Tim Cook Calls Chromebooks 'Test Machines', Discusses Testing at Hour of Code Event

[mi7chy]

That is a gross over-generalization. I don't regularly google as I code, neither do the other professional developers that I work with. It certainly isn't a "fundamental" tool for us. But we'll do that on the rare occasion. That's because we're experienced and proficient.

I think it's gross over-generalization to pretend that people memorize everything. Any new library, function, command, etc. has to be researched at least once before they're used often enough to develop into memory. The people who claim to know everything usually don't. With that said, I believe it's more important to know the core fundamentals and concepts at heart over memorizing the minor stuff.

 

[sracer]

I think it's gross over-generalization to pretend that people memorize everything. Any new library, function, command, etc. has to be researched at least once before they're used often enough to develop into memory. The people who claim to know everything usually don't.

Where did I say or imply that people memorize everything?

With that said, I believe it's more important to know the core fundamentals and concepts at heart over memorizing the minor stuff.

You imply that those are mutually exclusive. Experience has shown me that both are vital.

 

[Benjamin Frost]

Tim, in his typical slow speaking style, has dumbed down a very important point that could use further elucidation -- maybe more than can be done in this forum. There are things where rote learning approaches are necessary and the most efficient. In sports, for example we practice over and over to get what is referred to as muscle memory. Of course this is only one part of what is needed and any system that relies solely on rote learning will be deficient. Creativity is important in that it allows the mind to wander and wonder. This is less efficient but can produce unexpectedly positive results. Remove the rote acquired knowledge and it becomes less predictable or efficient. Bottom line is that we need to memorize things like our multiplication tables (which so few seem to be capable of these days); we need to understand the principles involved in things; we need to understand the history of things so we know what has been tried, what has succeeded, what has failed and why. With all of this, we need to allow creativity to flourish; without all this, I would argue that creativity diminishes.

Excellently put.

It's the same in music. It's great to be able to improvise, as it helps to spark the imagination, but to get to that stage, you need to learn your scales and arpeggios and understand the building blocks of harmony; that involves many hours of repetition and learning by rote. You can't reach creativity without the rigorous application of learning from the past and studying past masters. It was the same for them, too.

 

[JM]

I never said it would. If you read the post I was replying to, you would see that the point I was making was that creativity should be valued over teaaching to the test.

But, if you want to go there, an iPad could certainly help in this arena. Why not have a solution where you could bring up a map of an area where you want to build a bridge, then be able to draw on the map, via finger or Apple Pencil, how a bridge with on and off ramps would look. You could illustrate lanes and how they could be adjusted to accommodate traffic at various times of the day. You could show how a de-icing solution could be sprayed on a bridge during bad weather. An iPad would allow you to do this on the fly, without having to log on to someone's computer and trying to show them on a non-touch based screen. You could beam the image to a projector via AirPlay. So, I guess an iPad could get you where you want to go with this.

Testing is important, and bridges got along just fine before computers. But fair enough.

anyways, I was up late last night and feeling especially silly, entertaining myself.

 

[JM]

I disagree on this point. The ability to recall facts on-demand from memory are the building blocks to increasing wisdom (knowledge applied). If a person needs to google every tidbit of information then it becomes more difficult and less effective to piece fundamental facts together to generate hypotheses, experiment, and draw conclusions.

Critical thinking skills of "digital natives" has been greatly diminished by the shift from "knowing the facts" to "knowing who to ask for the facts". The dependence on external sources for basic knowledge means that when a person is separated from those sources they can't function... vapor-lock of the brain.

Fewer minds are creating the higher-level functions that will be used by the masses. See my previous post on the "do-it" button phenomenon. Basically, a generation of people (admittedly a very broad generalization) have been raised who don't understand the fundamental concepts required to accomplish certain things in a graphics program but instead rely on specialized buttons that simply "do-it". This is why apps like Photoshop have become more popular and indispensable to many who aren't professionals. (that is just an example, but it cuts across society in general).

Cook is doing his job as the CEO of a company that has no viable alternative... attempt to reframe the debate to suit the products that the company offers.

Yup. My millennial butt has to google everything because I played too many video games and can't recall jack.

I'm trying to get back to normal human status, though; if I fail I'm going to become a flying unicorn.

 

[macsmurf]

That is a gross over-generalization. I don't regularly google as I code, neither do the other professional developers that I work with. It certainly isn't a "fundamental" tool for us. But we'll do that on the rare occasion. That's because we're experienced and proficient.

Really? I would guess that I google stuff at least three times a day, and I see the same in the developers I've worked with. My typical colleague is a CS graduate with more than a decade of experience.

Here's a couple of examples of Google searches I've done recently:

Are MIME types case-sensitive
Non-capturing group syntax

 

[jeremiah256]

To quote a different 'cook': "The food's brown, hot, and plenty of it." - City Slickers.

That's what Chromebooks bring to the table. Nothing fancy. They are simple, yet good enough to get the job done for most school students and the average consumer.

 

[Mums]

Ain't that the truth, ESPECIALLY since Leo couldn't read. Preach it, Mum-Mum.

Okay Jay-Jay.

