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I noticed how nobody is talking about all the people that also use the roads and bridges without paying for them at all. Somehow Apple is the crook for using roads and bridges because they didn't pay more than they paid, but someone on welfare, food stamps, and section 8, uses the roads and bridges and they are NOT crooks.
 
Wow, man. Did your smoke detector go off while writing this? I can only imagine the smoke pouring out of your ears as you angrily pounded the keys, growling terms like "Socialist". You sound like one damn angry person!

Jesus this post is ridden with collectivism...

That's what a society is. If you don't like living in a society you are free to leave it. No one is keeping you or anyone else here. No society in the history of the world has existed as a truly free set of people able to do whatever the hell they wanted. Even in the first days of the US, it has never been fully free. Your vision of the world has never, and will never exist, because it would not work, and because it's patently stupid. So give it up, Nancy.

Like hell. They always spend more. You know, there was a time in this country's history when we had no income tax at all, and we experienced the highest rate of growth in the history of the world. Somehow, we managed to *eek* by without extorting half of the wealth generated by the private sector in this country.

Really? So, we had interstates, airspace, real national defense, education, environmental regs, etc etc etc etc...? And yes, we grew from nothing, which would make the rate seem high. The country is far more productive now, even after more than 100 years of income tax.

So your son got autism, and so you robbed and extorted enough people to make sure you could pay for the therapy bills? Or did you produce more economic value instead?

No. My income had gone down due to several factors, so I did not have as much coming in. Then when I was able to work on more projects, I had more income. And part of it was a company I freelanced for changing my payment status from W2 to 1099 while knocking $100 per day off my rate. And no, it had nothing to do with me not providing value. It's because they changed how they operated, and I got shafted. Because out here in the real world, that kind of things happen.

Point being, if the sources of your revenue cut them (in this case by gaming the tax system to cut off your revenue), you lose.

The purpose of government is not to produce economic wealth,

Never said otherwise. That's your addition.

The way government is funded today, the only way they get more money is to extort it from individuals at gunpoint, under the threat of imprisonment or death. That is an inescapable fact, and it is evil on it's face to anyone who is willing to be even partially rational.

Oh, you're one of those guys. Hahaha.

Anyways, as I have already covered, you obtained more money by providing more value, not by extorting it from others who created value because you "needed it" to pay for X.

And, as I have already covered, many corporations are gaming the tax system to avoid the amounts they should be paying. And you blame the government for it.

Again. Collectivism. Government has no business being involved in infrastructure. Privatize it and charge people to use it. Just like every other service ever. ...At least before government improperly stuck its nose in those businesses too.

So, wait...you'd rather have to pay for every road you drove on, rather than having the freedom to go wherever you wanted, whenever you wanted? THAT is freedom to you? What, would there be signs at every intersection giving you the price to go straight, left or right? Would I get a say in who got to buy the rights to charge me to drive on my own street? What a terrible, awful world you envision. But, then again, you're probably in that "profit for everything" mindset that pervades America these days.

Lol oh like hell. And don't tell that to Exxon, they're still waiting for their "Iranian oil" back. This department hasn't done much defending of any of America's interests in a very long time.

Then what the **** are we fighting for? And don't say freedom and post some picture of a crying eagle.

And again, even if you were right, which you're not, but even if you were, "We were doing better when we were extorting people, and violating their individual rights to a higher degree" IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION FOR EXTORTION.

Were we though? The country was kind of an environmental wasteland for a while there. And short of some robber barons, I don't recall stories of widespread wealth and prosperity in this country in the 19th century.

So it's your position that people weren't greedy before??

Did they avoid taxes by creating shell corporations in foreign countries like they do today in order to falsely attribute their business operations to that shell so that they can shuffle money around untaxed instead of paying their share of the country's services? Was there an income inequality even close to what it is today?

Because it sounds like you want more stuff at gunpoint.

Actually, I think guns are stupid, and only macho meatheads with something to prove, and law enforcement, carry them. Your "at gunpoint" argument is just something angry people like yourself like to throw in these conversations. No, actually, what I want is for corporations to have some semblance or a morality and to agree to pay their fair share towards the society which supports them. But, instead, we have greedy, soulless dickbags who extort whatever means they can to keep everything for themselves while depriving their country of revenue which would make it great like it was 50-80 years ago.

The point is that Apple is NOT treating their customers like fools, they're creating a product and appealing to people's reason by offering the product to them for purchase. And 90% of the value added in the smartphone space can be attributed to Apple, as is shown by the fact that they command 90% of the profits in the space, while EVERYONE else comprises the remaining 10%. The world is BETTER off because Apple exists, and just because they created more value than anyone else in the spaces in which they are involved, does not mean you should be entitled to a higher magnitude of extortion.

Doesn't mean they're entitled to a lower magnitude either, just because they can afford the team to game the system.

I don't know where you're pulling the stuff regarding how Apple treats its customers. Seriously...you guys are like Buzzword Thesauruses™, just throwing out as many of these catchphrase sentences as you can in one post.
 
I noticed how nobody is talking about all the people that also use the roads and bridges without paying for them at all. Somehow Apple is the crook for using roads and bridges because they didn't pay more than they paid, but someone on welfare, food stamps, and section 8, uses the roads and bridges and they are NOT crooks.

The majority of people who depend on government assistance sincerely depend on it. The fraud and error rates for welfare programmes are very low, both in the U.S. and the UK. In addition, the majority of people who receive food stamps live in working households (and plurality of individual recipients of food stamps are in fact children).

