Tim Cook Says Apple Products 'Change the World' and Aren't Priced Just 'For the Rich'

[iamtheonlyone4ever]

a very important point that many people are missing, we are only talking about a single phone here, yes many wife have their own jobs so if they want one and they have the money they can buy their own phone, but if the wife doesn't work and the poor husband wants to buy a new iPhone and he doesn't buy his wife one then he is in trouble so the poor man will have to pull out 2 grands so he can buy a phone for him and another one for his lovely wife, maybe if he doesn't buy his wife one, she won't allowed him to buy one for himself, just in case this is not my personal experience but i seen this case many times, if you want one you have to buy me one, oh dear

 

[jblagden]

Price gouging is when you radically raise prices on something to take advantage of a situation like a natural disaster, famine, etc. No one owes you or anyone else a top of the line SMARTPHONE. If you can't afford something, buy something you can afford. If you choose to use credit on something you can't afford in cash, then live with your decision, like all adults. Apple doesn't owe you, me, or anyone else a $30 phone.

I respectfully disagree. Price gouging is price gouging regardless of the situation. If one company is charging significantly more than the other guys with no good reason, it's called price gouging. Especially since Apple is the only company that makes iPhones.

 

[lazard]

I made that analogy to highlight how Leica brings to their target customer an immediate image of a company with certain look, feel, performance to their impeccably engineered products. It is obviously worth that generous premium they charge to their buyers. But the average consumer shopping for a bargain priced "pro" camera sees only hugely diminishing results for the enormous extra cost.

Could Apple and Leica both charge considerably less for their well-engineered products? Of course.

Apple products are manufactured in China in sweatshops. Leica cameras are mostly manufactured in Germany, with a couple products manufactured in Portugal.

 

[jblagden]

Ford does make cheap models, Apple does not. Poor analogy.

Its like someone explaining that they had to hit rock bottom and buy a BMW......a poor mans car.......

In fact, some Android phones are inexpensive enough for carriers to have "BOGO" deals. This isn't only true in the smartphone realm. It's also true in the computer realm. Apple's computers start out at $1000, while other companies go as low as $200 - and if you don't want Windows, try Linux. It's not simply that Apple charges a lot, but Apple doesn't really have a low-end.

 

[Pilgrim1099]

This is what's truly bothering me with the current smartphone market. it's no longer a booming market. it's well into maturity. The companies aren't inventing anything new, and everything is generally an iteration on previous technologies. None of these flagship companies are hurting with very safe profit margins, even above and beyond what they're spending in R&D.

in almost every single other market, when these products hit these stages of development where it's mostly iterative changes than revolutionary changes, prices drop. Competition spurs price wars which decreases margins and makes the commodity of the product more affordable. Especially as the market matures, economy of scale also should kick in to further lower costs of production and costs to consumers.

Yet in the smartphone world, unlike almost all other commercial tech, we're seeing year after year prices go up. $650 is no longer flagship territory.

I think if the expected changes today come through, Apple's going to be setting themselves up for one of the worst quarters of iPhone sales in a while (but hey, this is just me being armchair analyst here).

if the iPhone 8 launches with nearly identical hardware as the iPhone 7, but at the same price points (649.99 and 750), current iPhone 7 and 6s users are going to balk. 4 iterations of the exact same design and implementation (yes yes, antenna bands don't make a design different), at the exact same price, without marked improvement, iPhone users are going to question whats the point of upgrading to the 8. Meanwhile, at $1000, for the iPhone X, there are going to be a lot of people who just say that it's out of the question and too expensive.

I think Apple needs to do to the iPhone lineup what they did to the iPad lineup. charge their big premium on the flagship device only. the iPhone X, but move the price of the iPhone 8 to be more accessible. it's no longer their Premium high end device, so dropping it's price to 599, or even $550 would give existing iPhone users some reason to upgrade.

however, one thing we haven't seen much of is iPhone 8 product leaks. Maybe we'll be surprised and it'll get a significant upgrade as well

Something tells me the iPhone X is probably a limited 10th Anniversary edition, just like they did with the gold Apple Watch priced at $10,000. I could be wrong, though. The other models might be cheaper versions of the X. But by 2018, next year, what we see in iPhone X will then become standardized, if it ever comes to that. But if it's not a limited edition, then this may make the X the most expensive high end device from Apple in a maturing market.

