Tim Cook 'Deeply Offended' by BBC Documentary on Apple Factory Conditions

[Ulenspiegel]

...Apple, in that case can ONLY try to reason with them and try to implement more human working conditions... They can't go there and force them to do it...

Again, I share your view, nevertheless Apple had/has to have production and QC supervisors on the spot, like many multinationals in China.

...Some people here is making it as if it was 100% fault on Apple's side... I'm just pointing out that it's WAY more complex than that...

Not 100%, but to a good extent. True, it is very complex like the whole outsourced production practice and mechanism in China.

 

[Max(IT)]

Never said it was apples fault, nor did the program, it just honestly said apples promises are being broken, and showed the evidence.

Apple does however have the power to do more, it's their supply line after all, if they didn't, why bother making new worker rights and promises anyway?

If it's your opinion apple is doing enough to stop the almost torturous conditions they work in, then fine.

For me, I believe they need to step thier game up and make sure what they've promised is being carried through.

In my opinion, Apple is doing something. It's a start.
I'm quite sure a lot of people here doesn't care at all about those poor guys/kids. They are just bashing Apple because it's quite popular on this forum.
And their smartphone is probably build by a company using the same factory with even less attention to workers rights......

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Mr. Cook is allowed to be deeply offended, but the situation in China is what it is.

This is a point I'd agree. China has to be blamed for that (and not only China, sadly ). Is it credible for Apple or any other big company to go elsewhere? No, it's not.
So it's China government's responsibility to guarantee better working conditions for their citizens. Will it raise the price of my next iPhone? I don't care (within limits...), But I found very silly to ask Tim Cook to solve a Chinese problem with human rights. Ask China about that.

 

[Renzatic]

Is it credible for Apple or any other big company to go elsewhere? No, it's not.

Why do you say that? The only advantage Chinese manufacturing has over any first world facility is incredibly cheap labor. The US, Canada, any number of European countries, or Japan could easily fill that gap.

A good question that, as far as a I know, hasn't been asked here yet is how much more expensive would a 1st world produced iPhone be?

 

[numlock]

Why do you say that? The only advantage Chinese manufacturing has over any first world facility is incredibly cheap labor. The US, Canada, any number of European countries, or Japan could easily fill that gap.

A good question that, as far as a I know, hasn't been asked here yet is how much more expensive would a 1st world produced iPhone be?

they never really explain their findings in detail so im a bit dismissive but ive seen $2000 iphone figures mentioned.

here is one article i read a few months ago

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ing-to-the-us-it-would-cost-them-4-2-billion/

but of course since he wrote this piece the tax situation in ireland and the netherlands has come under more scrutiny so who knows how long that will last so counting that as added production cost might not be fair.

 

[Renzatic]

they never really explain their findings in detail so im a bit dismissive but ive seen $2000 iphone figures mentioned.

here is one article i read a few months ago

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ing-to-the-us-it-would-cost-them-4-2-billion/

but of course since he wrote this piece the tax situation in ireland and the netherlands has come under more scrutiny so who knows how long that will last so counting that as added production cost might not be fair.

According to that Forbes article, wouldn't cost it anywhere $2000 unless Apple were to spike their margins to cover corporate taxes. Something they wouldn't necessarily have to do, since there are tons of corporate tax breaks and subsidies available here in the US to cover that extra cost. It's a rare, rare thing for any corporation to pay their full dues here in the states.

If the tax situation were truly that steep without any ways to work around it, you wouldn't have any foreign corporations such as Nissan, Honda, and Volkswagon opening manufacturing plants here. It'd be cheaper to ship their products overseas than it would be to assemble them here.

The article does state what I figured would happen. It'd raise prices from $4 per iPhone to around $8-10 per. That's more money spent on their end, but at the same time, they don't have to exploit anyone to get it, they'd create more jobs here, and they'd still make more than enough money to turn a healthy profit.

Would it be as high? No. Apple would likely be a $550 billion company rather than a $700 billion company if they produced goods domestically. $150 billion is a chunk of change, admittedly. But you're still obscenely rich, and you've built your manufacturing chain on top of a politically stable environment. There are trade offs for everything, and you don't necessarily have to maximize profits at all costs to be a successful company.

edit: though that article does bring up one thing I never accounted for: scale. Foxconn and Pegatron are MASSIVE companies, employing a million people or more. I don't think any single first world electronics manufacturer could match that.

 

[Poisonivy326]

I can't believe no one is connecting the dots: the fact that Tim Cook/Apple are paying a whopping $5 to assemble an iphone and the persistent complaints about Apple hardware no longer being as reliable/sturdy as they formerly were. How can there be much in the way of QC when the motto for the company seems to be "drive the hardest bargain possible at all times"? Anyone naive enough to believe that Pegatron is going to do the most rigorous QC when they're getting paid pennies themselves?

 

[Rogifan]

I can't believe no one is connecting the dots: the fact that Tim Cook/Apple are paying a whopping $5 to assemble an iphone and the persistent complaints about Apple hardware no longer being as reliable/sturdy as they formerly were. How can there be much in the way of QC when the motto for the company seems to be "drive the hardest bargain possible at all times"? Anyone naive enough to believe that Pegatron is going to do the most rigorous QC when they're getting paid pennies themselves?