Regardless, comparing a multinational corporation, sitting on over $110 billion in net tangible assets, to a typical American household that depends on food stamps to feed their children because their job doesn't pay enough is a questionable comparison in itself.

They should just work as hard as Apple, right?
 
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The argument that government spending creates economic value is true, but you have to consider the value of what's produced by the original transaction. If a government worker is paid an amount of money and spends it, the spending creates economic value depending on what it's spent on. What's missing here is the economic value created by that government employee that the people paid for.

Some are involved in loss prevention like fire fighters, they don't make iPhones for other to buy, they put out fires so as to help prevent loss. A private sector employee can be let go if they don't create enough value to justify their pay.

If the government takes $1,000 from a taxpayer and pays it to a government employee, who's to say that the government employee added more economic value than the taxpayer would have created?

The government doesn't create wealth, they only take wealth from others and used it to regulate and other things.
 
The majority of people who depend on government assistance sincerely depend on it. The fraud and error rates for welfare programmes are very low, both in the U.S. and the UK. In addition, the majority of people who receive food stamps live in working households (and plurality of individual recipients of food stamps are in fact children).

Regardless, comparing a multinational corporation, sitting on over $110 billion in net tangible assets, to a typical American household that depends on food stamps to feed their children because their job doesn't pay enough is a questionable comparison in itself.

They should just work as hard as Apple, right?
We spent a 1/2 century and 22 trillion dollars on the war on poverty, we ended up with more people in poverty that when we started.
Able bodied people on welfare is the sign of a failed system. The system is creating poverty by trying to solve it.

Some people do need help, maybe it's 5 or 10% that for some reason can't produce value, that's nothing compared to the number on the welfare system today.

We found billions to help people in other nations as well as billions to resettle people from other countries here, yet we have homeless vets living on the streets. Something's wrong with how the system works.

Just give it some more time, the national debt and unfunded mandates will crush the system. The CBO has already stated that we'll need an additional $1 trillion per year to cover the cost increases of the unfunded mandates. That'll take about $5 trillion in GDP just to break even. This is expected in 2018, a few years of that should just about crash the system.

Maybe all those businesses see the writing on the wall and they are waiting for this ship to sink so they can start building the next ship. The house is burning to the ground, at some point it's time to start thinking about building a new one. It's well past the time for this nation to split up, we've been gridlocked for far too long.
 
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I think this story sums up a lot of the reality of these issues:

A professor told his class that all the grades would be pooled and averaged. The A students would end up getting the same grade as the F students and it would be an average of the whole class.

The results of the A student's work were in effect held back and held hostage by the F students. The F student had nothing to lose, the hard working and/or smarter A students had little reason to work hard.

The same kind of 'logic' used to allow some to get into college by padding their scores with hundreds of points. Then wondering why it only continues to get worse.

The battle is between equality of outcome vs equality of opportunity.

Suggesting that some aren't entitled to what they've earned, while others earn nothing are entitled to more.

I wonder if there'll ever be a limit as to how much someone is required to give to someone else. Are the rich required to provide swimming pools to the poor? What about air conditioning? What about cable TV? What about steak dinners? What about vacations to Disneyland? Is there any limit to what others are entitled to?

Is there any requirement on the other side? Do they have to at least try to get an education? Are they required to obey the law or lose their benefits? If there's a workforce shortage, would they be required to work?

I still see that some are reverting back to ad hominem attacks and restating an argument as something more extreme than it was stated. This is part of the reason this nation is gridlocked.
 
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We spent a 1/2 century and 22 trillion dollars on the war on poverty, we ended up with more people in poverty that when we started.
Able bodied people on welfare is the sign of a failed system. The system is creating poverty by trying to solve it.

No we haven't. Both the absolute and relative poverty rates have declined since large expansions in government welfare programmes.

Some people do need help, maybe it's 5 or 10% that for some reason can't produce value, that's nothing compared to the number on the welfare system today.

And there's your problem. This isn't hard fact or stats. This is your own prejudice believing that most of these people do not really need the support they are given.

We found billions to help people in other nations as well as billions to resettle people from other countries here, yet we have homeless vets living on the streets. Something's wrong with how the system works.

The veteran homeless rate has been reduced by a third since Obama took office. In that same time, spending on veteran homelessness has gone up by about threefold. That seems to be evidence of good results to me.

Just give it some more time, the national debt and unfunded mandates will crush the system. The CBO has already stated that we'll need an additional $1 trillion per year to cover the cost increases of the unfunded mandates. That'll take about $5 trillion in GDP just to break even. This is expected in 2018, a few years of that should just about crash the system.

The national debt is nowhere near historical highs. Unfunded liabilities are a silly thing to refer to for any serious length of time. All unfunded liabilities could be wiped out overnight through congressional action. They change daily, weekly, and yearly. Nobody should depend on the unfunded liabilities figures to work out the financial situation of the Government today.
 
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I think this story sums up a lot of the reality of these issues:

A professor told his class that all the grades would be pooled and averaged. The A students would end up getting the same grade as the F students and it would be an average of the whole class.

The results of the A student's work were in effect held back and held hostage by the F students. The F student had nothing to lose, the hard working and/or smarter A students had little reason to work hard.

The same kind of 'logic' used to allow some to get into college by padding their scores with hundreds of points. Then wondering why it only continues to get worse.

The battle is between equality of outcome vs equality of opportunity.

Suggesting that some aren't entitled to what they've earned, while others earn nothing are entitled to more.

I wonder if there'll ever be a limit as to how much someone is required to give to someone else. Are the rich required to provide swimming pools to the poor? What about air conditioning? What about cable TV? What about steak dinners? What about vacations to Disneyland? Is there any limit to what others are entitled to?

