Tim Cook Calls Apple's Tax Avoidance Accusations 'Total Political Crap'

[1458279]

Actually you are assuming what I thought. I know that outsourcing is not geographic and that some jobs don't qualify for going outside the US. You can outsource down the street or China, it's still outsourcing. Offshoring (actually not all nations have a shore) but it means another country.

However, you haven't sited anything that proves that that would justify the huge pay difference.

Suggesting that the private vs public pay difference is because of low paying jobs being outsource would also assume that the private sector couldn't follow the same model.

I actually voted for publicly supported voucher system years ago, it didn't pass. I think we're at least partly on the same page there, because I'm not against taxes going to education, I'm against the waste of money it's proven to be.

In the end, it really won't matter much, robots can do most anything a human can do, so these people will have problems far beyond what they think. Trucks are driving themselves, Amazon has 15,000 robots working their logistics, drones will handle deliveries, robots will make the food. Won't have much used for undereducated humans.

 

[Mr D]

You continue to assume that it's ok not to pay taxes because there is a loophole that allows to evade it legally.

I'm not mad at anyone. If anything I'm astonished at how blind and lacking in morals the typical user is on here.

Assume? Morals?

First off - I am not assuming anything, and that is your problem. You vocabulary is that of someone that doesn't understand straight logic.

I am saying it is OK for someone to do something as long as it's within the laws. Bending rules has been a part of every single facet of a high competitive reality in the world. Sports and business. If you're not doing it, and your competitors are - you are literally decreasing your chances, your %'s of succeeding - all in the name of this thing we call "morals"

You DO NOT understand the reality business, nor do you understand the cut throat realities of operating a publicly traded company.

There is a lot of REAL immoral things that goes on - such as the cheap labor in China...child labor - and this isn't close to one of them.

Apple is doing what every company in the history of the world has done, and will continue to do until the end of time.

It is NOT Apple nor companies responsibility to take not advantage of loopholes, and it is there very RIGHT to keep the money where they want to keep it. It's not as if they're HIDING it.

It is the responsibility of the governments to stop this from happening. Have a problem? Ban them from selling their product in your country.

Oh WAIT, you can't because Apple brings in so much $ and economic stimulation to your country...

 

[1458279]

I wonder how everyone would feel if Apple ends up losing the smart phone battle. 20% of ALL gains in the S&P500 for the last 5 years were ALL APPLE.

Has anyone talked about the value that Apple ALONE created in the stock market?

It sad that so many people don't get the clue that the US has to wake up and change the system. Unless it's already too late.

 

[samiwas]

I wonder how everyone would feel if Apple ends up losing the smart phone battle. 20% of ALL gains in the S&P500 for the last 5 years were ALL APPLE.

Has anyone talked about the value that Apple ALONE created in the stock market?

Can you source this? I can't find this claim. I can find a claim that Apple was ONE OF the five stocks which together made up of 20% of the return in 2014.

 

[samiwas]

In the end, it really won't matter much, robots can do most anything a human can do, so these people will have problems far beyond what they think. Trucks are driving themselves, Amazon has 15,000 robots working their logistics, drones will handle deliveries, robots will make the food. Won't have much used for undereducated humans.

Those people will still exist. So, we better come up with some sort of plan for them. Champion a robotic takeover all you want, but it won't lead to much if a majority of your citizenry is left unemployed by it. In fact, it won't get very far at all..because who's going to be buying all the products those robots are producing?

 

[0488568]

Assume? Morals?

First off - I am not assuming anything, and that is your problem. You vocabulary is that of someone that doesn't understand straight logic.

I am saying it is OK for someone to do something as long as it's within the laws. Bending rules has been a part of every single facet of a high competitive reality in the world. Sports and business. If you're not doing it, and your competitors are - you are literally decreasing your chances, your %'s of succeeding - all in the name of this thing we call "morals"

You DO NOT understand the reality business, nor do you understand the cut throat realities of operating a publicly traded company.

There is a lot of REAL immoral things that goes on - such as the cheap labor in China...child labor - and this isn't close to one of them.

Apple is doing what every company in the history of the world has done, and will continue to do until the end of time.

