Tim Cook Calls Apple's Irish Tax Avoidance Accusations 'Total Political Crap'

[Omega Mac]

You won't probably read this level of analysis of what is at play anywhere else, 6 steps to zero-tax heaven

Virtually from the inside of Ireland, a little hard to follow only because it's complex especially if you are not familiar with the EU setup. Interesting that Apple has no Apple store in Ireland (it has one in Northern Ireland, part of UK) and this is supposedly to do with this weird Tax arrangement!

 

[5684697]

Not paying tax is theft from the people.
There is no "easy" or "right" thing there is only the right thing or the wrong thing. Cook knows that and he knows we know it.
Issuing staements with "crap" in them is empty posturing. Crook's rep is down the pooper along with Apple's.
The time is fast approaching when, post Crook, we will all say, "what was Apple thinking".

Hahahahahaha! What about all of the people here who pay almost no income taxes whatsoever? How about those who pay a small fraction of the taxes that others pay, while using far more government resources vs taxes paid than higher income taxpayers do?

Laughable to see this superior attitude when half of Americans have little or no Federal tax liability. What a riot.
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Except in this case, they are paying the obvious straightforward upfront amount that Ireland asks for.


Gotta love when you demonize people for following the law.

U.S.: If you bring that money to the U.S. you have to pay 35% in taxes.
Apple: Okay, it makes more financial sense for us to keep it overseas until we need it here.

What's the problem?

Because some wingnutz here think there is virtue in demanding that others pay taxes while they skate.

 

[koruki]

Tim is a crook. If I did that stuff I'll be put in jail by the IRS. So tired of these big companies getting all these breaks and the little guy getting screwed.

If you follow the laws and did everything legally you'd find it difficult to go to jail. That's exactly what Apple did, don't mix up what is legal with 'Would be nice if a big rich company pays more taxes" They can change the law as much as they like going forward, you can't just blind side someone with a bill when they haven't broken any laws.

 

[nocturnum]

Apple should leave the European Union...

The Irish say that AAPL is in compliance with their laws, but the EU wants to get their grubby little hands on their money. Gotta pay off the elites in Brussels.

Watch the EU continue to fall apart.

And I would not be surprised to learn that more than half of the people pontificating here about tax avoidance being immoral routinely steal music AND software. All justified and rationalized of course, because corporations are "evil".

You sound like a sponge.

 

[weckart]

That's not how it works. The EU can ask its member countries to change their laws. But it is always the laws of each country that count. So the EU would be absolutely right to ask Ireland to change its tax laws. But not to override Irish laws.

Directives from the EU Commission once approved by the EU parliament are binding on every member state. Where these conflict with existing legislation the existing laws must make way. If the directives are not incorporated into local law by any member state within an approved timeframe, then the EU will levy fines until they are.

This is more than just asking. A directive by its nature is an instruction.

 

[Admiral]

Would laws ever be made to allow immoral actions become legal? Why or why not?

Great question. Let's ask Planned Parenthood.

 

[hans1972]

It’s Irish, according to American law; not Irish, according to the Irish. A.O.I., in fact, does not legally exist anywhere, even as it takes in much of the profits from Apple sales outside of the United States."

source

The quote talks about tax residence. That is different.

Apple Operation International is incorporated in Ireland and has a postal address in Ireland.
http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Apple-Operations-International-76941

 

[Freeks]

Tim is probably one of the greediest people alive. Tim charges 35€ for 1€ adapters. Apple don't pay taxes and keeps all the money outside of USA.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Maybe the United Kingdom will give Apple a better deal in the future now that they've decided to give the European Union the Middle Finger and a big NO THANKS to letting Brussels control their security, safety standards and mandatory taxes. Move Apple from Ireland to Northern Ireland. Problem solved (unless they decide to leave the UK in which case, I prefer the pubs in England better anyway ).

 

[apolloa]

Apple should leave the European Union...

The Irish say that AAPL is in compliance with their laws, but the EU wants to get their grubby little hands on their money. Gotta pay off the elites in Brussels.

Watch the EU continue to fall apart.

And I would not be surprised to learn that more than half of the people pontificating here about tax avoidance being immoral routinely steal music AND software. All justified and rationalized of course, because corporations are "evil".

Oh pppleeeeaaaasssseeeee that would be so utterly fantastic. Nothing what so ever will happen to the EU because Apple leaves and it can take all its I toys with it and watch it's business value and profits half. And then watch the company fall into liquidation due to the share price dropping like a rock as a result of one of the most stupid business decisions in the history of business. But the Apple fans will be happy such as yourself eh

 

[erzhik]

I find it funny how so many people are defending Apple. Jesus ****...They are a multi-billion dollar company that doesn't count their money, they weigh it. And yet they pay 1% tax. None of you see a problem with that? I am not saying they should be paying 35% or 50%. Irish tax rate is 12.5%. So why the **** does Apple pay 1%? Yes, many corporations find loopholes to pay less tax, but Apple is world's most valuable company with more cash than the rest of the planet.