Is there any requirement on the other side? Do they have to at least try to get an education? Are they required to obey the law or lose their benefits? If there's a workforce shortage, would they be required to work?

I still see that some are reverting back to ad hominem attacks and restating an argument as something more extreme than it was stated. This is part of the reason this nation is gridlocked.

Except an academic exam is not the same as the income you earn. If you get an A grade in an exam, that is all your work above what guidance you receive from the professor (and everybody else received equal guidance from the professor). Nobody else has any claim on any part of your grade. You built that, to paraphrase Obama.

If you earn $100,000 however, then you didn't build that by yourself. The work you put in to earn this money was not the total amount of work needed for you to earn it, due to the government services that existed to allow you to earn it.

This is a very poor analogy that has nothing to do with paying taxes. Nobody is suggesting, certainly not in this thread, that the outcome of a progressive taxation system is to ensure everybody comes out equal.
 
Talking about moral when related to money is absurd.

Because when it comes to money, we need not be concerned about ethical, fair behaviour? If you believe this, all I can say is 'have you been sleep walking through the Great Recession?' Usually ethical behaviour is adaptive. It ceases being adaptive only when some exploit the ethical behaviour of others, and it seems to me that enough large corporations are exploiting the tax code to avoid paying fair tax that we risk it being considered 'normal'. If we continue on like we have been, those who own and manage the corporations will own everything, which is rather a recipe for damaging civil unrest.
 
The grade is the outcome of someone's work effort.
"If you earn $100,000 however, then you didn't build that by yourself."

What makes you sure someone didn't earn the $100,000 without the aid of the government?

Somehow you think the government built it? The government does nothing without the money taken from the people. It's taken either as debt or taxes.

Where to you get your info about the national debt?
What was the poverty rate before the war on poverty?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2014/01/23/why-we-lost-the-war-on-poverty/

We have a homeless crisis in LA, SF, NY, and HI. Several have declared a state of emergency.
I'd like to see your stats on homeless vets.

Are you just tolling for fun or do you have some facts. I'd like to see the facts about the national debt not being at a new high.

So the government can remove the unfunded mandates like social security? I guess they can, but what's your point? Right now they owe and it's a huge number. Are you suggesting they'll just not pay the $1trillion/year? You're suggesting they'll just default on it?

It's amazing how some people can just spit out facts about things like this, some are truly brainwashed into thinking everything is great. All the more reason to split up the country, this brainwashing is the cause of the gridlock.
 
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The grade is the outcome of someone's work effort.
"If you earn $100,000 however, then you didn't build that by yourself."

What makes you sure someone didn't earn the $100,000 without the aid of the government?

Somehow you think the government built it? The government does nothing without the money taken from the people. It's taken either as debt or taxes.

Where to you get your info about the national debt?
What was the poverty rate before the war on poverty?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2014/01/23/why-we-lost-the-war-on-poverty/

We have a homeless crisis in LA, SF, NY, and HI. Several have declared a state of emergency.
I'd like to see your stats on homeless vets.

Are you just tolling for fun or do you have some facts. I'd like to see the facts about the national debt not being at a new high.

So the government can remove the unfunded mandates like social security? I guess they can, but what's your point? Right now they owe and it's a huge number. Are you suggesting they'll just not pay the $1trillion/year? You're suggesting they'll just default on it?

It's amazing how some people can just spit out facts about things like this, some are truly brainwashed into thinking everything is great. All the more reason to split up the country, this brainwashing is the cause of the gridlock.

We all stand on the shoulders of others as we are more than hunter gatherers.
 
We all stand on the shoulders of others as we are more than hunter gatherers.
At what point as Apple paid enough in taxes to say they've bought enough roads for them to drive on?

In California we the people paid for the cost of a bridge in SF that dropped in an earthquake. This was done via sales tax. It was paid for by the people, we didn't build it, we paid people to build it. It's ours.

That bridge belongs just as much to someone working at Apple as it does someone that works at Burger King. The person at Burger King might not even use the bridge, but still paid for it. In fact, we're still paying the sales tax even though the bridge has been built for decades.

The fact is that 1% of the people in California pay 1/2 the taxes that are used to run the state. I pay property taxes for schools but have no children in those schools. I'm forced to pay for things I don't use.

At what point has Apple paid enough to cover the cost of the road they actually use? What about the people that have the same access to education, roads, etc, yet don't pay ANY taxes?
The producers and prior American built things from bridges to books that cost far more than they consume.

This is the problem, you have people paying zero taxes, while other pay millions. You're suggesting that Apple is stealing from America by not paying even more than what they pay now, yet you don't say a word about those that pay nothing.

This is why we need to split this nation up. Let the producers have their freedom to produce and let the socialist have their area. This happened after WWII in Berlin. They built a wall to keep people in and killed them if they tried to leave.

This argument will never end, some will always feel cheated because someone else has more than they do. There will never be a limit to what people feel they are entitled to. How much is a person entitled to?
 
At what point as Apple paid enough in taxes to say they've bought enough roads for them to drive on?

In California we the people paid for the cost of a bridge in SF that dropped in an earthquake. This was done via sales tax. It was paid for by the people, we didn't build it, we paid people to build it. It's ours.

That bridge belongs just as much to someone working at Apple as it does someone that works at Burger King. The person at Burger King might not even use the bridge, but still paid for it. In fact, we're still paying the sales tax even though the bridge has been built for decades.

The fact is that 1% of the people in California pay 1/2 the taxes that are used to run the state. I pay property taxes for schools but have no children in those schools. I'm forced to pay for things I don't use.

