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He's right. It's legal.
Of course it is but here’s what’s happening;
Just suppose you drive through a town and there is a section of road where they put up the wrong speed limit signs by mistake and you know that’s the case as you’re outside a school with no barriers. You know you SHOULD be doing 30mph but you drive at 60.
I feel that the debate here would be much better served if it were split into two separate threads, as there are essentially two different things being debated, which is leading to confusion. Whilst together, the discussion is rather obfuscated somewhat.

Firstly the US tax issue is something – as a British person – I am not informed or clued-up enough on to discuss. From a brief overview it seems there is a worthwhile debate to be had on the whole topic, as it does seem somewhat unfair to corporations/US citizens etc.

The second issue, namely Apple funnelling off its revenue made in one country to another which operates as a tax haven, thereby avoiding paying the tax owed in the country of purchase:

For a start, can we drop the lexical semantics in regards to the word avoid, from those clutching at straws as a way of defending what Apple do? It's ridiculous, time-wasting and proves your point no better. If Apple is using legal loopholes to move money to one country – as so to pay a lower rate of tax than that of the country they moved it from – they are by matter of fact doing so to avoid the higher threshold. There's no legality issue here in using the word, it just is – objectively – avoidance; it's what the word is in the English language for.

avoid;
contrive not to

contrive;
create or bringabout (an object or a situation) by deliberate use of skill and artifice

When Apple registers to do business in a country like the UK, it does so knowing – and acknowledging – to meet the requirements stipulated by that country in regards to the taxation of its monetary income from business in that country. That loopholes are found to avoid doing this whilst staying within the parameters of the law is a side issue: It is to me in the first instance underhand, dishonest, anticompetitive (to those companies who do acknoweldge and abide by them) and ultimately to the detriment of the people who live in that country.

In the United Kingdom we have the NHS. We are wonderfully privileged and lucky to have a health service that is free of charge to treat us. Any hour of the day, any illness or emergency, any length of time to recover in a hospital needed, 99% of this taken care of completely free. It's a truly brilliant thing that far too many people take for granted. Our NHS currently faces fierce cuts which leads to an inability to meet its obligations. Waiting times to get seen, over-worked staff, budgets for drugs, new staff recruitment and training, all these things are deteriorating because the budget is either been cut or the costs of operating it outweigh the budget currently attributed to it.

The NHS is an easy one to use as an example... In the UK, if you are arrested and charged with a crime, and summoned to court to defend yourself – if you cannot afford to do so the state will provide you with legal representation for free. This isn't some Simpsons budget charlatan lawyer but the finest legal professionals in the country who will fight your case fairly and unbiased, all for free of charge. They will ensure you are given equality before the law. It's called Legal Aid, and the budgets for this have been completely slashed, meaning the ability to make sure you are represented and defended fairly deteriorates.

In the UK, when you retire, if you have or haven't saved for a pension when you retire, the state will provide you with one.

If you suddenly find yourself out of work – or owing to the recession or any other factor you can't get employment – the state will provide you with money to live off.

If you are disabled, or have child with a disability under your care or supervision, the state will provide you with services to ensure you are supported – be it monetary, transport, housing, apparatus, education and so on. The budgets for this have been drastically slashed. Vulnerable people are suffering because of the changes to funding, those who need assistance the most can't get it.

Libraries, which are free of charge to borrow books from, are closing left right and centre, especially small community libraries. Mankind's wealth of knowledge and learning is in these books, which is now less accessible to people who want to learn.

These are just a small and off the top of my head selection of services afforded to citizens of our country, paid for by the raising of funds via taxation. They are the cornerstone of a well-rounded British society, giving care to the vulnerable, education to everyone, health services to anyone. We are given these indiscriminately as citizens of the country, and in return we agree to be taxed on a certain proportion of our monetary income to pay for them. It's a glorious system that whilst by no means perfect, has been the fruits of many thousands of years of battle and struggle for, and which in my opinion makes our society better for it; a better place to live for all.

By agreeing to partake in business in this country, a company acknowledges these facets and agrees to operate in accordance with them, for as long as they operate here they will be afforded the same rights and services as anyone else. From day one they take on a moral obligation to operate in a just and fair way – the same way the rest of us do. If not self-employed and on a proper payroll system, we all automatically have a portion of our wages deducted that has been democratically agreed upon to be a fair proportional contribution in the context of our salary.

