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People like YOU are part of the problem.

People that say things like this don't care about the truth, they only care about slamming Apple. Apple is doing the most of any company, and openly addressing the issues. All other companies are mum about this, and the media doesn't attack any other manufacturer with the venom they attack Apple. The reason is clear - say 'Samsung employees have poor working conditions', people go.... so? next story. But say it about Apple, and people read the article and are all over it.

I think Apple is the only company i know that puts emphasis on the materials and recyclable quality and environmental factors, they even mention it in the keynotes. i think they do quite a bit for the workers too, which in my opinion Apple need not worry about, as its upto Pegatron or foxcon to employ 1000 or 1miliion to build iPhone. So, the manufacturing companies are to be blamed for it not Apple. But i'm dead sure if they (BBC and crew) hadn't mentioned Apple or iPhone in their documentary, it might not have considered worth Airing too. So, in other words, we should praise Apple for even this.

And also, i would recommend BBC to look into our game developing world too, i mean, we work overnight too. please make some documentary on us too.
 
Why isn't pressure put on these factories and the Chinese government? The problem exists with these people, not Apple.
So how do we put pressure on the factories? One way is to not purchase any products that are manufactured in those factories. This is likely to hurt Apple (and other companies who put their names on these factories' unethically produced product) as a side effect, but it can't be helped. Innocent Apple is unfortunately, Apple happens to be the middle man between the factories that make the products, and the consumers. It's not Apple's fault that the real manufacturers are abusing their workforce, but it's also not our fault that Apple happens to be one of the companies that puts their name on these factories' products.

It's between us and the offending companies. Apple doesn't have any responsibility, but they'll have to quietly deal with any lost revenue due to lost sales when people decide they don't want to buy unethically produced electronics.
 
I love Apple and use many of their products and services. I am grateful for what they do. But I am also thankful to live in Germany, where some of the best products in the world are made without resorting to international slavery. UK and USA don't seem to be able to produce anything without racial segregation and slavery, but the German integrated approach works. Now we have Apple killing domestic companies working on Gorilla Glass to favour Asian ones. A good strategic move to make sure that in the future their employees will be treated as robots. And yet there are many Apple fans on this forum screaming for Apple's right to use slavery. Most of these people probably never worked more than 5 hours with our browsing internet and drinking some Cappuccino. They would never survive the Chinese working environment and yet they love to play tough on a forum justifying Apple's most disappointing problems. These people commenting would probably be among the first ones attempting suicide in Chine, but they can comment comfortably in California on NY and play tough. I don't care about them because they will be replaced soon but this attitude doesn't help Apple. It's like giving more drugs to a junky. I would prefer to see Apple face the problem and fix it.
 
I think Apple is the only company i know that puts emphasis on the materials and recyclable quality and environmental factors, they even mention it in the keynotes. i think they do quite a bit for the workers too, which in my opinion Apple need not worry about, as its upto Pegatron or foxcon to employ 1000 or 1miliion to build iPhone. So, the manufacturing companies are to be blamed for it not Apple.
I agree. If I boycott products made by Pegatron or Foxconn, it's because I'm angry at what THEY are doing, not because I'm angry at Apple. Apple is just the innocent middleman who is being harmed by my desire not to buy products made under unacceptable working conditions, and the factories' desire to overwork and underpay their workforce. As you say Apple isn't really responsible. They won't make as much money from me due to the misdeeds the factories they outsource to. But their hands are pretty much tied, so they'll just have to live with the consequences of what the factories do.
 
Of course he would be.. Even if it were true, Tim would still say that...

Because companies want to not admit the full truth...

However, I do think BBC needs to get their facts straight first before reporting.


Some stuff, where is was mean about "Apple customers line up outside of Apple like followers..." and "No one would a piece of technology gorgeous" I actually believe that

It's like every new product their must be huge lines..... with no exception..