At what point has Apple paid enough to cover the cost of the road they actually use? What about the people that have the same access to education, roads, etc, yet don't pay ANY taxes?
The producers and prior American built things from bridges to books that cost far more than they consume.

This is the problem, you have people paying zero taxes, while other pay millions. You're suggesting that Apple is stealing from America by not paying even more than what they pay now, yet you don't say a word about those that pay nothing.

This is why we need to split this nation up. Let the producers have their freedom to produce and let the socialist have their area. This happened after WWII in Berlin. They built a wall to keep people in and killed them if they tried to leave.

This argument will never end, some will always feel cheated because someone else has more than they do. There will never be a limit to what people feel they are entitled to. How much is a person entitled to?

When they pay the same percentage of tax that a small business does.
 
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And there's your problem. This isn't hard fact or stats. This is your own prejudice believing that most of these people do not really need the support they are given.

Stats show some 35% are on welfare.

... And here's your problem, this is your own prejudice believing that most of these people do really need the support they are given.
 
Stats show some 35% are on welfare.

... And here's your problem, this is your own prejudice believing that most of these people do really need the support they are given.

The vast majority of the 35% are on pensions, studying or in work benefits. Are you against people working, studying or retiring?
 
When they pay the same percentage of tax that a small business does.
So one business can end up paying 1 dollar and another pay 900 billion and that would be fair?

Using this 'logic' what would happen if the government took in 100 trillion over what it needed? Would that money be given to the poor or returned to the producers?

Is the entitlement of the poor based on the performance of the rich? So if all the rich give up trying to be rich, the poor would be entitled to nothing?

All the more reason to split the nation up. What about 1/2 the nation sees is the right of the poor to take from the rich, they don't see the right of the rich to be rich.

What would it be like if the nation was split? The rich would all move to a new nation that had very low taxes, didn't double tax and they would become super rich. The other would tax themselves into complete poverty.

In a way, this is already going on because businesses like Toyota, Nissan and many others have left California. Nissan reported it was like getting a 20% raise when they left California. Now LA, SF have a homeless crisis.

I guess some lessons will have to be learned the hard way.
 
So one business can end up paying 1 dollar and another pay 900 billion and that would be fair?

Using this 'logic' what would happen if the government took in 100 trillion over what it needed? Would that money be given to the poor or returned to the producers?

Is the entitlement of the poor based on the performance of the rich? So if all the rich give up trying to be rich, the poor would be entitled to nothing?

All the more reason to split the nation up. What about 1/2 the nation sees is the right of the poor to take from the rich, they don't see the right of the rich to be rich.

What would it be like if the nation was split? The rich would all move to a new nation that had very low taxes, didn't double tax and they would become super rich. The other would tax themselves into complete poverty.

In a way, this is already going on because businesses like Toyota, Nissan and many others have left California. Nissan reported it was like getting a 20% raise when they left California. Now LA, SF have a homeless crisis.

I guess some lessons will have to be learned the hard way.

Yes if a business is more profitable than another it pays more tax. That's what Fairtax and other right wing flat tax systems are all about.

I can't believe you think it's ok for massive companies and small businesses to pay the same amount of tax in absolute terms.
 
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The vast majority of the 35% are on pensions, studying or in work benefits. Are you against people working, studying or retiring?
Again, where do you get these stats? I said welfare, students are allowed to get welfare (or at least that was the rule before).

As quoted above "And there's your problem. This isn't hard fact or stats."

Where's your source? How much is a vast majority, 75%? That would be over 75 million people.

You use an interesting version of 'logic' ... I state something about being against 35% needed welfare and you turn it into "are you against people working, studying or retiring?"

How about someone having 15 babies and no way to support them? That's clearly Apple's fault. Apple forced her to have 15 babies and must therefore pay for those babies.


I didn't get any help paying for college, why should they?

We really shouldn't worry too much about this. 75% of the people in American are paycheck to paycheck. All it'll take is one more bubble popping and it'll all come crashing down. The US debt load is too high, it'll never be paid back. The producers will use the TPP to setup businesses outside the US and any work needed to be done here will be done with robots. The value of human labor will be near zero.

Most of the world lives on less that $2/day, America is going to get a harsh dose of the reality of the system they've built.

Its going to be a tough lesson in economics.
 
Again, where do you get these stats? I said welfare, students are allowed to get welfare (or at least that was the rule before).

As quoted above "And there's your problem. This isn't hard fact or stats."

Where's your source? How much is a vast majority, 75%? That would be over 75 million people.

You use an interesting version of 'logic' ... I state something about being against 35% needed welfare and you turn it into "are you against people working, studying or retiring?"

How about someone having 15 babies and no way to support them? That's clearly Apple's fault. Apple forced her to have 15 babies and must therefore pay for those babies.


I didn't get any help paying for college, why should they?

We really shouldn't worry too much about this. 75% of the people in American are paycheck to paycheck. All it'll take is one more bubble popping and it'll all come crashing down. The US debt load is too high, it'll never be paid back. The producers will use the TPP to setup businesses outside the US and any work needed to be done here will be done with robots. The value of human labor will be near zero.

Most of the world lives on less that $2/day, America is going to get a harsh dose of the reality of the system they've built.

Its going to be a tough lesson in economics.

I presume you went to a private college and paid full fees. And that you didn't borrow any money from the government or from any government subsidised scheme. And I presume no one in your family helped pay for any college costs and you paid for it entirely out of money you personally earned.