For one of the past years Apple paid £11.4m tax in the UK on what would be £billions of revenue (we all know Apple's lovely profit margins). It's widely acknowledged their taxation in this country is under 1%. I don't care if it's legal, I don't care if Tim Cook gets the best deal for the shareholders, and I don't care about the pathetic semantics of how you want to dress it up, in my eyes it is nothing short disgusting. It is shameful that they will reap the monetary benefits of operating within a country, but are unwilling to pay their dues to the country that they are stipulated to do so for being able to operate in. It is taking but not giving. They have a legal, moral, and human obligation to pay the dues required of them – they agreed to do so by doing business there – because it is these dues that help the country operate and carry out their services to their citizens.

I remember reading Johny Ive bitching about how he went to a school and they didn't draw or make anything physical when prototyping. Hey Johny, guess how those machines are funded in our free education system?

If Apple, Amazon, Starbucks, Dyson, and all the other deplorable companies paid the dues they agreed to pay as a stipulation of operating in this country, many more people wouldn't die owing to poor waiting times; go through unnecessary pain because the treatment or drugs won't be prescribed as they're outside of the current NHS budget; more young children (and old people) would have much better access to free books to educate themselves and learn more about the world, our society would be safer because our Police service wouldn't be facing cuts to it's numbers; the disabled, vulnerable and in-need of our country would be getting a much better service that we a human beings owe; the elderly would have more money to live off; and people on the whole would have a better quality of life. That is the concept of tax – to fund services that lead to a better quality of life.

It's a service that we subscribe to and reap the fruits of by the very nature of our location and residence. Unfortunately Apple et al are conning that, and that is wrong, wrong on so many levels.
Bloody hell. This post needs to be a sticky.
It illustrates perfectly what a dishonest bunch of so and so’s Tim Cook and his cohorts are. Does the same for a lot of other companies and individuals too actually. The bit about Jony Ive, priceless.
This moral crusade he purports to be all about is a facade.
 
I tell you what it has to do with it. There is a cost to everything if one company does not pay another one pays more. The protection outlined in the attachment comes with a cost.


And my point is that "cost" is more than made up for by basing your company in America and paying one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world.

Many other countries do not charge taxes on money earned outside of the country and businesses from those countries often expect the same protections you outlined.

Also, what is your solution to this? You believe Apple, and other large corporations should be forced to repatriate? Do you believe that a movement can be started to encourage nationalism so that companies will just repatriate on their own despite how illogical it would be?
 
We can all rest assured that Tim and his political friends will do what is best for America's finances.

tim-cook-eddy-cue-grammy-800x450.jpg


Minority leader has a nice rack.


Biggest crooks right there....I invented the internet/I buy my own carbon credits Gore and Read it to see what's in it Pelosi. Bow down to your demigods.
 
No they don't. Don't be clueless.

The second statement refers to bringing the money they have over seas into the United States. They don't HAVE to do that. They are free to keep their money overseas right where it is. There is no Evasion going on here.

His problem with that is that it would cost him 40% of that money to bring it into the US because are tax system is such a total mess that we make companies pay taxes to bring money they made in other places into the country.

It should be FREE to do that. That money only benefits the country by being here instead of there.

The first comment regarding the tax avoidance issues are other matters and have nothing to do with the money they have in banks overseas.


YUP - if i make that much $$ overseas, i would keep it there too. i only pay for what i make in the US.
 
The law is the law. I also do not like to travel at the speed limit and most people don't but that's the law. As a small time investor I have to pay ALL my taxes so should everyone else. Including Apple.

You're like the 100th person in this thread crying about paying your taxes and stating Apple should pay there's.

Are you guys even aware of the discussion?
 
Why not tax at 40%?

The only figure that isn't "arbitrary" is half.

Why not tax at 39.5? Why not tax at 37.25?

Half is just as arbitrary as 40%.

Why is half not arbitrary? Because we have a word for 50% and it's easy to do math on it?
 
Since when is investment income/stock income hard-earned?

... The money in which YOU INVESTED - not your income/profits from your investments. That was my statement.

And to be honest with you - if you're doing it right then your investments should be hard earned.
 
Note that trend started with the current President.
The trend started in Sept 2008, about the time Lehman Brothers collapsed under the previous President. Lehman collapsed as a result of excessively high leverage and investment in bad mortgages under the previous President.

fredgraph-3.png

Amazing how many people take a November '08 election and use that to confuse people into thinking Obama was responsible for everything that happened in that year...
 