It is NOT Apple nor companies responsibility to take not advantage of loopholes, and it is there very RIGHT to keep the money where they want to keep it. It's not as if they're HIDING it.

It is the responsibility of the governments to stop this from happening. Have a problem? Ban them from selling their product in your country.

Oh WAIT, you can't because Apple brings in so much $ and economic stimulation to your country...

Apple spends 0€ in my country.

You're problem is that you have no morals. You think like a thief and you think everyone is a thief just like you.

Not all companies use apple's "techniques" to pay taxes.

 

[1458279]

Those people will still exist. So, we better come up with some sort of plan for them. Champion a robotic takeover all you want, but it won't lead to much if a majority of your citizenry is left unemployed by it. In fact, it won't get very far at all..because who's going to be buying all the products those robots are producing?

If this were true, why do people buy so many things that are not made in the USA? We've been buying things made outside the US for decades while knowing this hurts job growth here. The reality of people is they are much more concerned with themselves than others, they act in their own best interest.

How many of us actually seek out "made in the USA" ? How is it any different to buy something made in China or Mexico than it is to buy something made by a robot vs a human? How would you know exactly how much of a product is made by a machine vs a human?

Look at the sales at Amazon, now look at the robots that run things there. How many people care that the package was handled by a human vs a robot?

How many jobs were lost when Amazon killed the brick-n-mortor bookstores? How many jobs were lost at Blockbuster Video?

The invasion of robotics will happen, people will be powerless to stop it, they won't even know which product is robot made vs human made.

America was sued (and lost) because of COOL (Country Of Origin Labeling). The law won't even allow you to know where food is made. TPP allows countries to sue over this and their government won't have a say in it. How do you think Human/Robot made labeling will go?

China is investing $180 Billion in manufacturing robots, how will you ever know the difference?

What effect did protest in France have when they started shutting down factories. Look at the unemployment rate in EU.

Consumers act on their own best interest, they really don't care if you have a job, they care more that you get out of their way so they can get to their job.

The world if a free-for-all, people see others injured and they take a selfie, there's videos of people stepping over a dead body that's in their way. The hard truth about people is that they really don't give a dam about each other.

As far as Apple's impact on the S&P, I track so many sources that I can't remember them all. Might have been an interview on NBR. Should be able to look at the net gains then the size of Apple then compare. Cramer talks about how Google, Apple, Amazon and a few others are the primary support of the gains. In fact the markets are so narrowly supported, we've become pretty dependent on a very small number of companies.

 

[samiwas]

If this were true, why do people buy so many things that are not made in the USA? We've been buying things made outside the US for decades while knowing this hurts job growth here. The reality of people is they are much more concerned with themselves than others, they act in their own best interest.

Wow. This was a super-long post (almost as long as the ones I make) that didn't even respond to what you quoted. The robot invasion has not fully taken over. If fast food becomes fully automated, and Amazon becomes fully automated, and retail checkout becomes mostly automated, and numerous other places become fully automated, a huge number of people will have to find other employment. With most lower-skilled jobs being removed, what will all those people do?

Up until now, they've moved from manufacturing to retail. From digging ditches into fast food. But, now, if you remove the floor they all went to out of necessity, where will they go from here? Not good. "Getting an education" and "gaining skills" will only go so far, with too many people fighting for the same jobs. It also means that mid-level jobs will start lowering pay as more people start fighting for them.

So, the question is: what's the plan for all these people?

As far as Apple's impact on the S&P, I track so many sources that I can't remember them all. Might have been an interview on NBR. Should be able to look at the net gains then the size of Apple then compare. Cramer talks about how Google, Apple, Amazon and a few others are the primary support of the gains. In fact the markets are so narrowly supported, we've become pretty dependent on a very small number of companies.

Okay, so an unsourced claim. Gotcha.

 

[Eraserhead]

Wow. This was a super-long post (almost as long as the ones I make) that didn't even respond to what you quoted. The robot invasion has not fully taken over. If fast food becomes fully automated, and Amazon becomes fully automated, and retail checkout becomes mostly automated, and numerous other places become fully automated, a huge number of people will have to find other employment. With most lower-skilled jobs being removed, what will all those people do?

