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Tim Cook 'Deeply Offended' by BBC Documentary on Apple Factory Conditions

Rogifan said:
Yeah full of looney toons posts like yours. :eek:

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Because nobody else could possibly be biased. Only those who aren't condemming Apple 24/7. :rolleyes:
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In that case you have some serious comprehension issues, cause it's very clear the amount of people who never watched the BBC documentary and started posting rubbish as a natural instinct to defend Apple , yeah, bias as I said, and I believe you were part of that apologising response team ;) :rolleyes:

Cause I doubt some of the posters would be coming across as sounding racists, were it not for the fact they were defending Apple, you might have realised that I was sticking up for some stupid posts on here excusing it as bias instead of racism. I prefer to think it's bias, being an one of the biggest Apple fan sites......
 
Keirasplace said:
The racist is the person saying that everyone there is a slave. If Apple's conditions are "slave" labor as many idiots here say, then we have to come to this "conclusion" that 99% of produced goods in the last 30 years are untenable to people saying that. That's logical consistency.

So, these people need to strip down, sell everything they own (yes, I'm betting nothing you own, is really 100% union wage (sic) to the resource and component level) and show their principle. I won't accept any more argument about this until this happens. I'd expect those people won't be logging in on this forum anymore because there is no way to do so without using "slave" labor.

I'm tired of grand declaration of moral superiority of anyone here without this being done. Then, everyone who did this can spent the big money and time to hunt down those products not touched by "slave" labor. You're in for some fun I tell you.

I'm going to wait for a reply on this ; mail it in, because obviously nobody who is so principle will actually own a computer, tablet, smart phone, network equipment....
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I'd blame your education system, it has robbed you of basic knowledge. Let me pull apart your whole rant, they are not slaves, they get paid. If you bothered to watch he documentary ...... Working conditions.... Though yet again another post without having read/watched the content of what the tread is about.

You can experience what is happening today in Canada , go outside and find people people working for a minimum wage, I bet you take for granted what they do for you everyday , so you can have clean streets, fast food etc....

And what do you do for a living??
 
mac1984user said:
Given that each corporation, the BBC and Apple, are in it for profit, I tend to distrust the motivations of both. So real conditions are probably more convoluted and exploitative than either makes out.
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How exactly are the BBC in it for profit? Panorama is funded by the license fee.

I don't doubt Apple has made strides into working conditions within their supply chain. However - their work is certainly not done, and Panorama is absolutely right to focus our attention on this - let's not forget, Apple generates the most profit of any company in the world.

Maybe Apple does do more than any other company, but they are also the company best placed on the planet to do this. It's all relative. Are they doing enough? I don't know, and this email doesn't convince me. Bad PR move in my opinion - if they had been humble and accepted what we had seen is not good at all, and they're still working towards it while highlighting the progress they had already made, I would have had much more respect for the senior management. This email is arrogant.
 
MH01 said:
I'd blame your education system, it has robbed you of basic knowledge. Let me pull apart your whole rant, they are not slaves, they get paid. If you bothered to watch he documentary ...... Working conditions.... Though yet again another post without having read/watched the content of what the tread is about.

You can experience what is happening today in Canada , go outside and find people people working for a minimum wage, I bet you take for granted what they do for you everyday , so you can have clean streets, fast food etc....

And what do you do for a living??
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Please read what I ACTUALLY WROTE; I was talking about the many comments about slavery RIGHT IN THIS THREAD.

I've worked as a Sr./chief architect or CTO (depends on company). I have volunteered a dozen times during my 4-6 weeks, once every two years, holidays in West Africa (my first language is French) since the 1980s. I also volunteer around here. (I negotiate to get more of those days off rather than pay).

I take nothing for granted. I'm quite conscious of my privilege. I'm just not a raving moral idiot when it comes to complaining about things while siting on my ass using clothes, cars, smart phones, etc... produced with foreign labor.

That's all I hear all day long everywhere from BOBO's (a pejorative term around here for high minded high revenue "bourgeois" who are outraged on cue, and do NOTHING). Most activists of all kinds are LIKE THAT and I often deal with those moralistic turds.