Again what is your source for the $5? Why should anyone believe that figure?

 

[Ulenspiegel]

I can't believe no one is connecting the dots: the fact that Tim Cook/Apple are paying a whopping $5 to assemble an iphone and the persistent complaints about Apple hardware no longer being as reliable/sturdy as they formerly were. How can there be much in the way of QC when the motto for the company seems to be "drive the hardest bargain possible at all times"? Anyone naive enough to believe that Pegatron is going to do the most rigorous QC when they're getting paid pennies themselves?

Absolutely logical and true. And as I have said Apple Production and QC Supervisors should (have been) be there. That is the general practice, btw.

 

[Rogifan]

So what happens to all the people working at Foxconn and Pegatron if Apple (and others) no longer manufacture their products there? If there were better jobs available wouldn't these people already be taking them?

 

[Max(IT)]

Right. I don't think anyone is blaming Apple solely for this. There are many companies involved.

But at the same time, you should realize that the reason why Foxconn is able to do what it does without repercussion is BOTH because of Chinese law allows it, and because these western companies enable it with their money.

Don't you think? I know there are people here that signed in just for that purpose.....


I don't agree with your vision. Foxconn, Pegatron are all the same. Identical.
It's their culture, and it's their laws and conception about human rights.
How naive are us to believe a commercial company could change that?

Apple and others could stop giving them money, yes. What would be the result? Those poor workers would lost their job. Period.

Politicians, governments have to do something about China. Not Apple.

 

[numlock]

Again what is your source for the $5? Why should anyone believe that figure?

why not doubt if the payslips were forgeries or perhaps they never actually went to china?

you can ask that question with regular interval but another question imo would be why apple didnt dispute it in their letter if it was so grossly inaccurate.

btw have you watched it yet?

 

[Max(IT)]

why dont you start answering a question for once and finishing of one particular point instead of continually moving to another statement that you cannot back up. so i understand why that may come across to you as a broken record as it probably gets tiresome to have that pointed out.

just a few posts ago you said laws were not being broken. which is wrong like pretty much everything else you say.

now you copy and paste a long list of company names which dosent really change anything and you make the statement that apple paying more would not change anything. based on what?

The only wrong thing I'm seeing here is your naive biased opinion.....

 

[Renzatic]

So what happens to all the people working at Foxconn and Pegatron if Apple (and others) no longer manufacture their products there? If there were better jobs available wouldn't these people already be taking them?

There's no right answer to this, because no matter what you do, someone is gonna get screwed over. If you take advantage of it, you're enabling the continuation of its systemic abuse. If you don't, then these people won't have a job, and will probably starve.

The only positive part about the latter option is that it'll end up forcing the Chinese government to do something about it directly, rather than pretending it doesn't happen while profiting off of it. But at the same time, it's not the best solution, because...well...people are gonna starve.

So what do you do?

 

[numlock]

The only wrong thing I'm seeing here is your naive biased opinion.....

biased in what way? and against who? i have been using mostly apple products since the late 80s. it would probably be the first time in my life i would be accused of being biased against apple.

i find it ironic that someone from berlusconi land thinks that big corporations do not have the power to influence government.

then of course your statements that no labour laws have been violated which is not true. your statement that its impossible to treat workers better in china because of culture which also is not true.

you havent answered a single question i have asked. you just make some ignorant blanket statement again and again.

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So what happens to all the people working at Foxconn and Pegatron if Apple (and others) no longer manufacture their products there? If there were better jobs available wouldn't these people already be taking them?

were you concerned for them when they moved some of the macpro work to the us?

 

[Poisonivy326]

Again what is your source for the $5? Why should anyone believe that figure?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkPLLVT4uY

At 52:21

 

[thekev]

they never really explain their findings in detail so im a bit dismissive but ive seen $2000 iphone figures mentioned.

here is one article i read a few months ago

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ing-to-the-us-it-would-cost-them-4-2-billion/

but of course since he wrote this piece the tax situation in ireland and the netherlands has come under more scrutiny so who knows how long that will last so counting that as added production cost might not be fair.

I read the article. The author's numbers used $600 million in increased assembly costs and a doomsday prediction of a $3.6 billion dollar higher tax bill. He didn't fully derive the latter and used a stand-in for the first. As for $2000 phones, did you ask any of those people how they arrived at that figure?

 

[numlock]

I read the article. The author's numbers used $600 million in increased assembly costs and a doomsday prediction of a $3.6 billion dollar higher tax bill. He didn't fully derive the latter and used a stand-in for the first. As for $2000 phones, did you ask any of those people how they arrived at that figure?

please dont think im defending the $2000 figure or find it plausible. its one ive seen quite often. i think its without merit as its never backed up in any way.

rogifan posted this yesterday http://twit.tv/show/tech-news-today/1159 there a forbes writer seems to pull a 2000 pounds figure out of thin air.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Why do you say that? The only advantage Chinese manufacturing has over any first world facility is incredibly cheap labor. The US, Canada, any number of European countries, or Japan could easily fill that gap.