It's the feature creep that's causing the prices to go up but also the materials that go into the design. People have to ask themselves exactly what are they paying for. Is it the internals they're paying for or the phone material? It's interesting to note how Apple devices are usually high on storage but low on RAM while keeping premium prices high, while on Android phones they cost a bit less but with specs that are relative to today's standards.

 

[WatchFromAfar]

That DNA part needs to go every time Tim and his execs open their mouths. They need to stop rehashing it. When Steve Jobs was alive, this was perfectly acceptable due to his work ethic. I can believe that. But after he left, they kept parroting the DNA part. Also, the DNA part got started by Jobs, not Cook. He wasn't there in the very beginning in 1976. Jobs was.

And that DNA part can die out when Cook leaves. People think he will stay there forever. He won't. What should be more concerning is WHO takes place after Cook goes out the window. That is when and how the DNA becomes preserved or destroyed. If it's Craig, it might be preserved and the 'magic' might be restored. Maybe. He's probably the only one who could do it.

But if it's Jeff Williams the COO, the company is screwed. He's another Tim Cook clone as this is a repeat of the late 80s and early 1990s. I hate to say it but Apple needs fresh blood in the exec levels. BADLY. Scott Forstall's gone and won't return to Apple. Ever. I don't think he would ever want to be in the same room with the execs or Jony Ive. He's probably glad he's out of the Apple board room drama and won't have to put up with their BS.

Do people think that when Cook leaves Apple, he's going to carry the 'DNA' aspect of the company work ethics when he goes somewhere else? I doubt it. It's all about adapting to corporate culture, environment and policies.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Feenician]

Will Note 8 price stay at 950 2-3 months down the line?

Nope. Demand will tank for the Samsung, as it always does, and before you know it they’ll be BOGO and free in a box of cereal. Simple laws of supply and demand.
[doublepost=1505226175][/doublepost]

I was trying to give you a chance to retract your ridiculous claim, that no one has cared enough to ever ask a premium product CEO about his profit margins.

Think about your claim for even one second. Obviously he's been asked.

What you should've done, was tried to find an interview where he tried to spin his margins as not being high, same as Cook did. Then Leica would be an appropriate analogy.

So you made a claim, couldn’t back it up and told me to Google it. Got it. Just as well as I’m not the type to hit Report.

 

[jblagden]

in Canada, the iPhone X, if really priced at 999USD, will likely be closer to $1500 CAD.

that's insane for a phone.

And it also shows the difference between the two currencies. I also checked, and the $1,000 (USD) iPhone would be $1,213.97 Candadian. The difference between CAD and USD is around 22%.

 

[LordVic]

Something tells me the iPhone X is probably a limited 10th Anniversary edition, just like they did with the gold Apple Watch priced at $10,000. I could be wrong, though. The other models might be cheaper versions of the X. But by 2018, next year, what we see in iPhone X will then become standardized, if it ever comes to that. But if it's not a limited edition, then this may make the X the most expensive high end device from Apple in a maturing market.

It's the feature creep that's causing the prices to go up but also the materials that go into the design. People have to ask themselves exactly what are they paying for. Is it the internals they're paying for or the phone material? It's interesting to note how Apple devices are usually high on storage but low on RAM while keeping premium prices high, while on Android phones they cost a bit less but with specs that are relative to today's standards.

Correct, this is why i'm mostly talking about the iPhone 8 and not the X in regards to how the pricing should be going down on these phones, not up.

for example

1 Materials - The iPhone materials haven't changed since the 6 (assuming the iPhone 8 doesn't surprise us with a change). this means that manufacturing technologies and economies of scale should be bringing the price down on the manufacturing of the shell.