Up until now, they've moved from manufacturing to retail. From digging ditches into fast food. But, now, if you remove the floor they all went to out of necessity, where will they go from here? Not good. "Getting an education" and "gaining skills" will only go so far, with too many people fighting for the same jobs. It also means that mid-level jobs will start lowering pay as more people start fighting for them.

So, the question is: what's the plan for all these people?

I think if it really comes to that the government will have to ban robots.

I'm not so sure. The internet of things is blatantly going to be a non-starter.

 

[1458279]

Wow. This was a super-long post (almost as long as the ones I make) that didn't even respond to what you quoted. The robot invasion has not fully taken over. If fast food becomes fully automated, and Amazon becomes fully automated, and retail checkout becomes mostly automated, and numerous other places become fully automated, a huge number of people will have to find other employment. With most lower-skilled jobs being removed, what will all those people do?

Up until now, they've moved from manufacturing to retail. From digging ditches into fast food. But, now, if you remove the floor they all went to out of necessity, where will they go from here? Not good. "Getting an education" and "gaining skills" will only go so far, with too many people fighting for the same jobs. It also means that mid-level jobs will start lowering pay as more people start fighting for them.

So, the question is: what's the plan for all these people?



Okay, so an unsourced claim. Gotcha.

Wow, 1st you take the use of a subset of outsourcing as proof of formal educational achievement, then you make a wild (and still unsourced) claim about government pay, now you site an unsourced claim concerning the economic performance of the largest company in the history of the world. ... BTW, do you counter the claim concerning the largest company in the history of the world? ... Or is it just like your "you don't have a business degree because..." claim?

You trolls really should read a book on logic, unless you want to hide behind another ad hominem attack and call it right wing conspiracy while still not addressing the issue as to the validity of the point.

Concerning robots, try to un-internet the world. Try to un-gun the world. Not going to happen, foolish to try.

The vast majority of human sell their time to earn their keep, the value of their time will become near worthless. The plan should have been to retain benefit from past work, but we've gone the wrong direction and become so deep in debt that the entire economic future is at odds. We've simply kicked the can down the road far too long.

The timing couldn't be much worse with social unrest, moral decay, global debt making any solution unlikely to overcome these challenges. It certainly doesn't help that so many have no basic concept of logic and throw around statement that are completely wrong.

The government thinks they are fixing things by trying to make everything come out even, soon it will no longer matter. The robot routines that I'm working on will make them so adaptable and the programming so easy, people will never be able to compete.

I remember years ago when they talked about the cost of a robot working being around $3/hr... I'd expect that cost to drop quite a bit. Most of the designs will be merged into a few types and the APIs will become as common as mobile APIs. The usage will then advance as fast as the world of apps have advanced.

The nations with the least debt/GDP and/or highest GDP growth capacity should come out ahead. Cost of living will be a huge factor as well.

 

[Eraserhead]

Wow, 1st you take the use of a subset of outsourcing as proof of formal educational achievement, then you make a wild (and still unsourced) claim about government pay, now you site an unsourced claim concerning the economic performance of the largest company in the history of the world. ... BTW, do you counter the claim concerning the largest company in the history of the world? ... Or is it just like your "you don't have a business degree because..." claim?

You trolls really should read a book on logic, unless you want to hide behind another ad hominem attack and call it right wing conspiracy while still not addressing the issue as to the validity of the point.

Concerning robots, try to un-internet the world. Try to un-gun the world. Not going to happen, foolish to try.

The vast majority of human sell their time to earn their keep, the value of their time will become near worthless. The plan should have been to retain benefit from past work, but we've gone the wrong direction and become so deep in debt that the entire economic future is at odds. We've simply kicked the can down the road far too long.

The timing couldn't be much worse with social unrest, moral decay, global debt making any solution unlikely to overcome these challenges. It certainly doesn't help that so many have no basic concept of logic and throw around statement that are completely wrong.

The government thinks they are fixing things by trying to make everything come out even, soon it will no longer matter. The robot routines that I'm working on will make them so adaptable and the programming so easy, people will never be able to compete.