 

[MH01]

All software developers Google as they code. Google is pretty much a fundamental tool of the trade.

They Google when they need to, majority of coding comes from experience and repetition. I'll only look something up if I have not done it before.

 

[macsmurf]

They Google when they need to, majority of coding comes from experience and repetition. I'll only look something up if I have not done it before.

...and virtually no memorisation.

Anyway, I think we agree that Cook's argument is obvious BS.

 

[AlliFlowers]

We need people in society to "memorize for the test". Your professors are only speaking about architecture students, not doctors.

Really? So you are going to go to a doctor and tell him where it hurts so that he can Google what organs might be in that area of your body before he can begin to narrow down what your problem is? No thanks.

Memorization is a skill required for every single job, from slinging fries (memorize where the supplies are kept and how long you keep the chips in the oil), to medicine (as stated above), to engineering, to architecture, to...well...everything.

Memorization is a big part of the learning process. You learn/memorize new vocabulary that you should continue using every day and not just forget after taking a test.

 

[AustinIllini]

Really? So you are going to go to a doctor and tell him where it hurts so that he can Google what organs might be in that area of your body before he can begin to narrow down what your problem is? No thanks.

Memorization is a skill required for every single job, from slinging fries (memorize where the supplies are kept and how long you keep the chips in the oil), to medicine (as stated above), to engineering, to architecture, to...well...everything.

Memorization is a big part of the learning process. You learn/memorize new vocabulary that you should continue using every day and not just forget after taking a test.

There are a handful of things to "Memorize" as a doctor, but most modern doctors use a proprietary database type application which gives them tips in tricky situations.

That being said, doctors are grilled and grilled and grilled throughout medical school and residency so they don't have to "memorize", they just know what they need to do.

 

[AlliFlowers]

What in the blue blazes do you think all that grilling is?! It is rote memorization. Some Lovers Try Positions That They Cant Handle.
scaphoid
L: lunate
T: triquetrum
P: pisiform
T: trapezium
T: trapezoid
C: capitate
H: hamate

It's rote memorization. Without those basics (that have to be memorized), no database will help because you'll never get to the "tricky situation."

There are a handful of things to "Memorize" as a doctor, but most modern doctors use a proprietary database type application which gives them tips in tricky situations.

That being said, doctors are grilled and grilled and grilled throughout medical school and residency so they don't have to "memorize", they just know what they need to do.

 

[mi7chy]

Really? So you are going to go to a doctor and tell him where it hurts so that he can Google what organs might be in that area of your body before he can begin to narrow down what your problem is?

I've seen many doctors refer to materials. Some have these little booklets that they whip out to look up info. I don't expect them to memorize everything but at least know what to look for.

 

[AlliFlowers]

I've seen many doctors refer to materials. Some have these little booklets that they whip out to look up info. I don't expect them to memorize everything but at least know what to look for.

If you never memorized the basic material, they won't even know what to look up in that little booklet.

 

[mi7chy]

If you never memorized the basic material, they won't even know what to look up in that little booklet.

That's really stretching it to support your argument. The discussion is not about knowing basic info which I'm confident any MD knows but the expectation of being a walking library. Anyhow, I'm done wasting my time.

 

[Larry-K]

I've never even used a Chromebook, but when a friend asked me if he should get his daughter a Mac or a PC laptop for school, I told him to look at one.

Now every time he sees me he thanks me for that, so I guess it worked out. His daughter seems smarter than either of us, and she seems perfectly happy with it.

 

[Fanaticalism]

I have a scenario.

You go to a Dr who every time you ask a question he refers to his "booklet"
You go to a Dr who every time he asks a question,he answers it,and then you see all the medical awards he's won.

Memorization is about capacity to learn. Creativity and memorization together dictates level of execution.

We need to stop being blinded by these companies who are just trying to sell us stuff and being so loyal by blindly defending them and taking it as gospel. Tim cooks statement was pure ignorance. What you can learn on an iPad is no different from what you learn on a computer and a mouse. The difference is an iPad and a Chromebook cost the same to make but one makes a boat load of margin and the other doesnt. I'd be upset too if they weren't choosing my product cuz having them in schools is great for short and long term growth. You get immediate revenue as well as a establishing a culture within those demographics.

 

[Kabeyun]

Yes he does. There's an app for that: iBooks.

No, he doesn't. iBooks does not replace a library. Go to one. Browse through books there, borrow a few for free, take a course there or go with your kid to a storytelling there, discuss a project with a research librarian there, and then post how that stacks up against iBooks. iBooks has its place. Replacing your library isn't it.

 

[ronntaylor]

I know it's last minute, but the Code Crew Meetup has an Hour of Code: Free Intro to Programming Workshop in NYC tomorrow. You simply sign up and they'll post the location shortly. It's free and (usually) convenient.

 

[9081094]

Chromebook fills a void as iOS devices and such. No need to be a hater Tim.

He sees a threat for his milking

 

[DoctorDoctor]

He sees a threat for his milking

lol. You dug up an old one didn't you.

 

[9081094]

lol. You dug up an old one didn't you.

That's right. But one thing hasn't changed unfortunately: Tim Cook keeps milking.