2 Camera Sensors - The Camera sensors in the iPhone's (especially the 4.7" model) hasn't changed significantly over the years. Most of the changes we're seeing now are software and ISP. the changes we are seeing to cameras are minor and iterative. this should help drive prices down as well, since there's no significant re-design going on

3 Memory (RAM) - If the RAM isn't changing, than we're still paying the same today for 2gb of RAM that we paid 2 years ago for 2gb of RAM. again, this doesn't jive with the way the market works. same as above, economies of scale and the fact that these are iterative improvements to ram should see RAM prices drop (and this is significant since for everyone else, RAM prices do drop, just look at the Android market for mobile or desktop market for computers. RAM prices always decrease over time within the same RAM version)

4 Display - the iPhone display also hasn't seen fundamental changes. the same overall resolutions with some minor improvements. Again, all the rest of the world seems to be able to provide displays that are constantly getting denser, brighter and more colourful for cheaper. it's only when a new technology is implemented that we tend to see display pricing go up. if the iPhone 8 delivers the same LCD panel as the previous 2-3 iterations, than the same as above applies, Economies of scale and manufacturing improvements

5 Storage - Rinse and repeat the above points

6 Additional Features - This is where they need to deliver in order to justify the same price IMHO for the iPhone 8 as the 7. if they can deliver some tentpole that offers compelling reason to upgrade, than ok, the iphone 8 is still "flagship" and maybe justifies the current pricing. But without significant additional feature, the iPhone 8 should be cheaper than the the iPhone 7.

Apple will be getting significant cost savings out of re-doing the same device essentially for the 4th iteration. To not somehow pass that to the consumer, feels like Apple is definitely expecting to use the iPhone 8 to help maximize profits, even by not delivering a significant upgrade. the iPhone 7 was close enough to the iPhone 6s, that I felt like it was already pushing too hard, but to do it for another time just seems cheap.

this is why I believe that Apple should be dropping the price of the iPhone 8. Make the iPhone lineup more like the iPad's current lineup. you have a "cheaper" reasonable option that hits 80% use case, and the expensive flagship high end for the rest who will spend the money.

 

[mib1800]

Nope. Demand will tank for the Samsung, as it always does, and before you know it they’ll be BOGO and free in a box of cereal. Simple laws of supply and demand.

Isn't this a good thing? You can get note 8 which has more and can do more at half the price of iPhone 8.

 

[lazard]

Nope. Demand will tank for the Samsung, as it always does, and before you know it they’ll be BOGO and free in a box of cereal. Simple laws of supply and demand.
[doublepost=1505226175][/doublepost]

you do know that there were a bunch of BOGO offers for the iphone 7 as well

 

[Feenician]

Isn't this a good thing? You can get note 8 which has more and can do more at half the price of iPhone 8.

It’s certainly a good thing for someone who waits to get one, yes. As long as they realize the reason demand tanks is because, when the hype dies down, you’re still dealing with a second rate device with feature list checkbox-itis.

 

[jblagden]

Price gouging? Every business will try to charge the highest price possible that their customers are willing to pay.
And gouging will only work if your consumers don't have alternatives. Guess what, there are plenty of cheaper phones and computers out there. People can buy those instead of Apple's.

Maybe you should try starting a business, and see if you can survive without your definition of "gouging."

It depends on how you look at "alternatives". Those "alternatives" run a different operating system, which is a problem for two reasons. For starters, a lot of folks don't want to change operating systems. The other thing is that it can be pretty difficult to leave Apple because the ecosystem is very "sticky". It takes a lot of work to free yourself from the Apple ecosystem. Your analogy is like comparing Macs to Windows PCs. The operating system makes the difference. Apple is the only company that makes Macs and iPhones. The fact that Apple is the only company that can make iPhones means that their price gouging is almost monopolistic. If an Android phone maker like Samsung overcharged for its phones, you could switch to another smartphone manufacturer and carry on without missing a beat, and the same applies to computers.