I remember years ago when they talked about the cost of a robot working being around $3/hr... I'd expect that cost to drop quite a bit. Most of the designs will be merged into a few types and the APIs will become as common as mobile APIs. The usage will then advance as fast as the world of apps have advanced.

The nations with the least debt/GDP and/or highest GDP growth capacity should come out ahead. Cost of living will be a huge factor as well.

While more saving should have been done it was hardly possible to have done so on a much wider scale.

And I doubt the Internet of things will get off the ground. No one wants to install windows updates on their fridge every month. And the manufacturers will never be prepared to offer the 15 years of software support that would be required to make it secure.

I also doubt any government will allow large numbers of people to have literally nothing to do and no money. There will be riots if that's the case so they won't do it.

 

[1458279]

I also doubt any government will allow large numbers of people to have literally nothing to do and no money. There will be riots if that's the case so they won't do it.

Greece.

It's like corruption, crime, and many other things, it just happens the governments only have so much power to direct things.

 

[1458279]

Already replacing human weather reporters. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...rter-anchors-worried/articleshow/50308175.cms

 

[Eraserhead]

Greece.

It's like corruption, crime, and many other things, it just happens the governments only have so much power to direct things.

Then civilisation will collapse. I can't really see it surviving without most of the population having something to do.

That or benefits will have to be sufficiently generous that people can play all the time.

 

[Dmunjal]

Okay, so an unsourced claim. Gotcha.

Here's a source that supports his claim.

The Only Six Stocks That Matter http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-only-six-stocks-that-matter-1437942926

 

[samiwas]

Wow, 1st you take the use of a subset of outsourcing as proof of formal educational achievement, then you make a wild (and still unsourced) claim about government pay, now you site an unsourced claim concerning the economic performance of the largest company in the history of the world. ... BTW, do you counter the claim concerning the largest company in the history of the world? ... Or is it just like your "you don't have a business degree because..." claim?

What in the living hell are you talking about? Subset of outsourcing as proof of formal educational achievement? A claim about government pay? Claims about the largest company? Are you sure you're quoting the right person? Because it sounds like you're just standing on the street corner shouting at people. In fact, I believe you are the one who threw out an unsourced claim, and followed up with "Well, I think I heard it on the radio somewhere."

The vast majority of human sell their time to earn their keep, the value of their time will become near worthless. The plan should have been to retain benefit from past work, but we've gone the wrong direction and become so deep in debt that the entire economic future is at odds. We've simply kicked the can down the road far too long.

Retain benefit from past work? As in, able to afford entire lifetimes based on what people have already done? You sound like FieldingMellish, throwing out all these intelligent-sounding catch phrases with little substance, and not actually explaining what you mean.

The government thinks they are fixing things by trying to make everything come out even, soon it will no longer matter. The robot routines that I'm working on will make them so adaptable and the programming so easy, people will never be able to compete.

I remember years ago when they talked about the cost of a robot working being around $3/hr... I'd expect that cost to drop quite a bit. Most of the designs will be merged into a few types and the APIs will become as common as mobile APIs. The usage will then advance as fast as the world of apps have advanced.

Right. Great. You're making awesome robots who apparently will take over most jobs. So, then what? All the people who no longer have jobs will do...what exactly?

Here's a source that supports his claim.

The Only Six Stocks That Matter http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-only-six-stocks-that-matter-1437942926

Behind a paywall. But, cutting and pasting the first sentence into google and getting some other results which seem to parrot this article don't support the claim that Apple is responsible for 20% of the entire growth. I'm ready to believe it, but I'm not just going to take the corner-preacher's word.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

And I doubt the Internet of things will get off the ground. No one wants to install windows updates on their fridge every month. And the manufacturers will never be prepared to offer the 15 years of software support that would be required to make it secure.

The Internet of Things is happening now. Sure, it could be stopped. But, more likely, it will roll out anyway, and, security will have to play catchup for the next 30 years. I'm not saying I agree with the irresponsible way some products are emerging. It is happening anyway, despite my misgivings.

I also doubt any government will allow large numbers of people to have literally nothing to do and no money. There will be riots if that's the case so they won't do it.

Any European government, perhaps?

 

[Eraserhead]

Any European government, perhaps?

