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Tim Cook 'Deeply Offended' by BBC Documentary on Apple Factory Conditions

Apple - I need 2 million iPhones assembled. How much can you do it for. I have all the parts and pieces.

Pegatron - hmm 8 bucks per iphone so 16 million

Foxconn - hmm 7 bucks per iPhone so 14 million

Apple - if you can do it for 5 bucks Foxconn you got the deal cause pegatrno will do it for that.

Foxconn - Damn yes ok we'll do it for 10 million 5 bucks per iphone.

Later Foxconn bump into pegatron but are too proud to let each other know the prices they tried to haggle for and how apple played them.
 
numlock said:
were you concerned for them when they moved some of the macpro work to the us?
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No. But it seems the bleeding hearts that are concerned for them now are the same ones pushing Apple to move manufacturing out of China. Hence my question.
 
Max(IT) said:
...Do you really think every contractor include specification for WORKER'S CONDITIONS in their contact?
What a silly idea....
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You really make me smile. These contracts rule every single detail, even what should the workers wear, etc. To cut it short: I don't think. I know as it is the practice.

But I know, it's cool to bash Apple here as a flame bait...
Click to expand...

It is not about Apple, at least for me. It is about one word: "offended", that should have been "regret".
Cool would be if you "missed" being blind as an Apple fan and could evaluate this unfortunate case objectively.
 
numlock said:
please dont think im defending the $2000 figure or find it plausible. its one ive seen quite often. i think its without merit as its never backed up in any way.

rogifan posted this yesterday http://twit.tv/show/tech-news-today/1159 there a forbes writer seems to pull a 2000 pounds figure out of thin air.
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Sorry I missed that earlier. I watched that segment of the video. The quote is around 15 minutes in, and the author is just using that to depict a noticeable cost increase. Earlier when I read the Forbes article, that author used a lot of hand wringing in his derivations. I didn't understand the comparison, because even if they were trying to maintain identical margins, it wouldn't amount to that level of cost increase.
 
Rogifan said:
No. But it seems the bleeding hearts that are concerned for them now are the same ones pushing Apple to move manufacturing out of China. Hence my question.
Click to expand...

i havent seen many ask for that but are you of the opinion that apple, samsung, sony etc and their subcontractors cannot drastically improve the situation?

this question is purely regarding the manufacturing process at pegatron and foxconn.
 
Ulenspiegel said:
You really make me smile. These contracts rule every single detail, even what should the workers wear, etc. To cut it short: I don't think. I know as it is the practice.



It is not about Apple, at least for me. It is about one word: "offended", that should have been "regret".
Cool would be if you "missed" being blind as an Apple fan and could evaluate this unfortunate case objectively.
Click to expand...

So you basically think that a Foxconn employee is treated differently when assembling a product for Apple, Samsung or Sony.
Yes, very credible indeed.....
 
Renzatic said:
There's no right answer to this, because no matter what you do, someone is gonna get screwed over. If you take advantage of it, you're enabling the continuation of its systemic abuse. If you don't, then these people won't have a job, and will probably starve.

The only positive part about the latter option is that it'll end up forcing the Chinese government to do something about it directly, rather than pretending it doesn't happen while profiting off of it. But at the same time, it's not the best solution, because...well...people are gonna starve.

So what do you do?
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Believe me I have no great love the Chinese government and I'd love nothing more if all Apple products could be manufactured someplace else. I have no doubt if Apple could do it they would. There's obviously a reason basically everyone in the consumer electronics industry manufactures most of their products in Asia.
 
Rogifan said:
As I said before the only people that will know the answer to this are Apple and its suppliers. You and the BBC and whoever can trot out this $5 figure you have no idea if it's accurate or not.
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Okay, again, naivete. The BBC did an "undercover" investigative piece on Pegatron. You don't think they did this without at least some covert, tacit approval/knowledge on Pegatron's part? And that the figure of $5 was leaked because actually, Pegatron knows that the demands being made upon them in terms of output are completely unreasonable compared to their compensation?

It really amazes me how much of a reality distortion field people are willing to enter to convince themselves that Apple is an extremely moral, ethical company when all evidence points to the assessment that they're just average. I'm not saying they are the worst, or anywhere near the worst. But they're not as good as they claim to be.

They'd get less flack if the CEO didn't bang on and on about how much he cares about human rights.
 
Zxxv said:
Apple - I need 2 million iPhones assembled. How much can you do it for. I have all the parts and pieces.

Pegatron - hmm 8 bucks per iphone so 16 million

Foxconn - hmm 7 bucks per iPhone so 14 million

Apple - if you can do it for 5 bucks Foxconn you got the deal cause pegatrno will do it for that.

Foxconn - Damn yes ok we'll do it for 10 million 5 bucks per iphone.

Later Foxconn bump into pegatron but are too proud to let each other know the prices they tried to haggle for and how apple played them.
Click to expand...