I'm not against improvements in working conditions at all. But, going over the top to make a point makes the argument weak.

Fixing things is not instantaneous even for a company as big and seemingly committed as Apple. Anyone who has tried to change anything down there knows how insanely hard it is; corruption alone drives me mad!

People these days have an "outrage" addiction fed by the 24h a day media. Everything has to be oversold and a sense of measure has been lost. The making of clothes in Bangladesh in constant deadly conditions is put on the same level as the minor issues in Chinese Apple contractors. By doing this, it trivialized the real tragedies and makes fixes to them less likely since urgency is lost once the "outrage of the week" occurs.

If someone is NOT doing their jobs it is the media which instead of reflecting reality, shape it to their world view and pander to their viewers. The medias in general have never been less useful agents of social and cultural changes than they are right now. Nobody trusts that they truly are unbiased (or even trying to be).
 
kettle said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Worldwide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_World_News

http://www.bbcworldwide.com/annual-review/annual-review-2014.aspx

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/nov/12/panorama-could-split-from-bbc-shakeup
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BBC worldwide is the commercial arm of the BBC, very good , though this has what to do with panorama???

You do realise the BBC makes money from ..... Dancing with the stars, Top Gear, Doctor who etc internationally.....

I don't think you actually understand what is BBC and BBC worldwide , especially in light of this documtary.
 
Just watched it. All the faults lie under the responsibility of Pegatron, not Apple. That wouldn't make a story though, would it?
 
Jsameds said:
Just watched it. All the faults lie under the responsibility of Pegatron, not Apple. That wouldn't make a story though, would it?
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ok. then why does apple (and other companies) do business with pegatron?

are the contracts that pegatron makes with apple (and other companies) setup so this kind of treatment is inevitable?
 
Keirasplace said:
Please read what I ACTUALLY WROTE; I was talking about the many comments about slavery RIGHT IN THIS THREAD.

I've worked as a Sr./chief architect or CTO (depends on company). I have volunteered a dozen times during my 4-6 weeks, once every two years, holidays in West Africa (my first language is French) since the 1980s. I also volunteer around here. (I negotiate to get more of those days off rather than pay).

I take nothing for granted. I'm quite conscious of my privilege. I'm just not a raving moral idiot when it comes to complaining about things while siting on my ass using clothes, cars, smart phones, etc... produced with foreign labor.

That's all I hear all day long everywhere from BOBO's (a pejorative term around here for high minded high revenue "bourgeois" who are outraged on cue, and do NOTHING). Most activists of all kinds are LIKE THAT and I often deal with those moralistic turds.

I'm not against improvements in working conditions at all. But, going over the top to make a point makes the argument weak.

Fixing things is not instantaneous even for a company as big and seemingly committed as Apple. Anyone who has tried to change anything down there knows how insanely hard it is; corruption alone drives me mad!

People these days have an "outrage" addiction fed by the 24h a day media. Everything has to be oversold and a sense of measure has been lost. The making of clothes in Bangladesh in constant deadly conditions is put on the same level as the minor issues in Chinese Apple contractors. By doing this, it trivialized the real tragedies and makes fixes to them less likely since urgency is lost once the "outrage of the week" occurs.

If someone is NOT doing their jobs it is the media which instead of reflecting reality, shape it to their world view and pander to their viewers. The medias in general have never been less useful agents of social and cultural changes than they are right now. Nobody trusts that they truly are unbiased (or even trying to be).
Click to expand...

The fact is, this is the reality of the working conditions in China and supply chain of all the electronics we use on a daily basis. The problem for me is that Apple are pretending they are better than any other company producing goods in China, is all ******** as the Indonesian bloke puts it in the documentary . Just call a spade a spade.

If I offended you, apologies, I did not read all the posts leading up to your responce, which out of context seemed way off the mark, ie the documentary never claims slavery is being practiced!

I just wish Apple would shut up and not pretend they care so much about workers and the environment . Look at the pictures of when Tim toured the factory versus to how it looked in the documentary . One was like a movie set and the other reality. It's disgusting .

