Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Wrong, the goverment that answers to its electorate decides what gets done with it.

Never ceases to amaze how Americans get brainwashed into cheerleading for huge corporations, every dollar they don't pay in taxes you do, with your hard work and your lifetime. I respectfully suggest you stop bending over and start standing up for your own interests.

I think that John Oliver summed it up nicely:
.

Basically, almost every American believes he will someday be rich, like Apple - so rich that he will have to avoid taxes by complicated schemes to protect his enormous fortune.
Unfortunately; that's not/won't be the case. The game field isn't the same for the rich and the middle class & poor. And all those dollars kept outside your country are simply... not helping your country, your community, your children, your parents and yourself. I know that governments tend to waste money, but that's a side effect to the things they're doing: like building roads, healthcare, social care, schools etc. Apple, Google and Starbucks won't repair the roads in your city, they won't finance help for the homeless, they won't pay for someone's operation and they won't pay for your kids' school.
Apple is sitting on a humongous cash pile. That money isn't working for the US economy nor any other economy besides Apple's.
Yes, it's legal what Apple does - they spend millions on lawyers to make sure of it. But that doesn't change the fact that the system is messed up. And the corporations like Apple are basically harassing governments to make the rules for them: lower the tax rates and we will pay the taxes. Don't lower them and we will avoid taxes.

And remember: regular citizen=not a millionaire, which is most of Americans can't operate according to the same rules! If I could avoid taxes like Apple, then maybe I would. But you and me - we have to play by different, less favorable rules, so don't be so quick to sympathize with Apple.
 
Apple is sitting on a humongous cash pile. That money isn't working for the US economy nor any other economy besides Apple's.

Some of Apple's cash pile is working for the US economy, right?

I was led to believe that Apple has cash in the US... and in other nations.

And since Apple isn't required to bring the overseas cash home... why are people upset when they don't? Sounds like false outrage to me.
 
Last edited:
And since Apple isn't required to bring the overseas cash home... why are people upset when they don't? Sounds like false outrage to me.

There is an issue in that large multinational corporations, like Apple, can take advantages of different tax rules for taxing corporations in different countries to give themselves a competitive advantage, such as booking income in EU countries that offer lower rates than other countries.

Personally, I don't care if we all decide that corporate income taxes are 0%, or, 50%. But, we should have international consistency so that corporate lawyers and accountants can't game the system. They should be competing on quality and price, not on who has the smartest lawyers and accountants.
 
There is an issue in that large multinational corporations, like Apple, can take advantages of different tax rules for taxing corporations in different countries to give themselves a competitive advantage, such as booking income in EU countries that offer lower rates than other countries.

Personally, I don't care if we all decide that corporate income taxes are 0%, or, 50%. But, we should have international consistency so that corporate lawyers and accountants can't game the system. They should be competing on quality and price, not on who has the smartest lawyers and accountants.

We all try to get the cheapest price, best interest rate, tax deduction we can get. Don't see the issue with Apple or any other corporation in doing the same as long as its legal.
 
You've got a company who is always talking about doing right basically doing wrong. Is it legal? Yes. Is it morally right, No.

What is "basically doing wrong?" To me its either right OR wrong, not sort of wrong. Its morally wrong to save its shareholders money? Morally wrong to take advantage of any tax breaks, incentives, like private citizens do?
 
???? What is there to apologize for? Seems to me a bunch of uninformed people spouting off about rich Apple cheating the government when they obviously have no idea how international companies run. It's disgusting that our educational system does not teach more basic business skills.

You do realize that Apple is only part of this discussion because they have so much cash - more than most companies make in their entire existence.... but that's the only reason Apple is singled out on this issue because every international company I know of does similar things to help protect their revenue from unecessary taxation.

Thanks for showing every reader of MacRumors that Apple apologists are real.
 
We all try to get the cheapest price, best interest rate, tax deduction we can get. Don't see the issue with Apple or any other corporation in doing the same as long as its legal.