 

[LordVic]

And it also shows the difference between the two currencies. I also checked, and the $1,000 (USD) iPhone would be $1,213.97 Candadian. The difference between CAD and USD is around 22%.

yeah, but Apple (and a lot of other companies) pegged their prices at an arbitrary number, and don't tend to adjust as the dollar adjusts. Right now the iPhone 7 is 38% more expensive in Canada than the US.

base iPhone 7 is 899 CAD (before tax). which is equivelant to 740 USD. they're not pegging it against the USD, they're just using the USD conversion as a financial excuse to charge far more in other nations. it's an accounting trick to help keep margins appearing higher on USD financial statements, even if that money never ever enters the US.

so yes, the USD to CAD conversion is only 22% as of tday. But Apple has pegged their prices at nearly 40% markup. it was a huge shock to see that happen almost overnight about 2 years ago to. waking up one morning to see that the $650 iPhone was now going to cost 899 was a shock.

on top of that, I live in Ontario, and there's a 13% sales tax added on top. So that 899 is actually 1,015.87. And if I want Apple Care on that? we're talking closer to $1300 for an iPhone as is today.

So for a $999 USD iPhone, I full expect Apple to peg the Canadian price at $1450-$1500

My income didn't suddenly jump 40%. so that tech gadget has now become 40% less affordable

 

[Feenician]

you do know that there were a bunch of BOGO offers for the iphone 7 as well

They generally start somewhere in Q3 for iPhone, after the market is somewhat satiated and people start to wonder whether to wait for the next one. With Samsung flagships they start in, or around the end of, Q1.

 

[iamtheonlyone4ever]

well Tim might be right after all, apple products has changed the world and people lives
by making them broke and poor
while uncle scrooge swim on his fortune

 

[Pilgrim1099]

I respectfully disagree. Price gouging is price gouging regardless of the situation. If one company is charging significantly more than the other guys with no good reason, it's called price gouging. Especially since Apple is the only company that makes iPhones.

I think there is some level of price gouging going on with their iOS devices, even iPads. They sell phones at a premium and yet, when you look very carefully at the specs, they're high on storage and low on RAM. Especially when they're soldered unibody designs without a memory card slot to expand. On Android phones, it's possible and their specs are pretty much at relevant to today's standards with prices that are low to mid-range, and high end such as Pixel.

I got the SE after I had the iPhone 6 Plus two years ago. I love the large sized screen and wide keyboard that made it easier to text. But the storage was too small and I couldn't afford the 64 gb version. I needed more storage so I could dump my original iPod touch and move my playlist out of it. The iMac would not 'read' my iPod Touch as it was obsolete. So I decided to trade in the 6 Plus for credit and got the SE for a far cheaper price, getting the 64 gig version. I was then able to move my music playlist into it so that I can utilize the bluetooth feature.

The old iPod Touch didn't have BT which was a bummer. The SE, so far, has been the most practical phone I've had and easier to hold. But sometimes the text on screen is a bit hard to read since I have astigmatism ( far sighted ). On the other hand, the battery life on SE is fantastic.

It was priced reasonably for a phone that got the job done. Exactly what I needed. Apple's pricing is getting ridiculous and un-necessary. I don't have a smartphone with BS features but something that's practical and secure and well within pricing range.

But the rest of their phones are getting out of hand pricing-wise as they need to bring them down to be more accessible. People don't realize that since the subsidies from carriers are gone, it takes a longer time to pay off the phone that costs more than $600. The cheaper it is, the faster you can pay it off and the phone bill will drop significantly. Mine is about $20 a month and have about $260 left to pay off. If I pay it all off by winter time, when it drops nearly to $200 or under it, then the phone bill will drop to about $35 to $40 a month.

The carriers are pricing their monthly phone payments based on memory storage, if you look carefully but some people may not realize it.

 

[lazard]

They generally start somewhere in Q3 for iPhone, after the market is somewhat satiated and people start to wonder whether to wait for the next one. With Samsung flagships they start in, or around the end of, Q1.