With regards to people with 15 kids, they make up a tiny fraction of welfare recipients. And I'm not sure, beyond forced (or financially incentivised) sterilisations, you can do about it.

Do you support mandatory sterilisations for welfare recipients?
 
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I presume you went to a private college and paid full fees. And that you didn't borrow any money from the government or from any government subsidised scheme. And I presume no one in your family helped pay for any college costs and you paid for it entirely out of money you personally earned.

With regards to people with 15 kids, they make up a tiny fraction of welfare recipients. And I'm not sure, beyond forced (or financially incentivised) sterilisations, you can do about it.

Do you support mandatory sterilisations for welfare recipients?

The issue above was about limits, is there any limits to how much the government should collect?

I started working at 11, saved enough for a car before I was old enough to drive. Started living on my own at 17, spent the next 8 years in college and worked all but 1 month of that. The 1 month was because a business closed and I had to find other work. I actually did apply for welfare, but they wouldn't take a student, thankfully a job came thru soon enough.

None of the schools were private. Most of the education came from buying my own computer and many books, the school was only for getting a piece of paper that I thought I might need someday, otherwise it had almost no marketable value.

BTW, the whole college system is yet another scam. They control the supply, greatly oversell the value, cause massive debt. The whole thing can be replace with online learning like Kahn or iTunesU. The vast majority of my education didn't come from college.

The 15 kids might be extreme but having kids for money isn't. This is about personal responsibility.
If she doesn't have the IQ to function in society, she needs to get help. Why gives the government the right to force others to pay for her actions?

Why does the rights of 35% of the nation to hold back the rest of the nation override the rights of the rest to move forward?

How are her rights greater than my rights?

This is exactly why we need to split this nation up, let the welfare states have their own states, let the producers have their rights. The producers didn't cause these problem, no more than I caused Greece to go broke. Greece made it's own problems, the woman with 15 kids made her own problem, forcing others to pay for someone else's mistakes is just wrong.
 
The grade is the outcome of someone's work effort.
"If you earn $100,000 however, then you didn't build that by yourself."

What makes you sure someone didn't earn the $100,000 without the aid of the government?

Services that the government provides, and has provided continuously, 24/7 / 365 to every person resident in the USA, include national defence; the funding of law enforcement; the provision of utilities, whether that be through municipally owned corporations or through public-private partnerships; the subsidisation (or direct ownership and management) of roads and railways; the education and training of the next (and current) generation; the assurance of food safety and inspection (every slaughterhouse has full time federal inspectors); the regulation of food and drugs by the FDA; the subsidisation of hospitals (one third of the cost of new hospitals is met by federal funds); the courts and intellectual property services; and, likely if you're earning a six figure salary, the financial regulators that enforce integrity across the capital markets to prevent you from being defrauded.

Somehow you think the government built it? The government does nothing without the money taken from the people. It's taken either as debt or taxes.

Somehow I don't believe there exists any person who has not benefited from the above services (and currently benefits from them). Without them that person would not be able to survive for very long, much less make lots of money. I get the feeling that you hate it, but we really are in this together. Every man for himself doesn't work anywhere on the planet.

Where to you get your info about the national debt?
What was the poverty rate before the war on poverty?

Here's a chart showing U.S. federal gross debt as a percentage of GDP.

YdlAbOE.png


You'll notice it peaked much higher (and during a war that devastated half the planet). If the U.S. can recover from that then it can recover (and is recovering) from the worst global financial crisis (exacerbated by budgets that Bush signed) in history. There is zero chance of the U.S. going bankrupt. It is the sole manufacturer of U.S. Government debt, which is denominated in U.S. Dollar, which itself controls. It cannot go bankrupt.


The author of this opinion piece does not source his chart (and no official data is available for before mid 1960, which is when national data began to be collected, so I'm not sure how he's managed to chart it). In addition, the chart itself is very misleading. For instance, let's ignore the fact that Nixon dismantled the agency that administered the original welfare programmes (and at the same the amount payable by these programmes has decreased ever since the 60s). Instead, consider the fact that the poverty (and near poverty) rates for those 65+ has decreased substantially since 1966. Near poverty rates also decreased for every other group, albeit less so. Poverty rates for all age groups are lower overall than 1966, although are very dependent on economic downturns.

The relationship between social expenditures and poverty rates is well established. For instance, this paper has a nice chart that you can look at on p. 83.

We have a homeless crisis in LA, SF, NY, and HI. Several have declared a state of emergency.
I'd like to see your stats on homeless vets.

My source is Obama. He said it himself. But don't worry, it's been fact checked. Here's the report source itself if you'd like to see the numbers with your own eyes. Page 41.

So the government can remove the unfunded mandates like social security? I guess they can, but what's your point? Right now they owe and it's a huge number. Are you suggesting they'll just not pay the $1trillion/year? You're suggesting they'll just default on it?

Unfunded liabilities are a worthless measure. What I'm suggesting is that the Government can, at any time, pass a law that reduces benefits or increases revenues. For instance, Bernie Sanders supports a bill that would increase revenues to ensure Social Security is solvent until near the end of the century. This bill could be passed overnight and it would wipe out and change the unfunded liabilities you are referring to.

It sounds scary, and it makes for great headlines on Fox News, to say that the Government has unfunded liabilities up to some arbitrary year of 2070 of hundreds of trillions of dollars. But it's worthless talk that means nothing.

The fact is that 1% of the people in California pay 1/2 the taxes that are used to run the state. I pay property taxes for schools but have no children in those schools. I'm forced to pay for things I don't use.