 

[simonmet]

TC's childish comments reek of desperation.

And Tim, everything is political, get used to it. But the only thing that's crap is the way your company hardly pays any tax. Less than 0.1% tax in most countries, well if everyone did that what kind of world would it be? Why should an average low income earner pay 40-50% tax and you pay so little?

 

[tomwvr]

You sound like a sponge.

The EU is broken - and Broke - socialist always go broke - so all they are doing is stealing more money to try to keep it afloat. If I was Apple I would close all locations in the EUand open about 10 more locations in England and non EU nations in Europe

 

[Abazigal]

I can't tell if you're trolling or serious....
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Actually it seems to be pretty well filled with the "Apple can do no wrong" fanboy zealots who will defend Apple no mater that the facts are.

Fact is, Apple hasn't broken any laws.

Whether you think Apple is immoral by paying too little tax is a matter of personal opinion, not fact, and thus subject to debate. Just as you are free to express why you think Apple should pay more tax, I am free to explain why I feel that Apple doesn't need to.

The main issue I have with the whole matter is that the EU is interpreting laws according to how they feel the laws ought to be, rather than how the laws are currently structured. That's how how to look at things.

So yes, maybe Apple is wrong here by paying tax than they should, but the EU certainly isn't right in their creative interpretation of the law, and two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[SHNXX]

I really hope Apple hires the best lawyers on the planet and wins this one.
**** bureaucratic overreach.
[doublepost=1472775888][/doublepost]

Fact is, Apple hasn't broken any laws.

Whether you think Apple is immoral by paying too little tax is a matter of personal opinion, not fact, and thus subject to debate. Just as you are free to express why you think Apple should pay more tax, I am free to explain why I feel that Apple doesn't need to.

The main issue I have with the whole matter is that the EU is interpreting laws according to how they feel the laws ought to be, rather than how the laws are currently structured. That's how how to look at things.

So yes, maybe Apple is wrong here by paying tax than they should, but the EU certainly isn't right in their creative interpretation of the law, and two wrongs don't make a right.

But it's not fairrrrrr

 

[tentales]

What shell companies has Apple built? None that I know about.

Seriously, given your otherwise intelligent responses, you can't be that naive ?

Apple, Facebook, Google and many others have similar setups in Europe. Not just Ireland involved here, but often the Netherlands, Luxembourg and other "small" island states with big bank subsidiaries. US companies park over $1Trillion abroad, but Apple is the biggest offender. Here's a nice write-up on how it works:
http://qz.com/769794/apple-is-shocked-shocked-at-a-massive-tax-penalty-that-everybody-saw-coming/

US individual taxpayers have used many offshore "accounting" shenanigans over the decades that the IRS and Feds were going after. Remember all those headlines about Swiss bank accounts ? Now that the shoe's on the other foot and the EU wants their fair share, the US companies are crying foul? CMAR
[doublepost=1472776415][/doublepost]

**** bureaucratic overreach.

Really? Seems to me all governments are in the pockets of the multi-nationals these days. Why bother voting, not like you and I have any say in the matter.

Bureaucracy is the blunting tool of the 1% to conform the 99% to their will.

 

[SHNXX]

Marxism is the blunting tool of the 1% to conform the 99% to their will.

edited

 

[KALLT]

That's not how it works. The EU can ask its member countries to change their laws. But it is always the laws of each country that count. So the EU would be absolutely right to ask Ireland to change its tax laws. But not to override Irish laws.

No, you are wrong. Since Van Gend en Loos v Dutch tax administration (1961) and later cases, it has been accepted by courts and governments alike that EU law takes primacy over national law and is directly applicable. EU competition law is also one area of law where the EU has exclusive competence and these are generally-applicable regulations, not directives. These are not disputed topics.

They do not owe tax to Ireland. It will be proven in the European Court of Justice - not by a stupid report from an unelected technocrat.

Not a chance. Has your coalition government even agreed yet to appeal at all?

Nope. The commission acts as an executive branch with the ability to originate legislative proposals. They are not the law. The law is the various treaties that created the EU. The European Court of Justice is "who actually can decide what is legal and what is not legal."

EU law comprises all the treaties as well as the regulations, directives and decisions based upon them. The implementation of EU competition law, i.e. adopting regulations, is also an exclusive competence of the Commission, so it isn’t just the executive branch.