A good question that, as far as a I know, hasn't been asked here yet is how much more expensive would a 1st world produced iPhone be?

Not true. Again, cheap labor is only part of the equation. Its also the logistics of the whole operation. China's infrastructure to support all the raw materials needed...additional factories to provide axillary parts...factories often located close to each other and modification of parts can happen in hours instead of weeks or months. Getting the qualified engineers and supervisors in the quantity needed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...ueezed-middle-class.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all&

 

[Max(IT)]

Why do you say that? The only advantage Chinese manufacturing has over any first world facility is incredibly cheap labor. The US, Canada, any number of European countries, or Japan could easily fill that gap.

A good question that, as far as a I know, hasn't been asked here yet is how much more expensive would a 1st world produced iPhone be?

And do you think it's a little advantage?
Speaking about extremely high quantities of units produced over the time, millions and millions actually, cheap labor makes the difference.

Btw your is a good question, but I think we are not going to find any answer.
As I demonstrated, it's not only Apple but basically all the companies producing worldwide distributed products, that relay on China for that. So if not for the "big experts" on this forum, the real world assembles components in China for a reason.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Don't you think? I know there are people here that signed in just for that purpose.....


I don't agree with your vision. Foxconn, Pegatron are all the same. Identical.
It's their culture, and it's their laws and conception about human rights.
How naive are us to believe a commercial company could change that?

Apple and others could stop giving them money, yes. What would be the result? Those poor workers would lost their job. Period.

Politicians, governments have to do something about China. Not Apple.

You accuse others of being biased whilst yourself do nothing but trying to relieve Apple of responsibilty shifting it solely on China.
Foxconn and Pegatron are Apple's contractors which means that these relations are ruled by strict contracts, including questions of production, quality requirements, QC, production and working conditions etc.
Those products wear an Apple logo. Period.

 

[Max(IT)]

biased in what way? and against who? i have been using mostly apple products since the late 80s. it would probably be the first time in my life i would be accused of being biased against apple.

i find it ironic that someone from berlusconi land thinks that big corporations do not have the power to influence government.

then of course your statements that no labour laws have been violated which is not true. your statement that its impossible to treat workers better in china because of culture which also is not true.

you havent answered a single question i have asked. you just make some ignorant blanket statement again and again.

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were you concerned for them when they moved some of the macpro work to the us?

You lost any credibility the moment you wrote about "berlusconi land" ....
And again demonstrated to know very little about China ....

 

[numlock]

You lost any credibility the moment you wrote about "berlusconi land" ....
And again demonstrated to know very little about China ....

really im not bothered if i lost credibility in your eyes. you make incorrect statement after statement without a shred of evidence to back them up with. its impossible to converse with someone like you.

and how on earth did i "again" demonstrate lack of knowledge about china when i made no mention of china in the post you quoted.

 

[Max(IT)]

You accuse others of being biased whilst yourself do nothing but trying to relieve Apple of responsibilty shifting it solely on China.
Foxconn and Pegatron are Apple's contractors which means that these relations are ruled by strict contracts, including questions of production, quality requirements, QC, production and working conditions etc.
Those products wear an Apple logo. Period.

In case you missed

FOXCONN manufactures products for companies including:
(country of headquarters in parentheses)

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)
Apple Inc. (United States)
ASRock (Taiwan)
Asus (Taiwan)
Barnes & Noble (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Dell (United States)
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)
Intel (United States)
IBM (United States)
Lenovo (China)
Logitech (Switzerland)
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Netgear (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)
Panasonic (Japan)
Philips (Netherlands)
Samsung (South Korea)
Sharp (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)
Toshiba (Japan)
Vizio (United States)

And this is only Foxconn, not to speak about Pegatron....
Do you really think every contractor include specification for WORKER'S CONDITIONS in their contact?
What a silly idea....
So Foxconn's employees are treated differently when assembling iPhone or a Sony (another Foxconn customer) smartphone in your naive vision ?
Very credible indeed....
Working conditions are decided by those Chinese factories, and if Apple really made some points about that, we have to praise Apple about it, because others didn't.
When a company sign a contract with a sub contractor, they decide a lot of things, but not how much the sub contractor has to pay workers, how many hours they have to work and something like that. Apple is trying to improve their conditions because in the past there were news about suicides that put a bad light on Apple's brand. But it's not their responsibility.
And you can change the word Apple with any other of the list above.....

But I know, it's cool to bash Apple here as a flame bait....

 

[Rogifan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkPLLVT4uY

At 52:21

As I said before the only people that will know the answer to this are Apple and its suppliers. You and the BBC and whoever can trot out this $5 figure you have no idea if it's accurate or not.

 

[Max(IT)]

Not true. Again, cheap labor is only part of the equation. Its also the logistics of the whole operation. China's infrastructure to support all the raw materials needed...additional factories to provide axillary parts...factories often located close to each other and modification of parts can happen in hours instead of weeks or months. Getting the qualified engineers and supervisors in the quantity needed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...ueezed-middle-class.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all&

Correct, and a very good article linked.
But I know that most of the bashers here are not going to read it.