Not only is this a terrible step back to your earlier posts about every man for himself, but the fact of the matter is that you do indirectly make use of schools, even if you have no children in them. You don't live in a bubble. Government services and private services are provided by other people. Frequently these require an educated workforce. We're talking doctors, nurses, police officers, judges, and, yes, the people that keep your workplace clean or the guy who cooks your lunch. These people will collectively make the country spin. Whether you like it or not, you cannot simply opt out of contributing to the education of the next generation.

At what point has Apple paid enough to cover the cost of the road they actually use? What about the people that have the same access to education, roads, etc, yet don't pay ANY taxes?
The producers and prior American built things from bridges to books that cost far more than they consume.

Are you suggesting that the more you make, the less you pay in taxes because of your lower dependence on the Government? This completely reverts back to the other point, that those people did not get to that position by themselves. Part of the contract you have with society is that to get to where you are, you have benefited from services from other people. It's only fair that you continue to fund the services that give opportunities to the next guy who comes along and replaces you when you retire.

This is the problem, you have people paying zero taxes, while other pay millions. You're suggesting that Apple is stealing from America by not paying even more than what they pay now, yet you don't say a word about those that pay nothing.

Very few people pay zero taxes. If you're talking about federal income taxes, then yes, about 47% do not pay federal income taxes. But half of those do pay payroll taxes. The remainder might not pay any further taxes on income (but perhaps others, such as sales and property), but you have to remember that this group is largely comprised of the elderly, the disabled, students, and the very poor. They are not just people who are sponging off the system.

This is why we need to split this nation up. Let the producers have their freedom to produce and let the socialist have their area. This happened after WWII in Berlin. They built a wall to keep people in and killed them if they tried to leave.

This idea wouldn't work. At the moment, it is largely the dastardly socialists in places like California and New York that are subsidising the "producers" in places like Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska, South Carolina, and Kentucky. These places all receive more from the federal union than they contribute. Places like California, New York, and Massachusetts all receive less than they contribute to the federal system.

Not only that but the whole point of the union is that it is a fully fledged transfer union. Wealth is redistributed across the union.

This argument will never end, some will always feel cheated because someone else has more than they do. There will never be a limit to what people feel they are entitled to. How much is a person entitled to?

It has nothing to do with being jealous of somebody else being rich. It's to do with fairness. Why should Apple, a multinational corporation, have the ability to strike (perhaps illegal) deals internationally and use these foreign jurisdictions to defer revenue, thus minimising its total U.S. tax liability, when small and medium sized domestic businesses obviously cannot do this?

Stats show some 35% are on welfare.

... And here's your problem, this is your own prejudice believing that most of these people do really need the support they are given.

Can you cite this number, please? What do you define as welfare? It may surprise you to know (p. 15) but even of those in poverty and near poverty, participation in government welfare programmes is quite low. For instance, whilst about 50% of individuals in poverty receive food stamps (mostly children), just 12% receive energy assistance; and only 8% receive housing subsidies. The reality is very different to this right-wing notion that millions of Americans are sitting on their couches sponging off the taxpayer.
 
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You are the one confused. Legality is simply the rule of law. Laws exist because a group of people called "citizens" agreed that their representatives/leaders should write those laws to regulate society. In this case, Apple is following (you would call it "taking advantage") of corporate laws written to regulate business.

Laws that are deemed unpopular by citizens eventually get changed or replaced. But until that happens, laws are the accepted rules that citizens/corporations have agreed to abide by.

To turn this into an "Apple is immoral" narrative is stupid, because morality is rarely agreed upon and is highly subjective. What morality do you want to use? Christian morals? Islamic Sharia moral values? Atheist morality? Greenpeace treehugger moral values? Or something totally different?


Oh God what nonsense. First, citizens never agree to let representatives write laws to regulate society. Not sure where you got that idea from. No 'representative' ever asked me what laws should be written. No one I know, or have ever met or heard about, has ever agreed to, let alone experienced this. Second, if laws are deemed unpopular, where do you think that unpopularity comes from? What do you suppose is the basis of that unpopularity? Could it possibly be that the law is not good? And if so, could we associate that sense of a law not being good with actually being bad, and downright wrong? And if wrong, could that stem from outrage? Perhaps even moral outrage?

Where do you think laws come from? All laws are based on morality. What else would they be based on? A coin toss? The mood lawmakers happen to be in at the time? Astrology? We can disagree with whatever the morals of the lawmakers are, (and I do most of the time) but that doesn't mean that laws are amoral and merely arbitrary customs, or some sort of ideal practical norms, or engineering rules based on physics. Laws come from a social sense of what is right, or ought to be the case, or some sort of fairness,....at least as politicians see them. People who are wealthy and powerful think that the laws ought to be for their benefit. That is their own morality, and that's the prevailing morality that guides most of the current laws on the books, many of which have been there for centuries.

There's no confusion on my part.
 
"Services that the government provides, and has provided continuously, ..."
Those that pay $1 in taxes get the same services as those that pay $100 billion in taxes. They get the same protection as everyone else. In fact, they have to earn a certain amount in order to be out of the wagon and start pulling the wagon.

If person A pays $100K in taxes, do they take $100K in benefit from that? What about the woman with 15 kids, person A has to pay for those 15 kids? Why didn't the woman with 15 kids get a job where she pay $100K in taxes and person A goes out and pumps out 15 kids? What if we all follow the lead of the baby machines and just pump out 15 kids each, who'll pay to feed them?
Why do some have to pay for the poor decisions of others?

This issue of the national debt:
So if what you say is true, why not raise the national debt to 1 million trillion dollars? If we can't go bankrupt, let's all just live like kings and charge it on the national debt. Do you really think there is no limit to how high the national debt can go?