Zxxv, m8, touché! #
Most probably it went that way.
 
numlock said:
i havent seen many ask for that but are you of the opinion that apple, samsung, sony etc and their subcontractors cannot drastically improve the situation?

this question is purely regarding the manufacturing process at pegatron and foxconn.
Click to expand...

I do think Apple is trying to improve the situation. Do I think they can drastically improve it? Probably not. But I do think they're trying to do what they can and I think this BBC program was a biased smear job to make Apple look like it doesn't care. The gullible masses eat up the profits over people meme every time. I work in the insurance industry I know this all too well.

This site gott it right:

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patent...pple-is-motivated-by-politics-and-unions.html
 
Max(IT) said:
Correct, and a very good article linked.
But I know that most of the bashers here are not going to read it.
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I've linked this article a few times before when cheap labor is mentioned. But strangely enough, I never seem to get a comment to refute it.
 
Poisonivy326 said:
Okay, again, naivete. The BBC did an "undercover" investigative piece on Pegatron. You don't think they did this without at least some covert, tacit approval/knowledge on Pegatron's part? And that the figure of $5 was leaked because actually, Pegatron knows that the demands being made upon them in terms of output are completely unreasonable compared to their compensation?

It really amazes me how much of a reality distortion field people are willing to enter to convince themselves that Apple is an extremely moral, ethical company when all evidence points to the assessment that they're just average. I'm not saying they are the worst, or anywhere near the worst. But they're not as good as they claim to be.

They'd get less flack if the CEO didn't bang on and on about how much he cares about human rights.
Click to expand...
Apple isn't moral or ethical. It's a commercial reality, nothing more.
But they know the meaning of the image, for their marketing, so lately they started a campaign to slightly improve working conditions on some sub contractors, especially after the scandal about suicides a few years ago.
I'm not saying Apple is better. I'm just saying they are doing something, for their reasons. And I'm saying that we have to blame China's government for those poor worker's conditions.
 
linuxcooldude said:
I've linked this article a few times before when cheap labor is mentioned. But strangely enough, I never seem to get a comment to refute it.
Click to expand...

Do you want to be commented? Well, you just have to try to defend Apple ;)

Joke apart, the article said what we already know. China is attracting customers because there are few (if any) alternatives worldwide......

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Ulenspiegel said:
It is getting tiresome for me.
Each and single contract is signed, fulfilled, controlled according to the content as signed by Acer, Samsung, Sony, Apple etc.
Click to expand...

And you are avoiding again the answer: do you really think that a Foxconn employee is treated differently when assembling an iPhone or a Sony Z3 Compact?
 
Poisonivy326 said:
Okay, again, naivete. The BBC did an "undercover" investigative piece on Pegatron. You don't think they did this without at least some covert, tacit approval/knowledge on Pegatron's part? And that the figure of $5 was leaked because actually, Pegatron knows that the demands being made upon them in terms of output are completely unreasonable compared to their compensation?

It really amazes me how much of a reality distortion field people are willing to enter to convince themselves that Apple is an extremely moral, ethical company when all evidence points to the assessment that they're just average. I'm not saying they are the worst, or anywhere near the worst. But they're not as good as they claim to be.

They'd get less flack if the CEO didn't bang on and on about how much he cares about human rights.
Click to expand...

No because Pegatron called the BBC report "ridiculous".

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=2649207

Again I'm not arguing this from the standpoint of Apple being more moral than other companies. I think global warming is a joke and I'd much prefer if Tim Cook was less political as CEO. I don't purchase Apple products because I think they're more moral than other companies. But even though Tim Cook and I are on the opposite ends of the political spectrum I do believe that he is a decent and honest man and that Apple is trying to affect change in China. I also don't believe that Apple is knowingly lying in their supplier responsibility reports or looking the other way when abuses are brought to their attention. If that means I have RDF so be it.
 
Rogifan said:
I do think Apple is trying to improve the situation. Do I think they can drastically improve it? Probably not. But I do think they're trying to do what they can and I think this BBC program was a biased smear job to make Apple look like it doesn't care. The gullible masses eat up the profits over people meme every time. I work in the insurance industry I know this all too well.

This site gott it right:

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patent...pple-is-motivated-by-politics-and-unions.html
Click to expand...
Absolutely agree with you.

----------
Rogifan said:
No because Pegatron called the BBC report "ridiculous".

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=2649207

Again I'm not arguing this from the standpoint of Apple being more moral than other companies. I think global warming is a joke and I'd much prefer if Tim Cook was less political as CEO. I don't purchase Apple products because I think they're more moral than other companies. But even though Tim Cook and I are on the opposite ends of the political spectrum I do believe that he is a decent and honest man and that Apple is trying to affect change in China. I also don't believe that Apple is knowingly lying in their supplier responsibility reports or looking the other way when abuses are brought to their attention. If that means I have RDF so be it.
Click to expand...
Again I subscribe every single word.
 