 

[69650]

The Irish government has been colluding with big American corporations for years to help them avoid their tax liabilities across Europe and quite literally stealing money from other countries. And they have the bare faced cheek to expect the rest of us to bail them out when they nearly went bankrupt a few years ago. Makes my ****ing blood boil.

 

[tentales]

Fact is, Apple hasn't broken any laws.

Indeed, they haven't. They employ too many lawyers to help them avoid that.
But this isn't a trial or even an indictment. It's effectively an invoice. EU to Ireland: "Make Apple pay your standard corporate tax rate". Simple as that.

That rate is 12.5% NOT 0.005% !!!

Why does the EU bother? Coz they're subsidizing Ireland's economy. Ireland receives more money from the EU each year then they contribute to the EU, hence, EU says to Ireland, "you're writing checks you can't cash". Or in this case, "make your domiciled shell companies pay the official tax rate".
http://www.publicpolicy.ie/eu-budget-ireland/

 

[Abazigal]

Indeed, they haven't. They employ too many lawyers to help them avoid that.
But this isn't a trial or even an indictment. It's effectively an invoice. EU to Ireland: "Make Apple pay your standard corporate tax rate". Simple as that.

That rate is 12.5% NOT 0.005% !!!

Why does the EU bother? Coz they're subsidizing Ireland's economy. Ireland receives more money from EU each year then they contribute to the EU, hence, EU says to Ireland, "you're writing checks you can't cash". Or in this case, "make your domiciled shell companies pay the official tax rate".
http://www.publicpolicy.ie/eu-budget-ireland/

I can understand making Ireland change its tax laws so that moving forward, Apple pays the new tax rate from a certain date forward.

But suddenly changing the law and retroactively enforcing it? Imagine if the rules for tennis were suddenly changed overnight, the video playback of every past tennis tournament reviewed and medals and prizes already awarded were suddenly recalled to be redistributed to the new winners. How is that even logical?

This is what I don't understand and can't accept, even more so than Apple paying so little tax.

 

[MH01]

MR now the home of the anti Apple trolls and liable comments. How this place has turned into a joke.

Still plenty of people waving the Pom poms and cheerleading..... Heck Tim could kill a kitten and some would spin it into a possitive and attack the people horrified as trolls .

Executive summary : MR is a site for all, to share opinions , it's a rumour site , not a worship site.

 

[KALLT]

But suddenly changing the law and retroactively enforcing it? Imagine if the rules for tennis were suddenly changed overnight, the video playback of every past tennis tournament reviewed and medals and prizes already awarded were suddenly recalled to be redistributed to the new winners. How is that even logical?

This is what I don't understand and can't accept, even more so than Apple paying so little tax.

It is not a change in the law. It is a belated enforcement. No rules were changed for this. Suppose you were not paying your taxes, because you were not disclosing your employment and salary fully. This will still get you into trouble years after and you will be liable to pay the taxes, maybe even pay a fine on top of it. It matters not that the scheme was legal in Ireland or Apple thought that it was OK, because the Commission considers that the scheme was never legal under EU law. The protection against ‘retroactive’ enforcement comes in the form of statutory limitations, which is 10 years in this case.

 

[tentales]

I find it funny how so many people are defending Apple. Jesus ****...They are a multi-billion dollar company that doesn't count their money, they weigh it. And yet they pay 1% tax. None of you see a problem with that? I am not saying they should be paying 35% or 50%. Irish tax rate is 12.5%. So why the **** does Apple pay 1%? Yes, many corporations find loopholes to pay less tax, but Apple is world's most valuable company with more cash than the rest of the planet.

Agreed, but it's not even 1% tax, with all the backroom credits, it's 0.005%.

 

[MH01]

I can understand making Ireland change its tax laws so that moving forward, Apple pays the new tax rate from a certain date forward.

But suddenly changing the law and retroactively enforcing it? Imagine if the rules for tennis were suddenly changed overnight, the video playback of every past tennis tournament reviewed and medals and prizes already awarded were suddenly recalled to be redistributed to the new winners. How is that even logical?

This is what I don't understand and can't accept, even more so than Apple paying so little tax.

It's not retrospective. The law is 12.5%

If you are to pay 40% tax rate, but you pay 5% cause your tax agent gives you a deal I a scheme he sets up and your tax office asked you to pay the remaining 35% , it's no retrospective, you did it pay enough.

Forget Apple here for a sec . Ireland has been told they were not in a position to offer lower than 12.5%

And last of all..... These sales were from EU, not just Ireland....

As an EU citizen i am not going to subsidise Ireland , cause they are letting Apple Pay no tax on the items I buy in the eu and my taxes go to Ireland to support their infrastructure , it's taking the piss.