At historically average interest rates, the interest on the national debt is over $1 trillion/year. This is what we pay to service the debt. Local cities like Chicago have a junk bond rating and are putting debt payments on another credit card. They can't pay their public employees pensions and are raising taxes anywhere they can. On a per capita basis, people in Chicago owe more than what they owe on the national debt.

What if the people in Chicago move away like what happened in Detroit? While the US population doubled since the 50's, Detroit's population was cut in 1/2. What happens when they leave?

Explain how if the US can't go bankrupt, why the debt would matter at all. What reason would we have for not raising it to 100X it's current level?

Homeless:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/8838...overnor-declares-state-emergency-homelessness

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-homeless-20151117-story.html

http://www.veteransinc.org/about-us/statistics/
  • Approx. 33% of homeless males in the U.S. are veterans.2
  • Veterans are twice as likely as other Americans to become chronically homeless.2
  • Veterans represent 11% of the adult civilian population, but 26% of the homeless population, according to the Homeless Research Institute (2007)

"Are you suggesting that the more you make, the less you pay in taxes because of your lower dependence on the Government?"
No, in fact the tax system is currently the more you make the more you pay in both percent and fixed dollars. If it were straight percentage, say 10%, you'd pay more if you made more. As it is, once you get into a higher bracket, you pay not only more because you make more, but you pay a higher percentage. This is why a small percentage pay most of the taxes.
The top 20% pay 84% of the taxes.
I understand they poor people still pay gas, property, sales taxes, etc... and that's not income based, but I'm just talking about regular income taxes.

As far as splitting, saying it wouldn't work is complete bull. This entire nation is based on splitting from England. The whole thing was setup as 50 states agreeing to something that just isn't working out. Those that wanted a capitalist have lost out to those that want a socialist nation. The nation is far too divided to be repaired, we'll never get out of this gridlock. We shift back and forth between left and right without making any progress.

If it would never work, why was it accounted for in the US constitution? IIRC, there are several way it can legally happen. Why would you suggest that it could never happen when it's actually perfectly legal to do?

More importantly, why would you care if 1/2 the nation left the union? Is it somehow important to you that people in other states follow the same path as you?

Remember, Berlin was split after WWII, it proved a pretty important point about how to govern people.

The upside is that we would then be able to end the gridlock. People in the new nation could go to a consumption tax system and no income taxes, strict welfare qualifications, free trade, simple regulation, etc... It'll either work or not work.

Why do some people insist that their beliefs are so great that everyone else must follow them? How many people in Europe have been killed over these issues? We've been trying this for some 200 years and it's never worked out, yet some keep forcing other to follow their beliefs, it usually end in brutal war and many people dying. How many died in the last civil war? Do you really want to go down that path again just so that your views can be forced upon others?

There hasn't be much united about the united states for quite a while.

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/354-percent-109631000-welfare
 
"Services that the government provides, and has provided continuously, ..."
Those that pay $1 in taxes get the same services as those that pay $100 billion in taxes. They get the same protection as everyone else. In fact, they have to earn a certain amount in order to be out of the wagon and start pulling the wagon.

And? What is your point? Does that detract from the point that the person who pays $100 billion got there with the help of those services (and who may or may not have used more of them, for instance the courts or the intellectual property regulators)? Are you saying you should receive more public services if you pay more? That defeats the point of having public services, which are extended to everybody for the greater good.

If person A pays $100K in taxes, do they take $100K in benefit from that? What about the woman with 15 kids, person A has to pay for those 15 kids? Why didn't the woman with 15 kids get a job where she pay $100K in taxes and person A goes out and pumps out 15 kids? What if we all follow the lead of the baby machines and just pump out 15 kids each, who'll pay to feed them?
Why do some have to pay for the poor decisions of others?

Most likely they do not take $100,000 in benefits. People who earn $100,000 are net contributors. People cannot simply choose to get a $100K job. Your question is a bad one. Most poor people do not choose to be poor. A better question would be why the woman decided to have 15 children that she could not afford. But the question is irrelevant because it doesn't matter why she decided to do so. The unfortunate reality is that she did it. And now there are 15 children that require care. It is not an option to leave these children to simply die off. The only option to deal with these very rare situations, that you are using only to further degrade welfare, is to provide support to raise these children.

"Baby machines" as you call them are not the norm for people on welfare. So luckily this dilemma is not one that must be met frequently.

This issue of the national debt:
So if what you say is true, why not raise the national debt to 1 million trillion dollars? If we can't go bankrupt, let's all just live like kings and charge it on the national debt. Do you really think there is no limit to how high the national debt can go?

In a fiat money system, yes. There is no absolute limit. The U.S. Dollar is backed by nothing but the full faith and credit of the U.S. Government. It can pay any debt that it incurs because it can always print more money. However, there is, of course, a limit on the size of the debt relative to your national income, meaning what you are proposing would be irresponsible, as you would then have to contend with financial instabilities caused by things like inflation.

Any country that controls its own currency and issues its own debt denominated in that currency can pay any debt that it incurs. That doesn't mean you can just borrow at irresponsible rates forever. It means that you are not at risk of a runaway meltdown when trying to service high levels of debt, such as in places like Greece, which does not control its own currency.

At historically average interest rates, the interest on the national debt is over $1 trillion/year. This is what we pay to service the debt. Local cities like Chicago have a junk bond rating and are putting debt payments on another credit card. They can't pay their public employees pensions and are raising taxes anywhere they can. On a per capita basis, people in Chicago owe more than what they owe on the national debt.