It's only legal because of our outdated and convoluted tax code, which would be reformed if Congress weren't so dysfunctional.
 
What is "basically doing wrong?" To me its either right OR wrong, not sort of wrong. Its morally wrong to save its shareholders money? Morally wrong to take advantage of any tax breaks, incentives, like private citizens do?

Corporate greed is not a justification for anything. Pay your taxes like everyone else!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Benjamin Frost
I am taxed by the US Feds, the state where I still own a "primary residence" and the government of Malaysia. If I sell my house in the US while living abroad, I am forced to pay a 55% capital gains tax with no option to invest the profits of the sale.

A small percentage of my foreign tax is credited on my US tax return via the so-called foreign tax credit. Any ex-pat with any significant income (including expenses incurred and reimbursed abroad) far exceeds this tax credit joke.

My company reimburses me for a portion of the tax I pay in Malaysia, which the US government sees as income, and which then gets taxed in all three jurisdictions again.

The bill for my tax accounting is more than someone flipping burgers makes in a year...

Most other countries do NOT tax you for income earned while living and working abroad. There is an active movement by relocated ex-pats to actually denounce US citizenship as a result of the US tax policies, however it's not legal to renounce your citizenship over taxation...

Corporate repatriation tax is even worst, and forces companies with significant income abroad to spend that money in a foreign country as well to a pot upwards of 60% taxation.

The US needs to come to grips with the fact it cannot tax its way to financial stability.

this makes more sense , though people assume double tax is earning earning $10, Malaysia taxing you $3 from the $10 and US taxing you $3 from the $10. That is not what is happening here.

I'm Australian, and any foreign income coming into Australia gets assessed for income status , I believe many counties with double tax treaties around the world are the same.
 
And how would you go about making this law? Would you propose that it be illegal for any non-US based company to buy a controlling interest in one based in the US?

They can only prevent American companies from doing it.

The European Commission is a joke. Apple is a company that makes real products that people buy. Why not go after the banksters, hedge fund managers, and other financial parasites who produce nothing of value, ruin people's lives, and see themselves as above the law and paragons of virtue.

Why can't we go after all of them?

===

Tim shouldn't have lost his temper and just stated that Apple pays all required taxes in the area's it operates full stop. He's never been all that emotional and he shouldn't have let them speak for him this time I'm sure it'll not happen again. In the next few years the EU is going to give most of silicon valley a slap and they'll come here and cry, government types will be all sympathetic and that's as far as it will go.
 
Tim shouldn't have lost his temper and just stated that Apple pays all required taxes in the area's it operates full stop. He's never been all that emotional and he shouldn't have let them speak for him this time I'm sure it'll not happen again. In the next few years the EU is going to give most of silicon valley a slap and they'll come here and cry, government types will be all sympathetic and that's as far as it will go.

Can't we look at Apple's SEC filings or whatever?

If they're fudging their numbers... they'd be in trouble.
 
The US needs to come to grips with the fact it cannot tax its way to financial stability.

Heh, try the rest of the world as well. Taxing in order to achieve financial stability seems to be a very popular belief these days. And always overlooking the fact that nobody achieved a financial stability that way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dk001
Heh, try the rest of the world as well. Taxing in order to achieve financial stability seems to be a very popular belief these days. And always overlooking the fact that nobody achieved a financial stability that way.

Source.
 
Ahem...Apple already paid taxes for that money overseas. Bringing that money back to the U.S. would incur double taxation. I think a one time tax free transfer to American banks, then tax it as it normally applies.

No they did not! That is the whole point of this. They paid some taxes based of Virgin Islands tax rate while they sell in Germany, France and all over the Europe. They have successfully evaded paying taxes in every European country they do business in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Benjamin Frost
First of all... what Apple is doing with iTunes S.a.r.l and Baldwin is legal and common practice. So why is that an issue? Sorry to break your bubble but many companies do this. It is legal you know?