BBC is also quilty of over dramatisting conditions that are completely beyond the control of Apple, but hey Apple stop ********ting that you are changing things....
 
Jsameds said:
Just watched it. All the faults lie under the responsibility of Pegatron, not Apple. That wouldn't make a story though, would it?
Click to expand...

But Pegatron and meeting Apple's audit trails, and exceeding conditions/terms set out by Apple. What faults?? Are you saying there is a problem here.... Not according to Apple, they setup rules to stop all this happening, more than anyone else in the industry.
 
numlock said:
ok. then why does apple (and other companies) do business with pegatron?

are the contracts that pegatron makes with apple (and other companies) setup so this kind of treatment is inevitable?
Click to expand...

So what do you suggest? Move production to the U.S. where it's more under their control? Don't forget by doing so they will be cutting hundreds of thousands of jobs in China and also reducing their profit margin. It doesn't make ethical or financial sense.


MH01 said:
But Pegatron and meeting Apple's audit trails, and exceeding conditions/terms set out by Apple. What faults?? Are you saying there is a problem here.... Not according to Apple, they setup rules to stop all this happening, more than anyone else in the industry.
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They weren't though. It's clear from the documentary that Pegatron were LYING to Apple to keep Apple happy that changes had been made and they were doing it all by the books. Apple are trying but there's only so much you can do when the other side will just blatantly lie to you.
 
codo said:
Panorama is commissioned by BBC One. Funded by the license fee. Try again.
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did you read any of those links?

I think you should try again

Panorama is aired worldwide via BBC World News

BBC World News is sold via BBC Worldwide

"BBC Worldwide Ltd. is the wholly owned commercial subsidiary of the BBC, formed out of a restructuring of its predecessor BBC Enterprises in 1995. The company exploits BBC brands, sells BBC and other British programming for broadcast abroad with the aim of supplementing the income received by the BBC through the licence fee.

In 2013/14, BBC Worldwide generated headline profits of £157.4m and headline sales of £1,042.3m and returned £173.8m to the BBC." wiki

The BBC are currently in talks to sell the Panorama programme/brand - the idea here (I believe) is to pimp the ratings to increase value but retain the BBC reporters/researchers to work on other profitable current affairs programming.

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MH01 said:
BBC worldwide is the commercial arm of the BBC, very good , though this has what to do with panorama???

You do realise the BBC makes money from ..... Dancing with the stars, Top Gear, Doctor who etc internationally.....

I don't think you actually understand what is BBC and BBC worldwide , especially in light of this documtary.
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you get a cookie for reading one of the links
 
Keirasplace said:
I take nothing for granted. I'm quite conscious of my privilege. I'm just not a raving moral idiot when it comes to complaining about things while siting on my ass using clothes, cars, smart phones, etc... produced with foreign labor.

That's all I hear all day long everywhere from BOBO's (a pejorative term around here for high minded high revenue "bourgeois" who are outraged on cue, and do NOTHING). Most activists of all kinds are LIKE THAT and I often deal with those moralistic turds.

I'm not against improvements in working conditions at all. But, going over the top to make a point makes the argument weak.

Fixing things is not instantaneous even for a company as big and seemingly committed as Apple. Anyone who has tried to change anything down there knows how insanely hard it is; corruption alone drives me mad!
Click to expand...

excellent post - especially this section - people relating to this sentiment are a very many
 
MH01 said:
I just wish Apple would shut up and not pretend they care so much about workers and the environment . Look at the pictures of when Tim toured the factory versus to how it looked in the documentary . One was like a movie set and the other reality. It's disgusting .
Click to expand...

Well by that method of reasoning...

I just wish Panorama would shut up and stop pretending to care about balanced and truthful journalism.

Look at the documentary - one truth is a documentary and the other is a reality.

...and yes, it's not very surprising in this day and age.
 
MH01 said:
I get it, it's all the fault of the Chinese society !