Were their any new products without a huge line ? To the degree, I can understand an engineers saying this, only because they put allot of hard work, so why shouldn't u be thankful ?

Although, just saying this about technology alone, just doesn't make it feel right..

Whichever way you look at it, it does pay off in the end.. Because Apple gets all the attention.. even from the BBC :p
 
He understands perfectly. He understands that it's very easily to delegate blame, especially when the people impacted are from a different country and their appalling standards of living can be dismissed as cultural or standard.

He understands that Apple aren't treating people like that, but Apple has the most clout to change that.

You know perfectly well that most of the people here doesn't give a damn about those poor people but are just finding a new excuse to bash Apple over something that's not Apple's fault.
 
The "but other companies are worse" is an old and dilapidated argument. Retire it already.

The argument is that all company work in the SAME MARKET. Apple has more money, and paying more already, anything else puts them eventually at a competitive disadvantage long term and affects their stock. That's it.

That they have loads of cash for 3-4 years is just a blip in tech history and lets not forget they were close to being kaput in 1996-1997. Plenty of companies with huge profits once are now dead or dying,

The argument also is that by saying Apple's conditions are horrendous, your calling all non first world conditions slave labor and project your own notion of horrendous on to them. That's the kind of condescension that doesn't get you any sympathy from the "victims" themselves. Try it on them before taking up their "cause"... Most of the people working there come from truly horrendous conditions in the countryside and know the difference.

Do you know that one of the reason a lot of the workers wind up in huge dorms under the thumb of the factories is that they can't get residency permits to actually live in the cities. That's one thing that depresses their wages somewhat since their not actually living in the high wage area around them. It is also bad for employee morale since they can't be with their family.

That's not Apple's fault; but, the China's fault. If you want to improve their conditions, you could ask the US government to put pressure to change this; I'd expect that this won't make much difference though since China still imprisons dissidents despite the US's meek objections...

BTW, If you truly want to be live your words, don't buy anything fabricated in similar or worse factories, or with material from those mines, or coming from countries with oppressive governments with worse conditions than Apple (essentially 99% of factories, mines, farms in Asia and Africa). I'm betting you'll live a really sparse life... Maybe you won't even have a house over your head, or a car... Any other thing just makes you a bigger hypocrite even than Apple.

I'm going to be that YOU won't do it; because you like your comfort built on those "victims" and are only offended when it suits you, or when the "offender" suits you.

Most people in China prior to 1980 were living in abject poverty with famines a regular thing and people dying much younger. Its our "dirty" money and capitalism and us that looks to get the best bang for its buck that got them, and many countries there, out of the hole. That dirty word for the ultra-left and ultra right : globalization. Globalization on the whole decreases disparities in wealth between countries (while often increasing it inside countries).

It uses the fact that people in Asia in Africa were willing to work for less (often because they could live with less) to THEIR advantage (as a whole, if not at the micro level). Money sadly is not distributed evenly inside countries when it gets there.

What we most of all watch out is not per say Apple's factories, but the factories that produce the less sexy, but plentiful products that we buy at places like Wallmart or Targets. These are the factories and yes true sweatshops were the masses of Asia work. The building in Bangladesh were 1000 people lost their lives is a prime example. Those hundreds of thousands of factories with no scrutiny at all are those that should get the attention of the BBC and others because that'S were the true horror show is. But, of course, its not Apple, a big brand, so they get no attention despite the 1000s of losses, almost nothing has changed in those bottom rung factories.
 
Human exploitation of millions, lingering slavery, to make some super-ultra-rich. Obscene.
 
So how do we put pressure on the factories? One way is to not purchase any products that are manufactured in those factories. This is likely to hurt Apple (and other companies who put their names on these factories' unethically produced product) as a side effect, but it can't be helped. Innocent Apple is unfortunately, Apple happens to be the middle man between the factories that make the products, and the consumers. It's not Apple's fault that the real manufacturers are abusing their workforce, but it's also not our fault that Apple happens to be one of the companies that puts their name on these factories' products.