Any government.

The people at the moment who don't have jobs long term are either the rich kids of Instagram or they are poor people with mental health problems and/or drug and/or alcohol addictions and/or benefit fraudsters, now they might act out and get arrested, but they aren't a threat to the state. (I suspect such people make up the vast majority of the long term unemployed which is why, despite loads of money spent to stop it, those people don't work)

The people who currently hold down jobs and work hard are a different beast. They aren't fundamentally broken and if try aren't given something interesting to do (even working in the supermarket you get to help customers and it keeps you occupied for 40 hours a week) they will get bored, and they are capable of organising (as they stay employed at the moment) and they will fight back.

Maybe we will all work three days a week like we were supposed to in the 1960s and I can see that working, but unless you're going to start handing out ********s of money to people on benefits I can't see the educated people sitting still with no work and no money. If I was going to be paid to sit around I'd probably need $100-150k a year to not get bored.

 

[Eraserhead]

The Internet of Things is happening now. Sure, it could be stopped. But, more likely, it will roll out anyway, and, security will have to play catchup for the next 30 years. I'm not saying I agree with the irresponsible way some products are emerging. It is happening anyway, despite my misgivings.

I think as soon as its proven they perve on pretty girls it's all over, but I'm happy to agree to disagree.

 

[1458279]

What in the living hell are you talking about? Subset of outsourcing as proof of formal educational achievement? A claim about government pay? Claims about the largest company? Are you sure you're quoting the right person? Because it sounds like you're just standing on the street corner shouting at people. In fact, I believe you are the one who threw out an unsourced claim, and followed up with "Well, I think I heard it on the radio somewhere."



Retain benefit from past work? As in, able to afford entire lifetimes based on what people have already done? You sound like FieldingMellish, throwing out all these intelligent-sounding catch phrases with little substance, and not actually explaining what you mean.



Right. Great. You're making awesome robots who apparently will take over most jobs. So, then what? All the people who no longer have jobs will do...what exactly?



Behind a paywall. But, cutting and pasting the first sentence into google and getting some other results which seem to parrot this article don't support the claim that Apple is responsible for 20% of the entire growth. I'm ready to believe it, but I'm not just going to take the corner-preacher's word.

Offshoring is a subset or type of outsourcing. The important part is that your use of logic in determining that I didn't achieve a college degree in business.

Retain benefit from past work: I paid my house off nearly 2 decades ago, I still use the same house and so I benefit from the work that I've done in the past. This would be inline with someone that saves for retirement and during retirement lives on the interest from past earnings. This is the difference between earned and unearned income.

I spend a great deal of time studying business, economics, and tech. I don't earmark every little bit of info in order to fend off trolls that doubt or challenge what is said. You can believe that Apple contributed 20% of the growth of the S&P over the last 5 years or not. You can believe that Apple doesn't even exist, your belief doesn't change the fact or the point.

What I got from that was that Apple gets most of it's profit from 1 product line and that 1 product line accounts for a HUGE amount of stock market gain and that it's entirely consumer driven in a saturated, high margin (for Apple) market that's also very competitive.

Further, the point that the market support is very narrow and that changes the price/earnings factor when you weight for actual market impact.

"corner-preacher", yet another ad hominem logical fallacy based on your own lack of understanding of what was stated?

Have you ever studied logic, or do you just run around and troll for fun?
Still waiting on the offer of proof concerning public vs private pay... But I guess it's not a double standard to bash someone else's offer of proof while never offering your own.

 

[nando87]

It's also a problem created by the EU and Ireland. No matter how Cook wants to spin this, the simple fact is that Apple has a tax haven in Ireland where supposedly its research is performed. Yet, for some reason, features and updates are always introduced in the US first, and the countries of the EU have to wait.

I like Apple in most regards, but in this regard Tim Cook is really trying it on. Is Apple tax haven legal? Yes. Is it immoral? Yes.

Talking about moral when related to money is absurd.

 

[samiwas]

Offshoring is a subset or type of outsourcing. The important part is that your use of logic in determining that I didn't achieve a college degree in business.