Ahem...Apple already paid taxes for that money overseas. Bringing that money back to the U.S. would incur double taxation. I think a one time tax free transfer to American banks, then tax it as it normally applies.

I'm not even talking about bringing it back... I'm saying they are in Ireland as opposed to the UK because of preferential tax code. Everything else is a red herring. Apple is in Ireland to avoid paying taxes. Yes, they pay a measly little bitty amount. But they pay less in Ireland, which is why they are there. London would be a much better place to run your European operations. But ouch, the taxes!
 
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This has NOTHING to do with charity, even by analogy. You seem to be turning the concepts of legality and morality inside out, making legality the moral standard, and morality something to sneer at. At one time slavery was legal too. Just because something is technically legal does not make it right, fair, acceptable, or desirable.

You are the one confused. Legality is simply the rule of law. Laws exist because a group of people called "citizens" agreed that their representatives/leaders should write those laws to regulate society. In this case, Apple is following (you would call it "taking advantage") of corporate laws written to regulate business.

Laws that are deemed unpopular by citizens eventually get changed or replaced. But until that happens, laws are the accepted rules that citizens/corporations have agreed to abide by.

To turn this into an "Apple is immoral" narrative is stupid, because morality is rarely agreed upon and is highly subjective. What morality do you want to use? Christian morals? Islamic Sharia moral values? Atheist morality? Greenpeace treehugger moral values? Or something totally different?
 
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You're like the 100th person in this thread crying about paying your taxes and stating Apple should pay there's.

Are you guys even aware of the discussion?

Funny you are like the 100th person in the thread trying to excuse corporate greed. There is more to life than your ROI.
 
Why not tax at 39.5? Why not tax at 37.25?

Half is just as arbitrary as 40%.

Why is half not arbitrary? Because we have a word for 50% and it's easy to do math on it?

Why is my flats service charge £1204.35? Entirely arbitrary right?

Actually we set it to that to cover our expenses.
 
Of course it is but here’s what’s happening;
Just suppose you drive through a town and there is a section of road where they put up the wrong speed limit signs by mistake and you know that’s the case as you’re outside a school with no barriers. You know you SHOULD be doing 30mph but you drive at 60.

But in this case, everybody knows about the sign being wrong, but no one fixes it. So screw it, I'm going 60.
 
Want your child educated? Pay for it.

Great and what do you do with the children of parents who are too poor (or just too stupid) to pay to send their kids to school? Because at the end of it they will have no useful skills and be unable to get any sort of job.

They are highly likely to get involved in crime, which is expensive in terms of the damage it does to communities as well as being expensive in terms of the cost of prison. Prison is about 4x more expensive in the UK than school, so if someone is in prison for 3 years that will have cost more than school - and that ignores the policing and court costs to get them there.

Want a pension? Work for it.

Great, and how do you plan to force people to save money for their pensions? Mandatory social contributions? Because that's basically a tax.

Because otherwise you'll land up with a bunch of old people with no money to look after themselves.

Child services? Are you talking daycare?

No I'm talking about the government department that stops child neglect and abuse. It's very expensive.
 
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US citizens do not want to pay for anything that is not related to them. So they assume they will not be affected. That's why their healthcare system is so expensive. They practically live in a police state. The education system is also super expansive. Etc.etc.etc.

I live in Spain, and yes I pay more taxes then the US. But I have an excellent healthcare system which is free. School system is almost free. The police is not out there harassing people or killing people just because.
 
Why is my flats service charge £1204.35? Entirely arbitrary right?

Actually we set it to that to cover our expenses.
And that's exactly what I was proposing in my earlier post.

If government spending was more transparent - there would be much more confidence and acceptance.

But it is not.
 
Funny you are like the 100th person in the thread trying to excuse corporate greed. There is more to life than your ROI.

Who is trying to excuse corporate greed?

You want to address why you cry about paying your taxes in a thread about Apple not bringing money back to the USA due to high tax rates for such action?

This more about freedom than corporate greed.

But your type always has that feel sorry for yourselves mentality.
 
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And that's exactly what I was proposing in my earlier post.

If government spending was more transparent - there would be much more confidence and acceptance.

But it is not.

How much detail do you want? Because on a department level the information is available?
 
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