It's between us and the offending companies. Apple doesn't have any responsibility, but they'll have to quietly deal with any lost revenue due to lost sales when people decide they don't want to buy unethically produced electronics.

The problem is that those factories are in fact a much better deal for the workers than the truly bad factories. There is a lot judging from a far, and with a first world point of view, here... The first thing you should look at, before even banning Apple from your life, is were the hell does your clothes and all that rubbish at Wallmart and dollar stores comes from... Those are the ones that people in China really try to steer clear from because THEY know that those factories are REALLY BAD.

BTW, the working conditions in those factories are much better than the working conditions my father's father lived with in the 1930-1950 in Canada. That's not a long time ago. We build most of history on much much worse conditions than that and yet expect the people there to be offended because those people don't have our current perspective of what we consider appalling. Those workers come from the countryside were conditions ARE appalling and famine widespread just 30 years ago. For, them, Apple factories are a huge step up, yet we call them quasi slave!! Many would be insulted by our views if we dared asked them about it.

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Human exploitation of millions, lingering slavery, to make some super-ultra-rich. Obscene.

Get rid of all your Asia or Africa built/extracted thing or desist the hyperbole. That's it. I'm guessing you won't and just love talking big.
 
The problem is that in a complete laissez faire economy, A corporation would have no incentive to provide fair and safe workplace enivronments.

By pressuring Apple directly, who is one a very large, prominent and visible client fo these factories, you can hopefully push change from the outside. If Apple's bottom line starts to hurt because people had enough of this corporate behaviour, Apple might help force the factories to change, or help bring about labour law changes. I'd like to believe that Pegatron / Foxxconn would take a serious step forward if Apple were to tell them "we wont do business with you till you fix yo ****".. or "we're willing to pay you X% more for every improvement to workplace safety".

So yes. Apple isn't responsible or directly capable of enacting laws and labour standards. But they aren't powerless to help

That won't change ONE THING, for the millions of factories that sell less sexy product that fill your house and will maybe give you a warm fuzzy feeling of having done a "good thing". That's all this is in the end.Most of the environmental and societal advocacy has close to zero impact on the lives of people abroad or even at home. Its a lot of self patting to give yourself a good conscience despite nothing really changing on the whole (in the whole industry).

Apple despite its volume is just a drop in the bucket of Asia manufacturing. You'll affect more people if people stopped buying $5 T shirts, yet the huge uproar that happened post the Bangladesh building crash has subsided and its now business as usual.

People will continue buying Apple products or their $1 dollar socks, because lets face it, outrage is cheap, just like most products we buy from there... We don't really give a crap in the end. That's the fact of the matter. Its all about us, not them.
 
I look for alternatives as much as I can. I know you wont believe me, but it's not like I care about that. If everyone would seek out alternatives, then maybe there would be a chance for change.

Give me the brand of your tv, your microwaves oven, your dishwasher, your fridge, your computer, your phone, maybe electronic components of your car, and I could go on and on..... quite sure they are made with components build and assembled in China or similar countries, by poorly treated manpower.
But BBC doesn't care because Apple is a much better target for audience.

So no, at the end you don't really care.

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Would trust the BBC rather than Cook, Jobs, or another corp ceo. They are (just like politicans) natural liars.

Journalists seeking for audience are even better liars than politicians, because they don't even need to actually prove their accusations.
 
Most people in China prior to 1980 were living in abject poverty with famines a regular thing and people dying much younger. Its our "dirty" money and capitalism and us that looks to get the best bang for its buck that got them, and many countries there, out of the hole. That dirty word for the ultra-left and ultra right : globalization. Globalization on the whole decreases disparities in wealth between countries (while often increasing it inside countries). /QUOTE]

...and you would think that china invented everything that they have with the way the behave towards the west that bailed them out with trillions of dollars wort of industrial base.
 
apple needs regulations to tell them who to do business with? apple needs regulations as a guideline on what kind of treatment and conditions factory workers should be subjected to?

big business crying out for more regulation. strange

Take your head out of the sand: every single Chinese factory are the same. If not Foxconn, would be someone else....
Blame China for that, not Apple.

what lies or agenda have you found in your endless consumption of bbc news?