That is incorrect. I don't know where you got that information. Net interest payments on debt were $233 billion in 2014. The CBO projections are close to $1 trillion, $880 billion, but by 2024. I'm confident Washington will have passed proper budgets by this time to change the forecasts.

What if the people in Chicago move away like what happened in Detroit? While the US population doubled since the 50's, Detroit's population was cut in 1/2. What happens when they leave?

I don't know. That's up to Chicago to fix.

Explain how if the US can't go bankrupt, why the debt would matter at all. What reason would we have for not raising it to 100X it's current level?

I've already explained how it can't go bankrupt. This does not mean that the debt does not matter. It is simply a technicality that means the U.S. cannot go bankrupt (remember, bankrupt means being unable to pay debt, not simply "too much debt").

Homeless:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/8838...overnor-declares-state-emergency-homelessness

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-homeless-20151117-story.html

http://www.veteransinc.org/about-us/statistics/
  • Approx. 33% of homeless males in the U.S. are veterans.2
  • Veterans are twice as likely as other Americans to become chronically homeless.2
  • Veterans represent 11% of the adult civilian population, but 26% of the homeless population, according to the Homeless Research Institute (2007)
I'm unsure how this relates to what I posted. The homelessness figures in many places are bad. But for veterans, it has been cut by a third since 2009.

"Are you suggesting that the more you make, the less you pay in taxes because of your lower dependence on the Government?"
No, in fact the tax system is currently the more you make the more you pay in both percent and fixed dollars. If it were straight percentage, say 10%, you'd pay more if you made more. As it is, once you get into a higher bracket, you pay not only more because you make more, but you pay a higher percentage. This is why a small percentage pay most of the taxes.
The top 20% pay 84% of the taxes.
I understand they poor people still pay gas, property, sales taxes, etc... and that's not income based, but I'm just talking about regular income taxes.

My question was really asking you if that is the kind of system you would support (paying less tax if you earn more).

As far as splitting, saying it wouldn't work is complete bull. This entire nation is based on splitting from England. The whole thing was setup as 50 states agreeing to something that just isn't working out. Those that wanted a capitalist have lost out to those that want a socialist nation. The nation is far too divided to be repaired, we'll never get out of this gridlock. We shift back and forth between left and right without making any progress.

I used the word "socialist" sarcastically. Places like California and New York are not socialist states. The reason a breakup will not work is because the states that you would probably call "capitalist" are being supported by the ones you would call "socialist". If you broke these up then you would have a depression on your hands in those, mostly red, states.

If it would never work, why was it accounted for in the US constitution? IIRC, there are several way it can legally happen. Why would you suggest that it could never happen when it's actually perfectly legal to do?

It's not legal. A state does not have the right to unilaterally decide to leave the Union. This was decided about 150 years ago in a Supreme Court case concerning the Civil War.

More importantly, why would you care if 1/2 the nation left the union? Is it somehow important to you that people in other states follow the same path as you?

I have no real personal care. I don't even live in the United States. I'm just saying that a breakup would not work and would likely not stand up to legal scrutiny. States are autonomous and can run their own affairs. They can follow whatever path they want. Nothing is stopping them.

The upside is that we would then be able to end the gridlock. People in the new nation could go to a consumption tax system and no income taxes, strict welfare qualifications, free trade, simple regulation, etc... It'll either work or not work.

States that would most likely form this new nation are those currently highly dependent on federal funds. This new nation would crash before it got off the ground. And Texas wouldn't be able to save it. What's stopping you from moving to a place like Singapore?

Why do some people insist that their beliefs are so great that everyone else must follow them? How many people in Europe have been killed over these issues? We've been trying this for some 200 years and it's never worked out, yet some keep forcing other to follow their beliefs, it usually end in brutal war and many people dying. How many died in the last civil war? Do you really want to go down that path again just so that your views can be forced upon others?

I don't insist that anybody follow what I believe in. But we live in a system of governance by the people and that which follows the rule of law. You have the same right as I do to vote in candidates that share your view. If you can't get a majority then people don't want your system of government. It sucks, but since nobody lives in a bubble, it's the fairest and most peaceful way to run things. For instance, at the last election I voted for a party that would have renationalised our railways. Instead, I got a government that sold off another rail franchise, creating another private monopoly for 10 or so years.

I really wish I could get everything I want, but compromise with the other side and respecting the results of elections is part of the game.


I would expect this figure regardless (even though it is the number of households, not individuals). This figure includes various federal programmes of varying participation. I see little wrong with the figure. The vast majority of those figures relate to Medicaid, SNAP, and the Women, Infants, and Children Program. These are people (many recipients are children) who are extremely poor and are provided services for healthcare and food. They are not people who sit on the couch and buy 50" televisions. What is so bad about these programmes, especially when their fraud and error rates are low?
 
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I presume you went to a private college and paid full fees. And that you didn't borrow any money from the government or from any government subsidised scheme. And I presume no one in your family helped pay for any college costs and you paid for it entirely out of money you personally earned.

With regards to people with 15 kids, they make up a tiny fraction of welfare recipients. And I'm not sure, beyond forced (or financially incentivised) sterilisations, you can do about it.

Do you support mandatory sterilisations for welfare recipients?

Okay I'll bite on your last question. Yes. If you are not responsible enough to control your reproductive habits, then guess what? When you show up for your welfare check you also get a depo shot. You also take a drug test. Welfare is to offer a hand up, not a hand out. The intent it to provide you with financial assistance until you can go it alone, not become a depend of the state.
 
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