The iPhone 7 began shipping September 16th, by December 16th, AT&T and T-Mobile were already offering BOGO.

 

[Feenician]

I think there is some level of price gouging going on with their iOS devices

You may want to find out what price gouging means. This isn’t it.

 

[mib1800]

It’s certainly a good thing for someone who waits to get one, yes. As long as they realize the reason demand tanks is because, when the hype dies down, you’re still dealing with a second rate device with feature list checkbox-itis.

Second rate device? Then iPhone must be 4th rate as it is always late to the game and playing catch up in specs.

 

[Feenician]

The iPhone 7 began shipping September 16th, by December 16th, AT&T and T-Mobile were already offering BOGO.

Nothing “free” about those offers. They are run by the providers, require extra lines on 2 year contracts and the “free” part is via monthly bill credits. They get their money and Apple gets their money.

This is Samsung having to give stuff away
https://www.androidcentral.com/thri...y-s8-s8-bogo-deal-infinitely-better-t-mobiles

Not saying this is not good for someone who wants these, by the way. It definitely is. It is, as a said, the law of supply and demand in action though. No demand? Give it away.
[doublepost=1505228183][/doublepost]

Second rate device? Then iPhone must be 4th rate as it is always late to the game and playing catch up in specs.

The iPhone 6s, now approaching 2 years old, is still faster than the Note 8 in many circumstances. The 7 destroys and it and the 8, released in a few days, well...

Feature list checkbox-itis is not “specs”

 

[Carnegie]

yeah, but Apple (and a lot of other companies) pegged their prices at an arbitrary number, and don't tend to adjust as the dollar adjusts. Right now the iPhone 7 is 38% more expensive in Canada than the US.

base iPhone 7 is 899 CAD (before tax). which is equivelant to 740 USD. they're not pegging it against the USD, they're just using the USD conversion as a financial excuse to charge far more in other nations. it's an accounting trick to help keep margins appearing higher on USD financial statements, even if that money never ever enters the US.

so yes, the USD to CAD conversion is only 22% as of tday. But Apple has pegged their prices at nearly 40% markup. it was a huge shock to see that happen almost overnight about 2 years ago to. waking up one morning to see that the $650 iPhone was now going to cost 899 was a shock.

on top of that, I live in Ontario, and there's a 13% sales tax added on top. So that 899 is actually 1,015.87. And if I want Apple Care on that? we're talking closer to $1300 for an iPhone as is today.

So for a $999 USD iPhone, I full expect Apple to peg the Canadian price at $1450-$1500

My income didn't suddenly jump 40%. so that tech gadget has now become 40% less affordable

(1) It's not an accounting trick. I've seen where others have tried to make that argument, but it doesn't reflect reality. Most of that money does go to the United States or to other places. It's used, e.g., to pay expenses elsewhere and thus must be converted to other currencies. That's a real world issue. Apple pays out considerably less in Canada (and in Canadian Dollars) than it takes in in Canada (and in Canadian Dollars). The difference effectively, and for the most part, has to be converted to some other currency.

(2) The difference you describe (899 CAD versus 649 USD for the 32 GB iPhone 7) doesn't represent the iPhone 7 being 38% more expensive in Canada. It represents the iPhone 7 being 14% more expensive in Canada. As you say, 899 CAD is roughly equivalent to 740 USD which is 14% more than 649 USD.

(3) The Canadian Dollar price of the iPhone 7 was based on the U.S. Dollar price (with small-sh rounding effects and considering exchange rate expectations). But that was done at the time it was priced, not today or yesterday. After an initial (foreign currency) pricing of a product, Apple typically maintains that pricing even after exchange rate fluctuations. If exchange rates change enough, and those changes last long enough, they'll eventually adjust pricing - assuming the product will continue to be offered. But even when exchange rates change such that a price increase (in the foreign currency) is justified, Apple often doesn't immediately put such a price increase in place. There have been times when various Apple products were effectively cheaper in foreign currencies because of exchange rate changes which Apple hadn't adjusted for yet. It works that way in both directions. Canadian Dollar pricing for Apple products announced today are likely to more closely (though of course not precisely) reflect the current exchange rate than the exchange rate from this time last year (when the iPhone 7 was priced).