Are you really that naive? Never heard about advertisement on tv channels? Put Apple and a scandal on the same news and you have a scoop.
 
Who cares? We're all going to buy their products either way. You could make me watch a 5 year old piece my iMac together while being beaten every time he messed up and I'd still buy it. So would 90% of you. At least I admit it.

Once I'm aware of what is going on there is a limit. Based on that example no.

Of course the best way to test someone would to say all their tech is made like your example and see if they care enough not to buy.

I would hope most of us would say no yet we want what we want more often then not. The moment we look too much into anything we buy none of us would buy half the items we do.
 
In other news, CEO of large company doesn't like a news report painting company in bad light.

True or not, how else would/should he respond?!

More likely CEO of a large company doesn't like a news purposely twisting truth in order to paint company in a bad light.
 
I'd like to know when Apple is going to reopen American factories to produce Apple products, instead of relying on a single-source factory in a country that doesn't respect intellectual property rights. It is a very bad idea to rely on a factory that's thousands of miles away, in a region that can be disrupted, across shipping lanes that can be threatened, and not at least have a backup solution in the United States that can be activated within a week. Millions of Americans looking for good jobs, factories in major American cities sitting abandoned, China's military ambitions expanding, and yet American companies continue to outsource to China while not investing in alternative locations. Human rights in China notwithstanding, this is a short-sighted and potentially-fatal mistake to be relying on factory production that is located only in China.
 
Apple is keeping standards low? Based on what? An unaudited BBC program? Apple might be the biggest tech company based on market cap but a company like Samsung sells way more consumer electronics/appliances than Apple does. Why aren't people asking Samsung to take the lead?


Apple boast about their factory certifications, etc. but it seems to be a load of bollocks (why would it be true, it would reduce their profits).

Let's be honest: Apple couldn't give a crap about the environment, or the people who work for it. It's a business, Apple exists to make money to please the stockholders (of which I am one BTW).
 
Yet you still chose to own Apple products.

oh man you really got him/her. is this 5th grade reasoning the best you got?

this is an industrial problem and the leaders should set an example. and logically you start from the top.

many people like apple products but want the company to improve.

Take your head out of the sand: every single Chinese factory are the same. If not Foxconn, would be someone else....
Blame China for that, not Apple.

Are you really that naive? Never heard about advertisement on tv channels? Put Apple and a scandal on the same news and you have a scoop.

first of all you didnt answer a single question i asked of you but just replied with answers

who is forcing apple to to business in china (btw it focused on pegatron not foxconn)? are you saying there is not a single factory in china where standards are considerably better? are you saying companies that make tens of billions of profits a year and have a cash reserve so big its beyond comprehension do not have the power to improve standards if they wanted to?

are you seriously saying that big business needs regulations so it does not subject its workers to unacceptable conditions?

the only ones that are keeping there heads in the sands are the apologists who cannot stand having apple mentioned because panorama didnt go through the whole directory of electronics makers starting with the smallest.


that was regarding the bbc and not every tv channel and also directed at a poster who seems to know very little about the bbc. do you have a factual problem with this particular piece?
 
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I'm not sure whether you have a significant other, but let's pretend you do. If I pay a hitman $10k to off that person, only the hitman is at fault?

What if Samsung paid my business $5m to steal the next iPhone from the design lab. My business is the one committing the act, and based on the comments so far, I'm assuming nobody here will blame Samsung, because after all, it wasn't Samsung, it was my business.