You clearly have no idea what the panorama program is. Apple is not a victim here, they are just another company that has been exposed on pandorama, we are all aware of the bad working conditins In China , though when Tim comes out and says he is deeply offended , that just shows you Apple themselves want to carry on as though this is totally acceptable. Hey Tim got all the free positive press when he went tot China , to improve the conditions etc, well this is a really check for him, either it was for show, or he has not done enough. Being deeply upset..... Get over it Tim, and do something about it. Either you were bluffing about changing the conditions or your were naive, either way step up to the plate.

And as for falling asleep at your desk, did you just compare your job as a web designer to that of a Chinese factory worker. You poor thing... How about swapping with them for a couple of weeks ;) really silly comparison mate, If you were falling asleep in our company, you would be sent home, under occupational health and safety. Its good to be able to choose when you work longer hours ;)
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I didn't said it was fault of the Chinese society... I said that it's up to the Chinese government to regulate bad working conditions, not Apple... Apple can try (as they say they did) to reason with the company or leave to another company/country... The rest is up to the Chinese Government...

As for Tim, i've never even mentioned it... So, i take it that's not for me...

As for the falling asleep, i never compared my job to theirs... I just wanted to point out that its not as dramatic as BBC tried to make out... Luckily i love my job, and even more luckily i work at home, so, obviously im not comparing... But come on... In every society, in every job where you have to sit down, people will, eventually, sleep in... Is that a sign that you are not resting enough? Of course it is, but not the drama they make it to be... Specially during though deadlines periods, which is the case. Plus, i repeat, they are not slaves... If they feel that they are being abused they can always pick themselves up and find another job... Probably they will get another job with worst conditions, but hey, they are free to do it...

Plus, we can't even compare our ocidental society with theirs society... My mother's family is, mainly, from Macau, and my older family members (that still have some "chinese blood") have an work ethic that as nothing to do with ours...
 
Itzamna said:
I didn't said it was fault of the Chinese society... I said that it's up to the Chinese government to regulate bad working conditions, not Apple... Apple can try (as they say they did) to reason with the company or leave to another company/country... The rest is up to the Chinese Government...
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That is true, but only to some extent. It is Apple' responsibilty to regulate in the contract - amongst other criteria - the working conditions, the quality expectations etc. that has to do - in the end - with an effective QC of the products as well.
 
Jsameds said:
So what do you suggest? Move production to the U.S. where it's more under their control? Don't forget by doing so they will be cutting hundreds of thousands of jobs in China and also reducing their profit margin. It doesn't make ethical or financial sense.




They weren't though. It's clear from the documentary that Pegatron were LYING to Apple to keep Apple happy that changes had been made and they were doing it all by the books. Apple are trying but there's only so much you can do when the other side will just blatantly lie to you.
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its not for me to suggest anything. you absolved apple of any blame because its a pegatron factory and staff so i asked you those questions.

when staff are dying and committing suicide my immediate concern is not with shareholders and their margin.

what is it that panorama and countless other organisations have done that is beyond the scope of apple?

and conveniently since you didnt answer my question how much of the treatment and conditions are a direct result of the demands and contracts pegatron makes with apple (in this case)?
 
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Ulenspiegel said:
That is true, but only to some extent. It is Apple' responsibilty to regulate in the contract - amongst other criteria - the working conditions, the quality expectations etc. that has to do - in the end - with an effective QC of the products as well.
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Of course, but as i said, they can try to reason with them (be it on contract or not)... Let's say that everything the company is doing is legal in China (i have no idea if it is since i do not know anything about chinese laws)... Apple, in that case can ONLY try to reason with them and try to implement more human working conditions... They can't go there and force them to do it... Sure they can threaten them that they will leave or swap companies or lower their payment or whatever, but in the end Apple need's them as they need Apple...Not many companies can deliver the massive amount of devices they are delivering.

And if everything is illegal, again, Apple has to go through the Chinese law system to enforce anything (and we don't know if they did or did not). As i've already said, China is a sovereign country, it has it's own set of laws and working regulations.

Some people here is making it as if it was 100% fault on Apple's side... I'm just pointing out that it's WAY more complex than that...
 
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