of people who do is small, and due to the ubiquity of monitors(they are so cheap you can keep a bunch around just for mobile workers who show up) is getting even smaller so it does not make sense for Apple to spend the money producing and supporting the model. You can also run the 15" retina at the same resolution the 17" runs at, further shrinking the already microscopic market for the 17" machine.
You can also put large monitors into vans, I worked in an establishment that did that. So again, an even smaller market share. Non-zero, but basically can be rounded down to 0.

Yes i read your post, and no, the number of 17" users is not effectively zero, and no, putting a LED monitor in a van is not a viable solution for many people. And no, the same resolution at 15" is not a replacement for the screen real estate.

And yes, 17" users would be a small percentage of a very large number (total laptop users), and no, that gross number is not insignificant (unless you only care about the percentages), and furthermore, many of those users would be the users who kept Apple going in lean years and whose use helped generate new users for OSX and who are what marketing people call influentials....documentary producers, Hollywood, etc.

Given the marginal costs to keep a 17" in the line, I would bet that the margins on 17" are generous, so its not a money loser.

It will never mean much compared to the pile of money now being made in iOS and later tv, but as a part of the ecosystem it does mean something. The vast amount of content being seen created on Apple products has meant something, and opening the door for HP and others to take back a proportion of that market is a bigger picture mistake.
 
Yes i read your post, and no, the number of 17" users is not effectively zero, and no, putting a LED monitor in a van is not a viable solution for many people. And no, the same resolution at 15" is not a replacement for the screen real estate.

And yes, 17" users would be a small percentage of a very large number (total laptop users), and no, that gross number is not insignificant (unless you only care about the percentages), and furthermore, many of those users would be the users who kept Apple going in lean years and whose use helped generate new users for OSX and who are what marketing people call influentials....documentary producers, Hollywood, etc.

Given the marginal costs to keep a 17" in the line, I would bet that the margins on 17" are generous, so its not a money loser.

It will never mean much compared to the pile of money now being made in iOS and later tv, but as a part of the ecosystem it does mean something. The vast amount of content being seen created on Apple products has meant something, and opening the door for HP and others to take back a proportion of that market is a bigger picture mistake.
You still seem to be under the mistaken impression that all that is required to make a 17" mbp is a little bit of engineering money, and that assumption is grossly incorrect. There are significant manufacturing costs involved as well as financial risks.

Look at manufacturing, the process isn't magic you realize. In order for Apple to make a different size mbp they either have to either create another line, which is capital intensive, or retool existing lines which significantly disrupts production of the much more popular models. In addition ordering small runs of the various parts necessary to make a different size increases the cost per unit significantly.

Now consider the fact that Apple has to produce enough machines and spare parts AND training to all its different sales outlets but only makes money if the computer gets sold. Now also realize that Apple only makes money if they sell a computer, but has to pay for production costs regardless. They keep the 17" around, they are not only looking at the prospect of having a large # of unsold computers, they also have to keep their capital tied up in the computers while they wait for them to sell. They could make smaller runs of them but that is very innifficient.

Bottom line remains the same, keeping the 17" around for the very, VERY small % of people who will either get a 17" mbp or nothing at all is not financially wise, all your impassioned pleas don't change that fact. Tim Cook is an operations guy, he has studied this information much more than you or I. If he thought it would be worthwhile, he would have kept it around.
 
You still seem to be under the mistaken impression that all that is required to make a 17" mbp is a little bit of engineering money, and that assumption is grossly incorrect. There are significant manufacturing costs involved as well as financial risks.

Look at manufacturing, the process isn't magic you realize. In order for Apple to make a different size mbp they either have to either create another line, which is capital intensive, or retool existing lines which significantly disrupts production of the much more popular models. In addition ordering small runs of the various parts necessary to make a different size increases the cost per unit significantly.

Now consider the fact that Apple has to produce enough machines and spare parts AND training to all its different sales outlets but only makes money if the computer gets sold. Now also realize that Apple only makes money if they sell a computer, but has to pay for production costs regardless. They keep the 17" around, they are not only looking at the prospect of having a large # of unsold computers, they also have to keep their capital tied up in the computers while they wait for them to sell. They could make smaller runs of them but that is very innifficient.

Bottom line remains the same, keeping the 17" around for the very, VERY small % of people who will either get a 17" mbp or nothing at all is not financially wise, all your impassioned pleas don't change that fact. Tim Cook is an operations guy, he has studied this information much more than you or I. If he thought it would be worthwhile, he would have kept it around.

Meeting the needs of the minority % as you put it i.e the creative professionals is not financially wise? In fact the creative industry has been and IS the main image of all that is mac and helped Apple reach the status that it enjoys now and gives Apple the edge over the pc market which only cares about the *bottom line* . If the bottom line is what Apple cares to cater to, then it is no different than microsoft and other PC manufacturers. Dump the creative industry and their *insignificant needs* Apple will definitely need a new promotional image and *creative* or *different* should not be part of it .
 
I was shocked that the new Retina macbooks are all soldered and cannot be upgraded in any way. If you do not buy what you need up front, you are out of luck. I guess they figure customers will throw away their macs sooner and show up at the store in short order.

Judging by resale values on Craigslist and the like, I don't think anyone thinks they throw them away. People that need bleeding edge buy them at the refresh and then sell them to people that are fine with 1-2 year old hardware.
 
Meeting the needs of the minority % as you put it i.e the creative professionals is not financially wise? In fact the creative industry has been and IS the main image of all that is mac and helped Apple reach the status that it enjoys now and gives Apple the edge over the pc market which only cares about the *bottom line* . If the bottom line is what Apple cares to cater to, then it is no different than microsoft and other PC manufacturers. Dump the creative industry and their *insignificant needs* Apple will definitely need a new promotional image and *creative* or *different* should not be part of it .

You are a minority of a minority of a minority. And my guess is that despite all your blustering you will be getting a retina mbp, so Apple hasnt exactly lost a sale there, have they?

Tell ya what, I will admit you are right the second Apples stock goes crashing down because they discontinued a computer option that was guaranteed to cost them money. I dont think I will have to be eating my own hat.
 
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