What a ridiculous example you did.
Apple isn't paying any assassin. Apple signed a regular contract with a foreign subcontractor. Apple isn't responsible for subcontractors work conditions, especially those not related to Apple's requests (assembling a phone isn't an hard task, in a physical way).

When you buy a washing machine are you asking about the manufacturer's employees wages ?

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Human exploitation of millions, lingering slavery, to make some super-ultra-rich. Obscene.
..... written on your iPad.



Speaking about hypocrisy
 
What a ridiculous example you did.
Apple isn't paying any assassin. Apple signed a regular contract with a foreign subcontractor. Apple isn't responsible for subcontractors work conditions, especially those not related to Apple's requests (assembling a phone isn't an hard task, in a physical way).

When you buy a washing machine are you asking about the manufacturer's employees wages ?

and does apple demand better?, is the subcontractor breaking their contract? and who is forcing apple to deal with them?

you didnt ask me but i often wonder about the prices of products and try to figure out how much each step of the chain makes. but what are the alternatives? apple shows that even you buy the more expensive brands that better treatment isnt guaranteed.

btw i wrote this on a 27" imac.
 
oh man you really got him/her. is this 5th grade reasoning the best you got?

this is an industrial problem and the leaders should set an example. and logically you start from the top.

many people like apple products but want the company to improve.



first of all you didnt answer a single question i asked of you but just replied with answers

who is forcing apple to to business in china (btw it focused on pegatron not foxconn)? are you saying there is not a single factory in china where standards are considerably better? are you saying companies that make tens of billions of profits a year and have a cash reserve so big its beyond comprehension do not have the power to improve standards if they wanted to?

are you seriously saying that big business needs regulations so it does not subject its workers to unacceptable conditions?

the only ones that are keeping there heads in the sands are the apologists who cannot stand having apple mentioned because panorama didnt go through the whole directory of electronics makers starting with the smallest.


that was regarding the bbc and not every tv channel and also directed at a poster who seems to know very little about the bbc. do you have a factual problem with this particular piece?
Pegatron.... Foxconn.... They are all the same. Actually I suspect those are among the best in China.
The problem is China, its laws and its culture.
Not Apple.
It doesn't matter how much you like to bash Apple over this: it's not Apple responsibility.
What is forcing Apple to do business in China? Simple answer: the market.

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and does apple demand better?, is the subcontractor breaking their contract? and who is forcing apple to deal with them?

you didnt ask me but i often wonder about the prices of products and try to figure out how much each step of the chain makes. but what are the alternatives? apple shows that even you buy the more expensive brands that better treatment isnt guaranteed.

btw i wrote this on a 27" imac.
So basically you are saying that you keep buying products made or assembled in China because you lack alternatives but Apple had to deal with other contractors even if there are no alternatives ?

Speaking about hypocrisy.....
 
after 20,000 views and 11 pages are we still deeply offended, or have we resolved everything?
 
Pegatron.... Foxconn.... They are all the same. Actually I suspect those are among the best in China.
The problem is China, its laws and its culture.
Not Apple.
It doesn't matter how much you like to bash Apple over this: it's not Apple responsibility.
What is forcing Apple to do business in China? Simple answer: the market.

its not apples responsibility who it signs billion dollar with? now thats a strange philosophy. hiding behind contractors is pathetic with uber and its pathetic with apple. its only topped by the newest which is hiding behind governments and lack of regulations.

you actually have no idea how they rank inside china.

apple seems to have no problem lobbying and doing tax deals with governments yet when it comes to workers rights they are mute. i think many would like it to be vice versa.

its corporate greed that makes them (and others) stay there.

So basically you are saying that you keep buying products made or assembled in China because you lack alternatives but Apple had to deal with other contractors even if there are no alternatives ?

Speaking about hypocrisy.....

its hypocrisy if you dont understand leverage and bargaining power. me threatening to take my business elsewhere is not on the same scale as apple doing it.
 
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