Okay, you seem like a very angry person, so blinded by your rage that you can't even keep straight what you're talking about. Where did I say anything about your degree? Where did I say anything about offshoring and what type of outsourcing it was?

I spend a great deal of time studying business, economics, and tech. I don't earmark every little bit of info in order to fend off trolls that doubt or challenge what is said. You can believe that Apple contributed 20% of the growth of the S&P over the last 5 years or not. You can believe that Apple doesn't even exist, your belief doesn't change the fact or the point.

Good for you. I can say I have a 13-inch penis and that women just show up at my door every night for fun. You can believe it or not. That doesn't change the fact or the point. But, in the end, it's just a claim that I threw out. A lot of claims are thrown out here in PRSI that are patently false. And in PRSI, when you make a claim as fact, it's expected that you back it up with actual data. Otherwise, it is simply that: a claim.

"corner-preacher", yet another ad hominem logical fallacy based on your own lack of understanding of what was stated?

No, based on these long-winded screeds which don't even respond to things that were actually said, but what you appear to have made up. Seriously...where did I talk about offshoring or your degree? Why on earth would I even care about your degree? I have a degree in Theatre Production and Design and am in the top 3-4% of income earners in the US. Who cares?

Have you ever studied logic, or do you just run around and troll for fun?

Asking for proof of a claim is trolling? Actually, if I'm not mistaken, throwing out unsubstantiated claims then telling people to find the proof themselves is considered trolling. But, thanks for playing.

Still waiting on the offer of proof concerning public vs private pay... But I guess it's not a double standard to bash someone else's offer of proof while never offering your own.

I will offer proof of that when you point out where I even said anything about public vs. private pay. I can't prove something I don't even think I said, and I almost always provide sources for things I do claim (usually, I try to supply multiple sources). Again, I think you are so worked up, you can't even keep straight who you're talking to. Calm down, bro.

 

[citizenzen]

Have you ever studied logic, or do you just run around and troll for fun?

Samiwas is a long-standing (penis reference?) contributor here in PRSI, and I can assure you that he doesn't troll for fun. He is just trying to get you to substantiate your claims with some form of proof, which is a common practice in this forum.

 

[Eraserhead]

Samiwas is a long-standing (penis reference?) contributor here in PRSI, and I can assure you that he doesn't troll for fun. He is just trying to get you to substantiate your claims with some form of proof, which is a common practice in this forum.

And it's actually required as per the rules.

 

[1458279]

Okay, you seem like a very angry person, so blinded by your rage that you can't even keep straight what you're talking about. Where did I say anything about your degree? Where did I say anything about offshoring and what type of outsourcing it was?



Good for you. I can say I have a 13-inch penis and that women just show up at my door every night for fun. You can believe it or not. That doesn't change the fact or the point. But, in the end, it's just a claim that I threw out. A lot of claims are thrown out here in PRSI that are patently false. And in PRSI, when you make a claim as fact, it's expected that you back it up with actual data. Otherwise, it is simply that: a claim.



No, based on these long-winded screeds which don't even respond to things that were actually said, but what you appear to have made up. Seriously...where did I talk about offshoring or your degree? Why on earth would I even care about your degree? I have a degree in Theatre Production and Design and am in the top 3-4% of income earners in the US. Who cares?



Asking for proof of a claim is trolling? Actually, if I'm not mistaken, throwing out unsubstantiated claims then telling people to find the proof themselves is considered trolling. But, thanks for playing.



I will offer proof of that when you point out where I even said anything about public vs. private pay. I can't prove something I don't even think I said, and I almost always provide sources for things I do claim (usually, I try to supply multiple sources). Again, I think you are so worked up, you can't even keep straight who you're talking to. Calm down, bro.

Opps, sorry, I grabbed the wrong quote. The quote was someone else and I didn't go back the to prior page.

Ok, so ignore the degree and logic stuff, that wasn't you

As for the issue of Apple being 20% of the gains over the last 5 years, it was probably a guest speaker for NBR or Cramer but I really don't keep track of all the sources.

Ok, I think this will support the point:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-27/stock-markets-ugly-truth-only-6-stocks-matter

"Six firms not account for more than all the $199B in market-cap gains in the S&P500."