EDIT: As an example of what I referred to in (3): In early 2016 the USD-CAD exchange rate climbed to about $1.45. It didn't stay that high for long. But did Apple adjust its iPhone 6S prices in Canada higher? No, so at that time iPhone 6S prices were effectively lower in Canada than they were in the United States. After the Brexit vote, when the value of the Pound dropped dramatically relative to the U.S. Dollar, did Apple immediately increase prices in England? No, it waited a while.

 

[mib1800]

The iPhone 6s, now approaching 2 years old, is still faster than the Note 8 in many circumstances. The 7 destroys and it and the 8, released in a few days, well...

Feature list checkbox-itis is not “specs”

Based on what? Those ridiculous and unreal speed tests that open app after app?

In the real world iPhone UI still cannot match scrolling speed of Android from a few years back. And slow animation. Iphone usage is clunky and unfriendly with many basic operations requiring more effort - double tap to open task manager, horrible centralized settings, toggles that do nothing other than toggle, back button that is hard to reach and many many more.

 

[LordVic]

(1) It's not an accounting trick. I've seen where others have tried to make that argument, but it doesn't reflect reality. Most of that money does go to the United States or to other places. It's used, e.g., to pay expenses elsewhere and thus must be converted to other currencies. That's a real world issue. Apple pays out considerably less in Canada (and in Canadian Dollars) than it takes in in Canada (and in Canadian Dollars). The difference effectively, and for the most part, has to be converted to some other currency.

(2) The difference you describe (899 CAD versus 649 USD for the 32 GB iPhone 7) doesn't represent the iPhone 7 being 38% more expensive in Canada. It represents the iPhone 7 being 14% more expensive in Canada. As you say, 899 CAD is roughly equivalent to 740 USD which is 14% more than 649 USD.

(3) The Canadian Dollar price of the iPhone 7 was based on the U.S. Dollar price (with small-sh rounding effects and considering exchange rate expectations). But that was done at the time it was priced, not today or yesterday. After an initial (foreign currency) pricing of a product, Apple typically maintains that pricing even after exchange rate fluctuations. If exchange rates change enough, and those changes last long enough, they'll eventually adjust pricing - assuming the product will continue to be offered. But even when exchange rates change such that a price increase (in the foreign currency) is justified, Apple often doesn't immediately put such a price increase in place. There have been times when various Apple products were effectively cheaper in foreign currencies because of exchange rate changes which Apple hadn't adjusted for yet. It works that way in both directions. Canadian Dollar pricing for Apple products announced today are likely to more closely (though of course not precisely) reflect the current exchange rate than the exchange rate from this time last year (when the iPhone 7 was priced).

trying to make a lot of excuses for a ******** practice.


And it still is a financial trick. I've used it myself. I know how it works. and regardless of how Apple and others come to their pricing, doesn't suddenly mean that the people in those countries incomes or purchasing power goes up with the cost change. as I said, the iPhone went from 650 CAD to 899CAD overnight. our incomes did not. it means that for Apple's financials, they're willing to make foreign iPhones 40% more unaffordable than they were before, because "USD"

 

[Feenician]

Based on what? Those ridiculous and unreal speed tests that open app after app?

Those. Every benchmark. If you reject every objective measure just because it doesn’t say what you want it to say then there’s little to talk about. The Apple A series of processors utterly dominate the mobile ARM world. There really is no debate.

“Scrolling speed”
That old chestnut. “Safari is slow and laggy because it scrolls slowly compared to the rest of the system!” Apple chose that scrolling speed as the default in Safari but, no more, it scrolls the same as the rest of the system in iOS 11 and that can be as fast as you want, way faster than you could possibly track.