The other thing about the 40%... you don't feel that's too high to bring in revenue from out of the country? No one is saying that Apple shouldn't pay something, but 40% seems excessive... and... if they are bringing it back to invest in US based offices, employees or other employment generating activities... it might be okay for them to bring it in Tax free in my opinion.

People can go on and on about all the legal things Apple is doing to avoid corporate revenue tax, but Apple and their employees generate more tax revenue than most companies even make it top line revenue.

You are right Apple is just one of the many that do this but since this is about the Apple then we are pointing out to the facts regarding Apple.

US is absolutely not wrong with 40% tax rate on the money that has not been taxed and needs to enter the US. Its government's way of saying "hey you need that money? Cool you can have it but next time don't do that off-shore crap" and its only a matter of time when Apple will need that money. Its not a question of if but a question of when since US is still the most biggest pillar of stability and security when it comes to private property. Of course there are ways to get that money back in US without taxation but not for the billions they have, that's not that easy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eraserhead
You've got a company who is always talking about doing right basically doing wrong. Is it legal? Yes. Is it morally right, No.
Is it morally wrong for the government to tax 40%+ on that money? Is it morally wrong to do a lot of things the government has done?

What is basically doing wrong? You're either right or wrong.

I think these numbers are so arbitrary and it's ridiculous you have to just trust the government to do the right thing. If there was more transparency is how the states and government spend their money and why these %'s are the way they are - it would instill much more confidence.

But in this type of economy - the shareholders money is the most important first and foremost.

If you invested in someone - wouldn't you want your hard earned money treated like this?
 
You are right Apple is just one of the many that do this but since this is about the Apple then we are pointing out to the facts regarding Apple.

US is absolutely not wrong with 40% tax rate on the money that has not been taxed and needs to enter the US. Its government's way of saying "hey you need that money? Cool you can have it but next time don't do that off-shore crap" and its only a matter of time when Apple will need that money. Its not a question of if but a question of when since US is still the most biggest pillar of stability and security when it comes to private property. Of course there are ways to get that money back in US without taxation but not for the billions they have, that's not that easy.
Why do you feel 40% is a good number?
 
I feel that the debate here would be much better served if it were split into two separate threads, as there are essentially two different things being debated, which is leading to confusion. Whilst together, the discussion is rather obfuscated somewhat.

Firstly the US tax issue is something – as a British person – I am not informed or clued-up enough on to discuss. From a brief overview it seems there is a worthwhile debate to be had on the whole topic, as it does seem somewhat unfair to corporations/US citizens etc.

The second issue, namely Apple funnelling off its revenue made in one country to another which operates as a tax haven, thereby avoiding paying the tax owed in the country of purchase:

For a start, can we drop the lexical semantics in regards to the word avoid, from those clutching at straws as a way of defending what Apple do? It's ridiculous, time-wasting and proves your point no better. If Apple is using legal loopholes to move money to one country – as so to pay a lower rate of tax than that of the country they moved it from – they are by matter of fact doing so to avoid the higher threshold. There's no legality issue here in using the word, it just is – objectively – avoidance; it's what the word is in the English language for.

avoid;
contrive not to

contrive;
create or bringabout (an object or a situation) by deliberate use of skill and artifice

When Apple registers to do business in a country like the UK, it does so knowing – and acknowledging – to meet the requirements stipulated by that country in regards to the taxation of its monetary income from business in that country. That loopholes are found to avoid doing this whilst staying within the parameters of the law is a side issue: It is to me in the first instance underhand, dishonest, anticompetitive (to those companies who do acknoweldge and abide by them) and ultimately to the detriment of the people who live in that country.

In the United Kingdom we have the NHS. We are wonderfully privileged and lucky to have a health service that is free of charge to treat us. Any hour of the day, any illness or emergency, any length of time to recover in a hospital needed, 99% of this taken care of completely free. It's a truly brilliant thing that far too many people take for granted. Our NHS currently faces fierce cuts which leads to an inability to meet its obligations. Waiting times to get seen, over-worked staff, budgets for drugs, new staff recruitment and training, all these things are deteriorating because the budget is either been cut or the costs of operating it outweigh the budget currently attributed to it.