Rogifan said:
I do think Apple is trying to improve the situation. Do I think they can drastically improve it? Probably not. But I do think they're trying to do what they can and I think this BBC program was a biased smear job to make Apple look like it doesn't care. The gullible masses eat up the profits over people meme every time. I work in the insurance industry I know this all too well.

This site gott it right:

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patent...pple-is-motivated-by-politics-and-unions.html
Click to expand...

fair enough answer and i respect that. now i am an optimist and think we definitely can. perhaps it will need us (consumers) to not be as demanding and pay a little bit more but we have to do our part.

i actually felt that article was comically bad. its never objective, it loses focus in small irrelevant matters and makes childish statements about the nader, the bbc reporter (even calling him a bozo) etc etc. and i certainly didnt feel the panorama episode was perfect.

can i ask how long you have been using apple products?

Ulenspiegel said:
You really make me smile. These contracts rule every single detail, even what should the workers wear, etc. To cut it short: I don't think. I know as it is the practice.
Click to expand...

that wont last long
 
numlock said:
fair enough answer and i respect that. now i am an optimist and think we definitely can. perhaps it will need us (consumers) to not be as demanding and pay a little bit more but we have to do our part.

i actually felt that article was comically bad. its never objective, it loses focus in small irrelevant matters and makes childish statements about the nader, the bbc reporter (even calling him a bozo) etc etc. and i certainly didnt feel the panorama episode was perfect.

can i ask how long you have been using apple products?
Click to expand...
it Isn't only Apple. It's Sony, Samsung, Microsoft, Nokia.... pretty much every single brand involved.
So you basically think that we all have to pay more, for every single product we buy, because of the China's government inability to respect human rights?
Do you think that Europeans workers one century ago where treated differently?
 
Max(IT) said:
it Isn't only Apple. It's Sony, Samsung, Microsoft, Nokia.... pretty much every single brand involved.
So you basically think that we all have to pay more, for every single product we buy, because of the China's government inability to respect human rights?
Do you think that Europeans workers one century ago where treated differently?
Click to expand...

dont believe i specifically mentioned apple. in fact go through my exchanges with rogifan and you will find me explicitly mentioning by name other big companies (post 429 to be exact).

are you not better than this?

i think it applies to any products (china is irrelevant to that really) if workers get compensated and treated better the cost could be passed on to the customers. if they are paid $5 per phone and that increases to $10. it is not beyond me to pay the difference.

does it matter if some european workers were treated the same way or worse 100 years ago? are we not supposed to be moving forward?
 
numlock said:
dont believe i specifically mentioned apple. in fact go through my exchanges with rogifan and you will find me explicitly mentioning by name other big companies (post 429 to be exact).

are you not better than this?

i think it applies to any products (china is irrelevant to that really) if workers get compensated and treated better the cost could be passed on to the customers. if they are paid $5 per phone and that increases to $10. it is not beyond me to pay the difference.

does it matter if some european workers were treated the same way or worse 100 years ago? are we not supposed to be moving forward?
Click to expand...
We moved forward by ourself, not thanks to Chinese customers taking charge for our government misbehave...
I don't really think that paying $5 more for every product could change the situation of those poor guys. It would just increase profits for their employers.
We should get rid of China entirely, to make their economy collapse, and finally change.
But that would affect even worst those poor guys, that would lose their job.

The only real solution in my opinion is to have the worldwide community force China government to change/enforce human right protection laws.
 
Max(IT) said:
We moved forward by ourself, not thanks to Chinese customers taking charge for our government misbehave...
I don't really think that paying $5 more for every product could change the situation of those poor guys. It would just increase profits for their employers.
We should get rid of China entirely, to make their economy collapse, and finally change.
But that would affect even worst those poor guys, that would lose their job.

The only real solution in my opinion is to have the worldwide community force China government to change/enforce human right protection laws.
Click to expand...

fair enough i suppose. although im not going debate about how every social improvement in the western world was achieved.

and in your opinion does the worldwide community contain apple?
 
Max(IT) said:
And you are avoiding again the answer: do you really think that a Foxconn employee is treated differently when assembling an iPhone or a Sony Z3 Compact?
Click to expand...

Have you heard of a Foxconn employee committing suicide assemblying a Sony Z3? That is the answer.

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numlock said:
...that wont last long
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Hehe...your words bear the naked truth, prophet. ;)
 
Ulenspiegel said:
Have you heard of a Foxconn employee committing suicide assemblying a Sony Z3? That is the answer.
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How naive are you, if you really believe what you wrote....

You didn't hear about that, because for the world's audience nobody care about a Sony Z3 .....

Those employees weren't working only on Apple products....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides



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numlock said:
fair enough i suppose. although im not going debate about how every social improvement in the western world was achieved.

and in your opinion does the worldwide community contain apple?
Click to expand...

It surely contains Apple. But we need the active participation of something much stronger than a commercial brand to change that.
 
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