The NHS is an easy one to use as an example... In the UK, if you are arrested and charged with a crime, and summoned to court to defend yourself – if you cannot afford to do so the state will provide you with legal representation for free. This isn't some Simpsons budget charlatan lawyer but the finest legal professionals in the country who will fight your case fairly and unbiased, all for free of charge. They will ensure you are given equality before the law. It's called Legal Aid, and the budgets for this have been completely slashed, meaning the ability to make sure you are represented and defended fairly deteriorates.

In the UK, when you retire, if you have or haven't saved for a pension when you retire, the state will provide you with one.

If you suddenly find yourself out of work – or owing to the recession or any other factor you can't get employment – the state will provide you with money to live off.

If you are disabled, or have child with a disability under your care or supervision, the state will provide you with services to ensure you are supported – be it monetary, transport, housing, apparatus, education and so on. The budgets for this have been drastically slashed. Vulnerable people are suffering because of the changes to funding, those who need assistance the most can't get it.

Libraries, which are free of charge to borrow books from, are closing left right and centre, especially small community libraries. Mankind's wealth of knowledge and learning is in these books, which is now less accessible to people who want to learn.

These are just a small and off the top of my head selection of services afforded to citizens of our country, paid for by the raising of funds via taxation. They are the cornerstone of a well-rounded British society, giving care to the vulnerable, education to everyone, health services to anyone. We are given these indiscriminately as citizens of the country, and in return we agree to be taxed on a certain proportion of our monetary income to pay for them. It's a glorious system that whilst by no means perfect, has been the fruits of many thousands of years of battle and struggle for, and which in my opinion makes our society better for it; a better place to live for all.

By agreeing to partake in business in this country, a company acknowledges these facets and agrees to operate in accordance with them, for as long as they operate here they will be afforded the same rights and services as anyone else. From day one they take on a moral obligation to operate in a just and fair way – the same way the rest of us do. If not self-employed and on a proper payroll system, we all automatically have a portion of our wages deducted that has been democratically agreed upon to be a fair proportional contribution in the context of our salary.

For one of the past years Apple paid £11.4m tax in the UK on what would be £billions of revenue (we all know Apple's lovely profit margins). It's widely acknowledged their taxation in this country is under 1%. I don't care if it's legal, I don't care if Tim Cook gets the best deal for the shareholders, and I don't care about the pathetic semantics of how you want to dress it up, in my eyes it is nothing short disgusting. It is shameful that they will reap the monetary benefits of operating within a country, but are unwilling to pay their dues to the country that they are stipulated to do so for being able to operate in. It is taking but not giving. They have a legal, moral, and human obligation to pay the dues required of them – they agreed to do so by doing business there – because it is these dues that help the country operate and carry out their services to their citizens.

I remember reading Johny Ive bitching about how he went to a school and they didn't draw or make anything physical when prototyping. Hey Johny, guess how those machines are funded in our free education system?

If Apple, Amazon, Starbucks, Dyson, and all the other deplorable companies paid the dues they agreed to pay as a stipulation of operating in this country, many more people wouldn't die owing to poor waiting times; go through unnecessary pain because the treatment or drugs won't be prescribed as they're outside of the current NHS budget; more young children (and old people) would have much better access to free books to educate themselves and learn more about the world, our society would be safer because our Police service wouldn't be facing cuts to it's numbers; the disabled, vulnerable and in-need of our country would be getting a much better service that we a human beings owe; the elderly would have more money to live off; and people on the whole would have a better quality of life. That is the concept of tax – to fund services that lead to a better quality of life.

It's a service that we subscribe to and reap the fruits of by the very nature of our location and residence. Unfortunately Apple et al are conning that, and that is wrong, wrong on so many levels.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.